Major Dormammu Revision

[LordTracer]

Except that's what is shown in the comics themselves. Defenders #1 reiterates how Dormammu is so much stronger than before, and reiterates him being pandimensional so many times.

No, I don't see why a High 1-B Eighth Incarnation Dormammu is, because you aren't giving any actual reasons as to why it is, nor showing anything that would contradict it.

For God's sake, can you stop trying to close the thread while not even paying attention to the other half of it? Especially when I'm still discussing with Zark?

 

[LordTracer]

Six times. Six times throughout the entirety of Dormammu's appearances in Defenders, even before he gets the power of Eternity, is he stated to be a genuine multiversal threat. Strange even explicitly says Dormammu is a threat to the entire multiverse. His eighth incarnation is simply at that level, there is nothing that contradicts that.

And before you say Dormammu could only recreate a universe with Multi-Eternity's power, that is contradicted throughout several statements in the story of Eternity's power, one of which is even used on his profile right now to justify the Marvel multiverse being High 1-B.

And before you mention Dormammu mentioning "all the universes" screaming his name, he's not putting that as a limit on himself, and that is directly shown to not be his limit as he then proceeds to kill Multi-Eternity alongside Umar and the idea of him still only being a threat to infinite universes is further contradicted by Strange directly calling Dormammu a threat to the entire multiverse, despite not being described as such in his prior 2-A incarnations.

Please, if you have any scans that would contradict Dormammu's eighth incarnation being this strong, go ahead and post them.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't remotely have the time to look for scans, but as Kepekley said, our Tiering System rules have changed. Being mentioned to be higher-dimensional is no longer enough to warrant being rated as many degrees of infinity above the actual demonstrated scale of a character.

In addition, Dormammu explicitly only recreated a single universe, and J.M. DeMatteis clarified this via Twitter long afterwards as well.

Also, it was never stated that Dormammu defeated Multi-Eternity (who had only been mentioned once previously in a late 1990s to early 2000s Fantastic Four story), just that Eternity was was far more than just a universe.

Mind you, I agree that it is clearly implied, but not explicitly spelled out, and it would be a massive outlier for Dormammu anyway.

 

[ByAsura]

Let's not be hasty with closing the thread, there's still the powers and abilities to address.

Reality Warping? (Outside of the Dark Dimension) - Revoked Thor's godhood and Iron Man's armor. (Unknown Incarnation)

Non-Corporeal? - Doctor Strange stated that physical force would not suffice against Dormammu. (Eighth Incarnation)

I've removed the ones that I agree with. The first part could just be Power Nullification or Magic. Even comparable beings, such as Mephisto, have been able to bypass Odin's enchantment on Mjolnir, so Dormammu should be capable of replicating this. Making Iron Man's armour disappear could just be Matter Manipulation. He already has all of these abilities outside of the Dark Dimension.

This has very little context. It could just mean there's no hero strong enough to stop Dormammu, depending on who he's talking to.

>"Doctor Strange, despite having knowledge of the likes of Multi-Eternity and even The Living Tribunal, believes that nobody can defeat Dormammu at full power."

Given that Multi-Eternity doesn't get involved in these kinds of events, Strange is most likely referring to the people of Earth and Universe 616, and maybe the M-Bodies and visualizations of Abstracts. Also, as Strange mentions, he would have killed Dormammu. In a later Doctor Strange storyline, the Living Tribunal and universal Eternity consider universal annihilation to be of little consequence, it's sort of the same here.

 

[LordTracer]

@Ant

I am well aware of the tiering system revisions. However, based on the fact that higher dimensions are already accepted as higher infinities for Marvel, I see no reason why this should randomly be considered any different.

I literally went over that in my last post. "And before you say Dormammu could only recreate a universe with Multi-Eternity's power, that is contradicted throughout several statements in the story of Eternity's power, one of which is even used on his profile right now to justify the Marvel multiverse being High 1-B." Also, Dormammu says numerous times that with Multi-Eternity's power, he would be lord of all creation, which very clearly does not mean universe because Dormammu is aware of the multiverse, he even directly mentions it.

