Major Dormammu Revision

[Antvasima]

I do not think that you ever showed me scans for Dormammu being canonically powered-up to enormously higher levels due to the sheer act of Regenerationn, no.

Also, the Silver Surfer is still in the same tier after Annihilation, and it was not an outlier an infinite order of infinities above his usual scale. We should obviously discount that kind of thing.

 

[The_Impress]

Jesus Christ this is turning depressing...

Name Marvel profiles that do this incarnation thing, Tracer, and we'll accept it.

 

[Antvasima]

We will not accept this nevertheless. It is a ridiculously extreme outlier that would set a very bad precedent.

 

[LordTracer]

@Zark I literally just named The Silver Surfer... and I showed eleven examples of Dormammu canonically becoming stronger with every new incarnation. Also Nova's profile is based on him as Nova Prime, which can be considered a second incarnation. Then there's Quicksilver, who has an acknowledged amp in his speed stat, then there's Carol Danvers who very recently was accepted to have different levels of power in her classic and modern incarnations, Ultron has quite a lot of this, shall I go on?

@Ant I showed you eleven examples of him having incarnations... Can you at least explain why it's an outlier for Dormammu's final incarnation? Because out of the issues it appeared in, there were no anti-feats to contradict him being this strong that I didn't already explain.

 

[ByAsura]

Now, your points about my comment on Strange believing nobody can beat Dormammu... actually helps my case for him being High 1-B. If the LT consider universal destruction to not be relevant to him, and he wouldn't step in for universal destruction...

Then that should make Slorioth a genuine multiversal threat, no? Since the LT got involved and actively made the move to banish Slorioth. And since Dormammu is implied to have killed Slorioth...

The point was that he's not such a threat that Living Tribunal decided nobody else was stronger, he was just summoned. Basically, this isn't evidence for High 1-B.

Galactus would have devoured the cosmos, but even universal Eternity considered him a non-threat. So this doesn't prove Slorioth is a Multi-Eternity level threat. By the way, even basic abstract like the Celestials can destroy universes without being considered a threat to Eternity. Plus, Slorioth was only portrayed as Universal here.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, and what is "the cosmos," exactly? Slorioth was a threat that the LT had to step in for, that was the point I was making there. You said he apparently doesn't care about things on universal scale, so the fact that he actually did something would imply Slorioth is a threat to Multi-Eternity. Just going off of what you're saying.

 

[ByAsura]

The universe, but not time-space. Galactus wasn't portrayed that way in this comic, and pretty much everyone was depowered. That doesn't mean you can just jump to Multi-Eternity, also Slorioth is only portrayed as a threat to the universe (meaning a single part of Eternity) in this story. TLT even says "lone dimensionallity".

 

[LordTracer]

Then why'd LT actually do something against Slorioth? Also I just read through Secret Defenders #25 again, Slorioth wasn't merely portrayed as universal.

 

[ByAsura]

Maybe you should look my comment further. Also, it's because he's an actual threat to Eternity and not just the matter in a Universe.

 

[LordTracer]

As described by The Silver Surfer while fighting Slorioth; "And yet, what I sense before us is merely the most infinitesimal aspect of its entirety! A pandimensional gestalt far beyond the limited gifts of comprehension given mortal eyes and minds!"

 

[ByAsura]

And? Pandimensional is a very vague term that means "Of or pertaining to all dimensions of reality." The infantesmal aspect was the smaller creature the Defenders were fighting on Earth, not the one the Vishanti were facing. Being a regular 4-D being alone can also be beyond comprehension (in some cases there's even 3-D characters like that).

 

[Kepekley23]

The term "beyond comprehension" in Marvel has long since become synonymous with "baking cakes" at this point, with how often it is thrown.

 

[LordTracer]

I don't see how anything you showed limits him to being universal. In your first scan, Slorioth is stated to be ripping and tearing away at the fabric of creation. Your second scan does indeed say the mismanagement of resources would cost the universe, that isn't a limit placed on Slorioth.

And what does "all dimensions" sound like, hm? And Dormammu is implied to have killed the actual Slorioth, so... this isn't even a major point, just going by what you said of the LT not caring about universal threats, he wouldn't care about Slorioth unless he was multiversal.

 

[Kepekley23]

> LT not caring about universal threata.

Guess Korvac is no longer a thing.

 

[LordTracer]

I'm just going by what Asura said.

