- 15,276
- 15,434
Might as well do this now, before I put it off any longer.
I doubt this will get accepted, but I'm going to try it anyways. This is a Dormammu revision, and an attempt to get him a consistent High 1-B incarnation.
This thread will go over Dormmamu's first, second, third, fifth and eighth incarnation, the eighth being Dormammu's absolute peak before canonically being depowered to the levels he shows nowadays.
First Incarnatio
Dormammu's original and weakest incarnation first appeared in Strange Tales #126 and was destroyed in Strange Tales #146.
- The Ancient One, even at his peak, could not defeat Dormammu.
- Dormammu is far stronger tha Doctor Strange.
- Dormammu threatens to destroy the Dark Dimension in his rage. The DD has "worlds beyond counting" and has been stated to have more dimensions than man's universe.
- Dormammu managed to seal a sleeping Eternity and attempted to fight him, although he was clearly inferior. Something notable is that in a Marvel handbook (the exact name escapes me atm), the Eternity that faced Dormammu here is treated as the same Eternity that was in Defenders #3, which would make this Multi-Eternity, not Universal Eternity.
Conclusion: The majority of Dormammu's feats in this incarnation are 2-A. His Dark Dimension feat is potentially Low 1-C, and the Eternity one could be considered High 1-B if you take the guidebook into account. Although even then, it wouldn't really be High 1-B AP as Dormammu was portrayed as significantly beneath Eternity in this scenario. However, it would be High 1-B Sealing.
Overall, I would consider Dormammu's AP in his weakest incarnation to be 2-A.
Second Incarnatio
After returning following his supposed death during his fight with Eternity, Dormammu reappeared in Strange Tales #171 and was absorbed into the Evil Eye in Defenders, Vol. 1, #118. In this incarnation, he has less statements than his first one, but the statements are of greater scale.
- Dormammu stated that he would hold sway over all dimensions. Considering the previous scan showing that the Dark Dimension had higher dimensions, and Dormammu originally came from the Faltine realm, which has more dimensions than the Dark dimension, it is very likely that he meant higher dimensions and wasn't using dimension as a synonym of universe.
- The above statement is supported by Doctor Strange stating that surrendering to Dormammu would put all dimensions at stake.
Conclusion: Both of these statements could be lowballed to 2-A, but considering the knowledge that both Dormammu and Doctor Strange have of higher-dimensional realms such as the Dark Dimension, the highball of High 1-B could actually be plausible.
Third and Fifth Incarnations
I only have one thing for Dormammu in his third incarnation, so I'll combine it with his fifth, which has a statement supporting the one in his third. Dormammu's third incarnation lasted from Doctor Strange, Vol. 1, #6 to Ghost Rider, Vol. 1, #36, and his fifth lasted from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #1 to Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #2
- Doctor Strange stated that, if he reached his peak, Dormammu could challenge the Celestials. This is supported by Dormammu in his fifth incarnation stating that once he reached his apex, he would be able to destroy all the Celestials.
- Dormammu gained all the power and spells of Doctor Strange, and this is reiterated here. He kept all of these in his next incarnations, in fact, his sixth incarnation explicitly said all he lost was Strange's body. He kept his memories and everything else.
Conclusion: The statements here are only 2-A, though you could perhaps consider the Celestials statements higher when you consider that they do possess High 1-B weaponry...
Eighth Incarnatio
This is Dormammu at his absolute strongest, and later he became stronger by absorbing Eternity. While him absorbing Eternity is an amp, it should be noted that this is the strongest Dormammu has ever been and by the end of the storyline this happened in, Dormammu was canonically depowered past even his typically shown levels. As such, I believe it can be included here. This incarnation lasted from Amazing Spider-Man, Vol. 2 #57 to Defenders, Vol. 3, #5.
- Doctor Strange, despite having knowledge of the likes of Multi-Eternity and even The Living Tribunal, believes that nobody can defeat Dormammu at full power. Note: Obviously this wouldn't mean Dormammu is superior to The Living Tribunal, that would be asinine. But it would support him being on the High 1-B level.
- Dormammu has a pandimensional army under his control, and he is stated to be pandimensional quite a few times during Defenders #1.
- Albeit with Umar's help, Dormammu was able to kill Multi-Eternity, and upon bathing in his essence, he would become lord of all creation. And as Dormammu stated Eternity was the most powerful being in the multiverse, that should confirm that it was indeed Multi-Eternity and not Universal Eternity.
- As Dormammu now has Eternity's power, the statements of dimensions folding into themselves (which is only a fraction of this power) and his core trigger another creation event should apply to this incarnatio.
- Furthermore, Eternity is stated to have infinite energy and to be the complete embodiment of everyone and everything on all levels of creation. Of course, since Dormammu has Eternity's power, this would scale to him.