It was Multi-Eternity for some very obvious reasons, and it wouldn't be an outlier for reasons I've already gone over:

1) Umar was assisting him (which would still be High 1-B, Dormammu just wouldn't completely be on Multi-Eternity's level of it)

2) 8th Incarnation Dormammu has no anti-feats to contradict this.

3) He is stated to be a genuine multiversal threat and pandimensional six times, before he even gains Eternity's power.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Just mentioning, higher spatial dimensions in Marvel should be higher infinities.

 

[LordTracer]

@Asura

Okay, your points about the reality warping and non-corporeality are fair.

Now, your points about my comment on Strange believing nobody can beat Dormammu... actually helps my case for him being High 1-B. If the LT consider universal destruction to not be relevant to him, and he wouldn't step in for universal destruction...

Then that should make Slorioth a genuine multiversal threat, no? Since the LT got involved and actively made the move to banish Slorioth. And since Dormammu is implied to have killed Slorioth...

 

[Antvasima]

As I mentioned earlier, I am leaning towards accepting the Eternity that Dormammu defeated as Multi-Eternity, but the feat is an extreme outlier, and we cannot scale from it, or assign different statistics keys to different storylines. Sorry.

As for higher dimensions in Marvel, they are extremely seldom treated as higher infinities, so I am opposed to scaling most cosmic entities as such in the first place, and think that our Marvel Comics statistics are partially very exaggerated.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, it is extremely unlikely that Doctor Strange was referring to the Living Tribunal rather than all of the regular Marvel superheroes.

 

[LordTracer]

I... literally... just explained why it's not an outlier... and as I already explained in the OP, it scales to literally nobody but Dormammu himself. And the incarnations are still canonical things that happened, I see no reason why they should not be applied when the idea was already accepted a long time ago. There is no reason to consider 8th Incarnation Dormammu as less than High 1-B, especially when it's reiterated that he is six times and there have been no scans shown that contradict that. You can't just call it an outlier and give no reasons as to why that's the case, especially when this incarnation scales to literally nobody.

 

[Antvasima]

Dormammu is usually, at best, portrayed as on the losing side of a battle with regular universal Eternity. Defeating the multiversal version would definitely be an outlier.

We are never going to accept this, and you are wasting time and energy that I do not have available. I would greatly appreciate if you drop this issue and do not ever mention it again.

 

[LordTracer]

8th Incarnation Dormammu never fought universal Eternity, so I don't know where you're getting that from. And again, I already gave reasons as to why it's not an outlier. If you want to call it an outlier, I'd love to see the scans for this incarnation that support that idea.

I see no reason to drop it when there hasn't been any reasons given to contradict Dormammu's eighth incarnation specifically being High 1-B, especially when I've shown that he is very consistently described on that level. You're still acting like I'm just trying to make Dormammu High 1-B all the way and that's not even close to what I'm doing. One of the suggestions in the OP even makes this perfectly clear; " Varies. 2-A to High 1-B based on the incarnatio." Unless scans are brought to contradict everything I've said for 8th Incarnation Dormammu, and the fact that he is stated to be a genuine multiversal threat six different times by three different characters, even before absorbing Multi-Eternity, I see absolutely no reason to stop debating this.

 

[Antvasima]

There are no "different incarnations". There is only one character that is handled inconsistently by different writers, and as is our usual praxis, we do not create different statistics keys for different storylines.

This entire argument is ridiculous and extremely tiresome and annoying. We should definitely preferably close the thread, and I would appreciate if you do not bother me about it ever again.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, a 2-A character is still a multiversal threat by most definitions.

 

[LordTracer]

That is a completely false statement that is contradicted by the comics themselves. When Dormammu gets destroyed, he comes back in a new form. This is pretty obvious, especially since damn near every time he returns, he gives an explanation as to how he's on a new scale of power and in a different form.