 

[Antvasima]

@ByAsura

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Kepekley23]

Sure, but he is wrong.

 

[Genericstickman]

> LT not caring about universal threata.

Guess Korvac is no longer a thing.

you're not wrong, his tier still hasn't been updated yet

 

[ByAsura]

That was a What If? Issue where Korvac had absorbed the power of tons of Abstracts and other cosmic beings and kept on changing the balance between Order and Chaos to the point where the latter was dwarfing the former. In the Korvac Saga, Universal Eternity alone saw his changes to the timeline as a non-threat, whereas Captain Marvel was able to see they were subtle, yet far reaching alterations that needed to be stopped.

Also, in the Doctor Strange Issue, TLT specifically said the Galactus issue did not concern good or evil. So I'm not wrong.

@Genericstickman I made a CRT to revamp Korvac a lot time ago, but it never went through.

I'm just going by what Asura said.

I basically said he wasn't a threat to Eternity and the Living Tribunal didn't care about the destruction of the universe by Galactus. I didn't say he doesn't always care about universal destruction, he clearly did with the Slorioth case.

 

[LordTracer]

"In a later Doctor Strange storyline, the Living Tribunal and universal Eternity consider universal annihilation to be of little consequence, it's sort of the same here."

Quoted directly from you. Also if Slorioth's aspect was only universal he wouldn't be a threat to Eternity.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, again, Galactus wasn't threatening Eternity because he wasn't even affecting time and space (or at least of the universe he was in, since his lack of presencewas affecting others due to being a universal constant). If you're going to quote me, get the context right.

 

[LordTracer]

It basically is all the context considering that's the only thing you said on that topic.

"Given that Multi-Eternity doesn't get involved in these kinds of events, Strange is most likely referring to the people of Earth and Universe 616, and maybe the M-Bodies and visualizations of Abstracts. Also, as Strange mentions, he would have killed Dormammu. In a later Doctor Strange storyline, the Living Tribunal and universal Eternity consider universal annihilation to be of little consequence, it's sort of the same here."

Also can you perhaps show scans that support your claim of Galactus not threatening Eternity specifically because he wasn't affecting space-time, and also explain what that has to do with Slorioth.

 

[ByAsura]

That first one refers to Dormammu and Multi-Eternity, it's completely incomparable to the second one by the context you're trying to add to it. This is on a much lesser scale, as it only concerned universal abstracts. By sort of the same, I meant the Korvac issue, which you didn't link. To be honest, I can't remember exactly what I meant at the time.

Eternity says that it's entirely possible for life to form after Galactus absorbs the Universe, and Eternity embodies universal time-space. Simple, Slorioth was affecting time-space and Eternity while Galactus wasn't.

It was to show that Slorioth isn't a multiversal threat or injuring Multiversal Eternity. Also, since the Tribunal does say dimension, this could also mean Heaven, Hell and all the nine realms.

Edit: Turns out I got the context wrong, nothing was going to be destroyed, just merged. But it still shows how little regard he has for the universe.

 

[LordTracer]

Whatever, Slorioth wasn't even a point in the OP anyways.

 

[ByAsura]

I was wrong. It was actually to show Dormammu isn't Multi-Eternity level from this scan.

 

[LordTracer]

I know, I'm mainly focusing on Defenders, Vol. 3 for that. And he's still weaker than Multi-Eternity regardless, just not to a massive extent as he did need the help of an amped Umar to kill Multi-Eternity, and that Umar was equal to him at the time. Still High 1-B, just on a lower end of it.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm going to read that whole volume. Those justifications for it being Multi-Eternity honestly aren't enough.

 

[Hykuu]

I just want to point out since literally everything else was debunked that, the 2005 Defenders run is ignored by continuity, as in the end of Issue 5, Umar still had the power of Multi-Eternity, but this was completely ignored by other runs and writers, and Dormammu returned to his normal power levels without Explanation.

Besides, In defenders, Dormammu and Umar needed: - A shift in the Cosmic Axis/Nexus of all Realities' Amp - Strange's amulet - A direct confirmation before the amp that they were literally infinitsmal in comparison to Multi Eternity until the Cosmic Axis shifted. - An off panel fight - PIS etcetera.