Dormammu was only defeated at this point after being tricked into giving up Eternity's power, plus Umar was draining his power, and she did so far past Dormammu's typical levels of power. I believe this is what led to "Modern Dormammu," and his much weaker portrayal.
Conclusion: Dormammu's eighth and strongest incarnation is pretty obviously High 1-B, and even before he absorbed Multi-Eternity's energies, High 1-B for Dormammu's eight incarnation would be consistent with all the High 1-B showings in his weaker incarnations.
Final Proposals
Dormammu is given a Varies tier. His weaker incarnations are 2-A, and would be ranked as such. His strongest incarnation would be High 1-B. Overall:
"Varies. 2-A to High 1-B based on the incarnation."
Or… his tiers could be arranged as:
Tier: 2-A | High 1-B | High 1-B
Key: First, Third and Fifth Incarnations | Second and Eight Incarnations | After absorbing Multiversal Eternity's essence
Now, I know a concern here will be scaling. But the only people that scale to Dormammu are Zom, Cyttorak and SHuman-Gorath. These are non-issues because Cyttorak's page is just out of date in general, and Zom and SHuman don't scale to either of Dormammu's High 1-B incarnations. As such, this shouldn't cause any scaling issues.
Powers and Abilities
This is much more minor than the tier revisions, but still necessary as Dormammu is missing quite a few powers.
Power Nullification - Doctor Strange gets weaker just from Dormammu manifesting near him. (Second Incarnation)
Sleep Manipulation - Created a potion that put the Mindless Ones to sleep. (Unknown Incarnation)
Higher-Dimensional Manipulation - Dormammu's clash with Eternity caused a transdimensional holocaust. (First Incarnation)
Reality Warping? (Outside of the Dark Dimension) - Revoked Thor's godhood and Iron Man's armor. (Unknown Incarnation)
Cosmic Awareness/Precognition - Has "mystic senses", and nothing approaches the Dark Dimension without him knowing. (Unknown Incarnation)
Non-Corporeal? - Doctor Strange stated that physical force would not suffice against Dormammu. (Eighth Incarnation)
Mind Manipulation - Controlled Scarlet Witch. (Second Incarnation)
Every single ability Doctor Strange (Classic) has - As shown in the scans above, Dormammu gained all of the powers and memories of Doctor Strange, and never lost them in his later incarnations. So, he should have every power that Strange has. (Fifth Incarnation)
I doubt this will get accepted, but I'm going to try it anyways. This is a Dormammu revision, and an attempt to get him a consistent High 1-B incarnation.
This thread will go over Dormmamu's first, second, third, fifth and eighth incarnation, the eighth being Dormammu's absolute peak before canonically being depowered to the levels he shows nowadays.
First Incarnatio
Dormammu's original and weakest incarnation first appeared in Strange Tales #126 and was destroyed in Strange Tales #146.
- The Ancient One, even at his peak, could not defeat Dormammu.
- Dormammu is far stronger tha Doctor Strange.
- Dormammu threatens to destroy the Dark Dimension in his rage. The DD has "worlds beyond counting" and has been stated to have more dimensions than man's universe.
- Dormammu managed to seal a sleeping Eternity and attempted to fight him, although he was clearly inferior. Something notable is that in a Marvel handbook (the exact name escapes me atm), the Eternity that faced Dormammu here is treated as the same Eternity that was in Defenders #3, which would make this Multi-Eternity, not Universal Eternity.
Conclusion: The majority of Dormammu's feats in this incarnation are 2-A. His Dark Dimension feat is potentially Low 1-C, and the Eternity one could be considered High 1-B if you take the guidebook into account. Although even then, it wouldn't really be High 1-B AP as Dormammu was portrayed as significantly beneath Eternity in this scenario. However, it would be High 1-B Sealing.
Overall, I would consider Dormammu's AP in his weakest incarnation to be 2-A.
Second Incarnatio
After returning following his supposed death during his fight with Eternity, Dormammu reappeared in Strange Tales #171 and was absorbed into the Evil Eye in Defenders, Vol. 1, #118. In this incarnation, he has less statements than his first one, but the statements are of greater scale.
- Dormammu stated that he would hold sway over all dimensions. Considering the previous scan showing that the Dark Dimension had higher dimensions, and Dormammu originally came from the Faltine realm, which has more dimensions than the Dark dimension, it is very likely that he meant higher dimensions and wasn't using dimension as a synonym of universe.
- The above statement is supported by Doctor Strange stating that surrendering to Dormammu would put all dimensions at stake.
Conclusion: Both of these statements could be lowballed to 2-A, but considering the knowledge that both Dormammu and Doctor Strange have of higher-dimensional realms such as the Dark Dimension, the highball of High 1-B could actually be plausible.