You can't just write it off like that and not give any legitimate reasons from the comics. And again, stop trying to close the thread when there's still the matter of his new abilities. With all due respect, just trying to close the thread and not giving any reasons from the comics whatsoever to contradict what I'm proposing just seems like an abuse of power.

Yet the Marvel multiverse is not a 2-A structure. It is a High 1-B structure. And this story portrays Dormammu as a threat to the entire multiverse, as I have made extremely clear and it has not yet been contradicted by any actual comic evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not recall Dormammu ever (much less consistently) stating that the act of Regenerationn itself grants him new incarnations with unfathomably higher degrees of power. He has occasionally powered-up by absorbing other entities or sources of power. That is all.

The Marvel multiverse is treated inconsistently by different writers. In one old early 1990s Doctor Strange story it was treated as having untold higher-dimensional realms. Most recently it has just been treated as a collection of universes that is possible to destroy by making them collide with each other.

 

[LordTracer]

He does it with basically every incarnation, actually. It's stopped after Umar drastically depowered him at the end of Defenders, Vol. 3, but it was absolutely a thing before then. Dormammu very consistently gives exposition on his reforming in new incarnations, and has done so in Strange Tales #172, Doctor Strange, Vol. 1 #7 (This one explicitly states each incarnation is different from the last), Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts #50, Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #1, Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #22, Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #49, and there's even more examples. His incarnations are absolutely canonical things.

Well, this Dormammu stuff happened before the likes of Chaos War, which further reiterated the multiverse being an infinite-dimensional structure. By the logic you've used yourself before, multiversal threats would scale to that portrayal of the multiverse and not the much more recent portrayals.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you post scans of those Regenerationn statements/upgrades please, and are you certain that they are not just Dormammu's standard boasting?

Regardless, my point is that just because the Marvel multiverse was stated to consist of higher infinities in one storyline, this does not mean that all other writers subscribe to, know about, and apply the same structure, and I am not going to budge regarding that defeating Multi-Eternity would be a massive outlier compared to all of his other demonstrations of power anyway.

You also still need to ask all of the other members that I mentioned earlier to comment here. I do not have the energy and focus to continue to argue for prolonged periods of time.

In any case, my apologies for being irritable. It is very stressful for me to handle prolonged arguments and lots of other tasks at the same time (likely at least partially due to the ADHD), and in addition I have turned triggered in general regarding Marvel upgrade threads that argue for exaggerated upgrades, due to likely dealing with a few hundred of them at this point.

 

[LordTracer]

Sure, it may take me a little while though. And I don't think it would be meant to just be hyperbole or Dormammu self-hyping considering how many times it's reiterated. And every time Dormammu states that he is stronger than before, it's while his new incarnation is weakened and he is slowly gaining more and more power, which should give more backing. Another thing that would give it backing that I'll try to find a scan for is Umar. She has several statements claim she is equal to Dormammu in his lesser incarnations, but Dormammu's... third, fourth or sixth incarnation, the exact one escapes me at the moment, was able to one-shot her, even when she was amped by the Flames of Regency.

I don't see why when I've shown either feats from the story that would put Dormammu at High 1-B. And there's more than just one story that puts the Marvel multiverse as a High 1-B structure, including Defenders Vol. 3.

I've asked several of them already.

Yes, it's alright. I suppose I can understand why it'd be irritating.

 

[LordTracer]

Here we go. Eleven different statements showing that Dormammu does indeed get vastly stronger with his differing incarnations, and some statements come from people other than Dormammu himself, showing it's not just self-hype.

- 1

- 2

- 3

- 4

- 5

- 6

- 7

- 8

- 9

- 10

- 11

 

[Antvasima]

Dormammu's most defining characteristic is his arrogance. He boasts a lot.

Defeating Multi-Eternity would still be a massive outlier. We cannot scale from it, and have already gone through this. As such, this thread will not lead anywhere, and it will only serve to give me less time to sleep, not anything else.