Meanwhile in Strange Tales it was just a dormammu who was angry asf, this is completely unscaleable

 

[LordTracer]

Dormammu didn't return to his normal levels, ever since the Defenders run Dormammu has been so much weaker than before. The Hood, with the full power of Dormammu and the Dark Dimension (albeit with little control over it) was struggling against the New Avengers of all people. And do I really have to explain how he has incarnations again to show there's always a reason for Dormammu regaining strength...

I saw nothing in Defenders that mentioned the Nexus of All Realities, it was solely the shift in the cosmic axis (and I already explained why that should still be considered an incarnation for Dormammu).

 

[Hykuu]

Okay why did you assume I wasn't referring to normal levels in relation to Modern Dormammu? Waste of a paragraph tbh, ignoring the fact you nitpicked what I said about Dormammu and not what I said Umar

here

Also it's literally a direct amp beyond belief which only was there for 3 issues why would it EVER be a different body dormammu has made to empower himself which is literally what his incarnations are?

 

[ByAsura]

I've looked at the Defenders issues, and they're very confusing as well as contradictory. But they all seem to more lean towards Multiversal Eternity. I'll post scans below, I'm just making sure this comment doesn't disappear as soon as I post it.

 

[LordTracer]

Because you didn't make it clear that you were...? If you meant Modern Dormammu then that's my bad. And yes, I saw your point about Umar, that's just an inconsistency with her (and honestly, she's inconsistent in general with how she scales in relation to Dormammu).

I don't see the NoAR mentioned at all there.

Because, as I look more into this, the incarnation of Dormammu they appeared in Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 is not the same one in Defenders Vol. 3, meaning Dormammu came back in a different incarnation, which is what we saw in Defenders Vol. 3.

 

[Hykuu]

>Inconsistency with her

>Direct continuity issue

??

"I don't see the NoAR"

>she literally says the nexus' energies

>they were all in the space between nexuses

??

Okay why can't that just be explained through continuity issues? The story itself was literally ignored by other writers aswell I don't see why not

 

[Hykuu]

I've looked at the Defenders issues, and they're very confusing as well as contradictory. But they all seem to more lean towards Multiversal Eternity. I'll post scans below, I'm just making sure this comment doesn't disappear as soon as I post it.

Yes but it being Multi Eternity means literally nothing and just helps what I'm trying to prove, check my initial comment

 

[ByAsura]

That's not what I'm referring to. Also, if he has an amp for the entire volume, why not add it?

Edit: Actually, I think amps with two people aren't allowed.

 

[ByAsura]

By the context of the issue, it seems the Eye and Nexus didn't actually amp Dormammu and Umar, it just allowed them to reach Eternity and increase their powers immensely by absorbing his. That's not to say they weren't amped heavily by the shift in the cosmic axis.

So here's the evidence for Multiversal

• Eternity's realm is called "a place that exists beyond all time and space, that transcends all levels of reality and dream."
• When Dormammu detonates Eternity's heard, he sees multiple universes even when he's just nearing it instead of percieving the whole thing.
• According to Doctor Strange, Eternity embodies everything on all levels of creation.

However, in this same issue Dormammu only takes over and remakes the universe in his image. But he later claims he could destroy the multiverse if he wanted, and Umar refers to the universe as small and unpalatable with Eternity's power. Later, Namor even ponders what kind of damage she could do to other universes.

Dormammu was significantly weakened after Umar took all of his power and amps from Eternity. That's not to say I agree with adding this, however.

 

[LordTracer]

>Inconsistency with her

>Direct continuity issue

??

"I don't see the NoAR"

>she literally says the nexus' energies

>they were all in the space between nexuses

??

Okay why can't that just be explained through continuity issues? The story itself was literally ignored by other writers aswell I don't see why not

Yes, it's inconsistent with Umar specifically as she clearly doesn't have Multi-Eternity's power anymore, I see nothing that implies it's an issue with overall continuity.

She says nexus energies as a way to describe the energy, not in a way that says it's coming from the NoAR. And nothing in the scan you gave says they're in the space between nexuses.

Because nothing implies it's a continuity issue? And there's already a canonical explanation for Dormammu returning stronger than he was before?

 

[Kepekley23]

Eternity's realm is Oblivionspace, just to clarify.

 

[LordTracer]

I thought it was called Overspace. Or is that something different?

 

[Kepekley23]

As clarified by Al Ewing's stories, it's a facet of Oblivion. I cant elaborate right now since Iam on the phone, but Marvel is in for some upgrades and moar 1-A characters soon.