Third and Fifth Incarnations
I only have one thing for Dormammu in his third incarnation, so I'll combine it with his fifth, which has a statement supporting the one in his third. Dormammu's third incarnation lasted from Doctor Strange, Vol. 1, #6 to Ghost Rider, Vol. 1, #36, and his fifth lasted from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #1 to Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #2
- Doctor Strange stated that, if he reached his peak, Dormammu could challenge the Celestials. This is supported by Dormammu in his fifth incarnation stating that once he reached his apex, he would be able to destroy all the Celestials.
- Dormammu gained all the power and spells of Doctor Strange, and this is reiterated here. He kept all of these in his next incarnations, in fact, his sixth incarnation explicitly said all he lost was Strange's body. He kept his memories and everything else.
Conclusion: The statements here are only 2-A, though you could perhaps consider the Celestials statements higher when you consider that they do possess High 1-B weaponry...
Eighth Incarnatio
This is Dormammu at his absolute strongest, and later he became stronger by absorbing Eternity. While him absorbing Eternity is an amp, it should be noted that this is the strongest Dormammu has ever been and by the end of the storyline this happened in, Dormammu was canonically depowered past even his typically shown levels. As such, I believe it can be included here. This incarnation lasted from Amazing Spider-Man, Vol. 2 #57 to Defenders, Vol. 3, #5.
- Doctor Strange, despite having knowledge of the likes of Multi-Eternity and even The Living Tribunal, believes that nobody can defeat Dormammu at full power. Note: Obviously this wouldn't mean Dormammu is superior to The Living Tribunal, that would be asinine. But it would support him being on the High 1-B level.
- Dormammu has a pandimensional army under his control, and he is stated to be pandimensional quite a few times during Defenders #1.
- Albeit with Umar's help, Dormammu was able to kill Multi-Eternity, and upon bathing in his essence, he would become lord of all creation. And as Dormammu stated Eternity was the most powerful being in the multiverse, that should confirm that it was indeed Multi-Eternity and not Universal Eternity.
- As Dormammu now has Eternity's power, the statements of dimensions folding into themselves (which is only a fraction of this power) and his core trigger another creation event should apply to this incarnatio.
- Furthermore, Eternity is stated to have infinite energy and to be the complete embodiment of everyone and everything on all levels of creation. Of course, since Dormammu has Eternity's power, this would scale to him.
Dormammu was only defeated at this point after being tricked into giving up Eternity's power, plus Umar was draining his power, and she did so far past Dormammu's typical levels of power. I believe this is what led to "Modern Dormammu," and his much weaker portrayal.
Conclusion: Dormammu's eighth and strongest incarnation is pretty obviously High 1-B, and even before he absorbed Multi-Eternity's energies, High 1-B for Dormammu's eight incarnation would be consistent with all the High 1-B showings in his weaker incarnations.
Final Proposals
Dormammu is given a Varies tier. His weaker incarnations are 2-A, and would be ranked as such. His strongest incarnation would be High 1-B. Overall:
"Varies. 2-A to High 1-B based on the incarnation."
Or… his tiers could be arranged as:
Tier: 2-A | High 1-B | High 1-B
Key: First, Third and Fifth Incarnations | Second and Eight Incarnations | After absorbing Multiversal Eternity's essence
Now, I know a concern here will be scaling. But the only people that scale to Dormammu are Zom, Cyttorak and SHuman-Gorath. These are non-issues because Cyttorak's page is just out of date in general, and Zom and SHuman don't scale to either of Dormammu's High 1-B incarnations. As such, this shouldn't cause any scaling issues.
Powers and Abilities
This is much more minor than the tier revisions, but still necessary as Dormammu is missing quite a few powers.
Power Nullification - Doctor Strange gets weaker just from Dormammu manifesting near him. (Second Incarnation)
Sleep Manipulation - Created a potion that put the Mindless Ones to sleep. (Unknown Incarnation)
Higher-Dimensional Manipulation - Dormammu's clash with Eternity caused a transdimensional holocaust. (First Incarnation)
Reality Warping? (Outside of the Dark Dimension) - Revoked Thor's godhood and Iron Man's armor. (Unknown Incarnation)
Cosmic Awareness/Precognition - Has "mystic senses", and nothing approaches the Dark Dimension without him knowing. (Unknown Incarnation)
Non-Corporeal? - Doctor Strange stated that physical force would not suffice against Dormammu. (Eighth Incarnation)
Mind Manipulation - Controlled Scarlet Witch. (Second Incarnation)
Every single ability Doctor Strange (Classic) has - As shown in the scans above, Dormammu gained all of the powers and memories of Doctor Strange, and never lost them in his later incarnations. So, he should have every power that Strange has. (Fifth Incarnation)