 

[LordTracer]

You haven't explained why it would be an outlier for his eighth incarnation though, nor have you addressed the six times Dormammu is stated in Defenders, Vol. 3 #1 - #2 to be a High 1-B being and a threat to the entire multiverse, which was defined in this story and even stories after to be High 1-B.

Again, this only scales to Dormammu in his eighth incarnatio. No other incarnations scales to it, and no other characters scale from this. Not Strange, not SHuman-Gorath, not Cyttorak, not Zom, nobody on the site scales to this. Only an amped Umar scales.

 

[Malomtek]

Shouldn't the multiversal Marvel abstracts be Low 1-A now anyway? I personally lean on at least 1-A(+) myself (with High 1-A for the Living Tribunal, Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man, Oblivion, and I believe several others), but that's for another thread entirely.

 

[Antvasima]

If this was the same series of issues in which he likely defeated Multi-Eternity, the entire story is an outlier in itself.

We will not add statistics for all of his supposed incarnations, we just made an estimation of some kind of "average" for his classical portrayal. That is all.

 

[LordTracer]

That makes no sense and contradicts how Dormammu himself is portrayed in the series though. And I'm not trying to add a key for every single one of his incarnations, my suggestions in the OP grouped several together at once or just put them all in one Varies key.

You can't just call the entire story and incarnation an outlier when literally nothing contradicts it and you haven't explained why it's an outlier specifically for his eighth incarnation. The definition of outlier, as listed on this site is; "an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power." High 1-B is not inconsistent with 8th Incarnation Dormammu. He has far more High 1-B statements than he does anything else, it's not an outlier via this site's own definition of the term.

 

[ByAsura]

@Asura
Now, your points about my comment on Strange believing nobody can beat Dormammu... actually helps my case for him being High 1-B. If the LT consider universal destruction to not be relevant to him, and he wouldn't step in for universal destruction...

Then that should make Slorioth a genuine multiversal threat, no? Since the LT got involved and actively made the move to banish Slorioth. And since Dormammu is implied to have killed Slorioth...

It was as much about Eternity as it was about the Living Tribunal.

Slorioth was directly summoned by the Vishanti here to confront this threat directly.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay...? I'm not sure what you're trying to get across there. Wouldn't that still help my point?

Do you mean the LT was summoned? And still, if he doesn't care about universal destruction then he just wouldn't do anything unless Slorioth was a threat to multiversal Eternity, right? And Dormammu would then scale above Slorioth.

Btw, I love your pfp. Isn't it from when Vegeta used the Final Flash and it left Earth?

 

[Antvasima]

We are not going to add several new statistics keys based on unofficial incarnations for Dormammu no matter what you say, and are especially not going to rate him as an infinity raised by infinity times stronger than usual, as it would be extremely umreliable and set a horrible precedent.

This remains a massive waste of time and energy. You should respect the staff decision, stop being argumentative, and let us close this thread without causing any problems.

 

[LordTracer]

It's literally three keys. At most. And I literally just gave eleven examples from the comics that show he has other incarnations, how the hell is it "unofficial?" And you still haven't shown me any reason from the comics as to why 8th Incarnation Dormammu shouldn't be High 1-B, nor have you explained why it would be unreliable when it scales to literally nobody.

I'm not being argumentative, I simply want actual in comic proof to contradict what I'm saying. I told you before, I have no intention to sit idly by and let something go through when there has been no evidence to support it. And once again, can you not close the thread when there's still the matter of the powers additions I suggested that have nothing to do with his tier?

Look, I get you're irritated. But can you please give an actual reason, supported with scans, to claim all of 8th Incarnation Dormammu's High 1-B feats are outliers, especially when they're the majority of his feats? Just trying to close the thread and not giving any actual evidence in opposition just looks bad on your part, especially when I've told you the run this incarnation appeared in so you can easily look for his feats.

 

[Antvasima]

He has one feat that could be argued to be High 1-B. Defeating what is heavily implied to be Multi-Eternity (but the entity was not clearly established at this point, so it isn't certain), in a setting that is one of the most extremely inconsistent in all of fiction regarding matchups between characters.

Apart from that his highest explicit feats involve merging individual universes together, which is just 2-C. He is only 2-A via scaling that is likely rather unreliable in itself.

Also, I work 12-14 hours a day trying to make sure that this wiki doesn't collapse. It isn't reasonable to demand that I should spend extra hours collecting scans, and highly argumentative and upgrade-thirsting people like yourself are recurrently depriving me of valuable sleep for no good reason long after I have made clear that their suggestions have been rejected as extremely exaggerated and unreliable, and are never going to go through.

I am starting to perceive you as the kind of member that does more harm than good by being in this wiki.

 

[LordTracer]

I showed you eight different times where Dormammu was stated to be pandimensional, the definition of which would mean High 1-B...

Uh, Dormammu literally has two 2-A feats on his profile right now. He is not 2-A just through scaling. I went over this when Marvel got upgraded to 2-A in the first place.

I'm just asking that you actually provide evidence for why this shouldn't happen. Is that so unreasonable? To want actual evidence instead of you just saying it's unreliable and exaggerated, and not giving a reason as to why it's either of those things despite being asked more than once?

Now, that's just rude and uncalled for. Shall I remind you that I helped out quite a bit with getting the Skyfathers to 2-C and was one of the main people that was involved in the Marvel 2-A upgrades? Just because I make one thread you don't like doesn't mean I shouldn't be here.

 

[Antvasima]

Marvel isn't consistent enough regarding its treatment of higher dimensions for that interpretation.

Has Dormammu been called pandimensional by any other writers than J.M. DeMatteis in one specific storyline?

Yes, it is unreasonable to demand that I spend 6 hours or more reading through every single Dormammu appearance to find scans on top of my regular staggering workload. I can't stand being forced to deal with these types of arguments to start with, and would much prefer if the other knowledgeable members would help me out, as I do not have enough time and energy.

You are currently being an intense pain relentlessly pushing for ridiculously extreme upgrades, and refuse to respect my decisions, despite that it is part of my job to make judgements regarding these types of issues, not yours, and that I have repeatedly explained myself, which prevents me from both focusing on more important tasks and getting enough sleep to work efficiently the next day, so no, I do not think that it is unwarranted.

I will soon have to close this thread due to sheer exasperation and overexertion. You are not allowed to continue to start new threads about the subject if that happens.

 

[LordTracer]

Just sleep, you don't need to compromise your health over this. There's already other people that have replied and Zark said she would make a response to Dormammu's eighth incarnation. You don't need to keep replying.

Look, I'm just going by what's on the site right now. And considering that a scan from this storyline is used here to support the Marvel multiverse being High 1-B...

This incarnation did not appear in any other storylines than Defenders, Vol. 3, so I don't see why that question is relevant. I think you're again confusing me saying Dormammu's eighth incarnation specifically is High 1-B with saying Dormammu is always High 1-B.

That's not what I'm asking you to do. I just want some form of actual in comic evidence to contradict my claims. I don't want you to read through every Dormammu story, I don't know where you got that idea from. Literally just Defenders, Vol. 3. There are only two issues in that run that have Dormammu without being amped by Eternity. Two issues. That's all you'd have to read. I asked for other knowledgeable members to help and was already having a discussion with Zark about this, she even said that she would create a response to Dormammu's 8th incarnation eventually.

It's still quite rude to say I shouldn't be here despite the several things I have assisted with here, not only with Marvel but DC as well.

Can you please just let the other people here reply and actually deal with the second half of the thread that you aren't acknowledging at all instead of just randomly closing it? Please? It really paints you in a bad light to just close the thread without giving scans to go against my claims, especially when there's people that are going to do so, at least in my opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

The thing is that, as far as I remember, the J.M. DeMatteis/Keith Giffen Defenders storyline did in fact portray Dormammu as High 1-B if we take it literally, and assume that Marvel is somehow always consistent in terms of cosmology and matchup scaling, and ignore the inconsistencies, such as the Hulk blowing out Dormammu's head, or only a single universe being affected by the latter's reality rewrite.

This does not change that we should not allow statistics keys for every single storyline. Our praxis is to simply treat this story's portrayal as a massive outlier, and if we start to afford Dormammu High 1-B statistics, this would be used as a precedent, and we would receive demands of upgrading plenty of other characters with usual much lower showings, such as the Celestials, Franklin Richards, and Ego, as well.

I would much prefer to let Kepekley23 and other staff members handle this, yes. You can ask my recommendations again if you wish.

In any case, you should definitely read and reread the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page, until you thoroughly understand our standard conventions.

 

[Hellbeast1]

It wouldn't scale to anyone though, as I went over. And it wouldn't be inconsistent, especially with Dormammu's eighth incarnation as he has no anti-feats or scaling against it.

It would likely scale to Skyfathers since he claims Zeus and Odin are equal to him

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, I'm gonna reply to that, you don't need to reply back immediately though. Please, I would rather you not compromise your health over this. Just sleep and maintain your health.

 

[LordTracer]

It would likely scale to Skyfathers since he claims Zeus and Odin are equal to him

Uh, Dormammu made no such claim in his eighth incarnation. He did so in his fifth incarnation, which is already contradicted as Dormammu's first and weakest incarnation was already far beyond the Skyfathers.

 

[LordTracer]

I explained those inconsistencies of the story. When Dormammu was clapped by Hulk, it was because Umar depowered him, and she did so way past Dormammu's normal levels. Umar was amped by Eternity when this happened, which is why she was able to do this. Dormammu had also willingly given up his portion of Eternity's power at this time. This was made explicitly clear, and earlier in the run Dormammu casually destroyed Hulk. And the idea of him only affecting a universe is also contradicted by several statements in the story and the statements referring to Dormammu's own power even without Eternity's power. Dormammu himself gave numerous statements about Eternity's power that would put him far above universal scale. Dormammu even explicitly stated that he would destroy the entire multiverse once he was done with Strange. Dormammu only being able to affect a universe is what's inconsistent with the rest of his portrayals throughout the run.

I know, that's not what I'm asking you to do. Dormammu canonically differs in power with each incarnation. This isn't the same as say, if Thor was portrayed as solar system level in one storyline and then only planetary in another and asking for a key for that. This is just asking that a canonical part of Dormammu's history that lasted throughout his entire classic history be treated as it is shown in the comics. Perhaps I should have included this in the OP, but you could put a note along the lines of;

Note: Dormammu canonically has several different incarnations that differ in power from each other. This is something exclusive to him, so please do not try to upgrade any other characters based on them being portrayed at a different level in different storylines. Similarly, do not try to upgrade any characters to High 1-B based on Dormammu's peak incarnation, no character in Marvel has any reason to scale to it apart from Multiversal Eternity, who was his superior, and an amped Umar, who was explicitly stated to be sharing in Dormammu's power.

I don't want you to make keys for every character having different portrayals in power in whatever storyline. I am only asking you do this for Dormammu because this is a canonical thing he does, which I gave eleven different examples showing that to be the case.

 

[Antvasima]

I have already explained that adding different power levels for different storylines goes against our standards and would set a terrible precedent in this case, as we would get constant demands of similar treatment for outliers for plenty of other characters as well. Again, this is not going to be accepted no matter what. I would much prefer if you could finally accept that and move on.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, but as I showed you, this is a canonical part of Dormammu. It's not even just for different storylines, it's for his different incarnations/forms. It's the exact same thing as the Dragon Ball characters having new keys for the different sagas, or The Silver Surfer having a new key for his power boost in Annihilatio. You were fine with Surfer getting it because it was a canonical power up, right? This was a canonical power up for Dormammu.

At this point, I'm just trying to get you to understand this isn't the same as, say, giving The Celestials a key for their typical appearances and then giving them a key for Ultimates. That's not what's happening here.