Lunarian Gods Touhou Revisions

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This post mainly concerns the higher ups of the Gods. Lunarians and such.

Yatagarasu, Okuu and superior Gods
Yatagarasu is currently rated as Low 4-C for its feat of having all the Sun spots of the sun being simply part of its body. Needless to say, this would make it at least as large as the Sun. (Just look at any pics of the sun with multiples sunspots). I originally rated it as being Low 4-C for lowball purpose, but I think that this would instead be a solid 4-C. This is consistent with it being called the Personification of the sun, and its sheer existence maintaining the sun.

Given that Yatagarasu is merely an avatar of a greater god (Namely, Amaterasu), this would put most higher gods at "At least 4-C" instead of solely 4-C.

Related to my above point, Reiuji Utsuho should get full scaling from Yatagarasu. Okuu was mentioned multiple times that she absorbed the god into herself, and is capable of using its powers. Moreover, it was also stated that Okuu is an extremely efficient host for Yatagarasu, and that actually releasing the full power of Yatagarasu is far easier than to contain it. There is such no reasons for her to NOT scaling to the god's full power.

Yatagarasu: Likely at least Low 4-C -> 4-C

Utsuhuo: At least 5-A -> 4-C

Houyi, Junko: 4-C -> At least 4-C

Solid 4-C Tiering for Watatsukis + Dragon God
In my opinion, the Watatsukis Sisters (And Eirin by proxy) should be upgraded to outright 4-C.

• Yorihime is the leader in term of the defenses of the Moon. If there is anyone who could have stopped Junko, it would have been her. The Moon certainly didn't defend themselves by Zerg Rushing Junko with Rabbits to defeat her.
• The Watatsukis are quite high ranking members of the Lunar Society. It makes little sense for them to be so low in power compared to the mere avatar of one of the gods there. They're also part of the military, further proving that they should be high in power.
• Eirin was one of the highest ranking person on the moon, second to Lord Tsukuyomi. Again, that should put her at the very least above a simple avatar like Yatagarasu.

Secondly, the Dragon God should likely be scaled to basic gods of the Lunarian society. In the interview for SoPM, it is revealed that the "Dragon Palace" that the Dragon God resides in is actually the Lunar Capital. Indicating that the Dragon God is another god resident of the Capita. This position would put him at least above Yatagarasu (And Okuu).

Watatsuki no Toyohime, Watatsuki no Yorihime, Eirin Yagokoro: At least 5-A, possibly 4-C -> At least 4-C

Dragon God: At least 5-A, likely far higher -> 4-C (Possibly "At least" too)

Highest of the Gods Tier
This is perhaps the most controversial part of this edit. But still.

This applies to Lord Tsukuyomi and Hecatia Lapislazuli. Possibly to Eirin and Amaterasu, but I'm less sure. First of all, given the huge gap between Amaterasu and her avatar, who is casually 4-C, and given the extremely small size of 4-C, I think that Hecatia and Tsukuyomi would benefit from being High 4-C, just on how much they're superior to the Yatagarasu.

Secondly, the actually controversial part, I think that the highest gods of the Moon should at the very least partially scale to Amitabha (Touhou Project). Yes, THE Amitabha.

This was originally rejected, due to the unknown position of Buddhist gods in the verse. However, a few circumstances might change this. In the same SoPM interview mentioned above, ZUN stated that the Lunar Capital is home to the Highest gods of the verse. Here is the actual statement:

"My thought is that the Lunar Capital is where the highest, noblest gods live. On the other hand, Gensokyo is where the more friendly, indigenous gods live. I figured that there are factions even among gods. Eirin is one of them, which is why she isn't interacting with the other humans after she moved to Gensokyo."

Not only that, but it's more-or-less confirmed that even popular buddhist gods like Bishamontent lives on Earth. Indicating that they're below the Moon pantheon in status. Or at the very least, higher up gods like Amitabha are part of the Moon pantheon. Beside, there isn't any confirmed "higher level" above the Moon in term of God pantheon (Except Hell),and I doubt that Amitabha would live on his own.

For the sake of Lowball, I'd recommend scaling only the top gods of the Moon to Amitabha. These being Tsukuyomi and possibly Eirin and Amaterasu. Hecatia would naturally scale. I'm not sure to include Eirin, as she isn't usually portrayed as being this godly powerful, and Amaterasu being comparable to Tsukuyomi isn't clear. But given how large the gap is... (Also, this would make Yorihime "possibly 3-A" via summoning.)

Tsukuyomi and Hecatia (Possibly Eirin & Amaterasu): At least 4-C -> High 4-C, possibly 3-A

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bump-a-bump-a-bump-a-di-doo

 

[Fllflourine]

I agree with:

-Yatagarasu and Utsuho scaling to 4-C, as well as Houyi and Junko being ranked above them at At least 4-C (Since Yatagarasu is just a lower avatar of Amaterasu, one of the top gods)

-Watatsukis and Dragon God being At least 4-C, and Eirin scaling to them as well. The Watatsukis were former students of her afterall, in addition to Yagokoro being co-founder of the Lunar Capital. SoPM indeed confirms that the Dragon Palace is the Lunar Capital, though what position Ryujin occupies in the Lunarian Deity power-chain I'm not entirely sure.

I do not agree with/not sure about:

-Bumping Tsukuyomi and Hecatia with the possibility of Eirin and Amaterasu also, to High 4-C, possibly 3-A. I'm skeptical on bumping up someone a tier simply because they are way stronger than someone else, without a specific number. Though, they'd probably still scale to Amitabha.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Thanks for Flo being less lazy than me and actually providing the sources.

Well we did bump in Tier several times for other profiles here. KLK reaching High 7-A via scaling to a bunch of 7-As, OPM reaching 7-A from 7-B, Guilty Gear reaching 4-B from scaling from High 4-C and more infamously, DBZ with its Low 4-C/4-C/High 4-C scaling from High 5-A. Given that the gap between 4-C and High 4-C is just 2.33, we would need to assume that both Hecatia and Tsukuyomi are less than 3 times as strong as a simple avatar of Amaterasu.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I am siding with Saik on all...except for the 3-A stuff. Actually, some of the stuff you provided could lead to a (probably failed attempt of a) downgrade of Amitabha.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Why tho? It certainly isn't an outlier, given that the 4-C feats come from a bottom-of-the-line God who did it casually anyway (There is Houyi, but his feats could be upward of 4-A anyway)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree about the 3-A stuff. It's ridiculous to scale characters whos best feats are 4-C to a vague figure who never appeared and is only mentioned in one line of a OST side story.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The 4-C feat comes from a much weaker character (Yatagarasu) and from a character with an unknown rating within the series (Houyi). It shouldn't be used to limit any higher feats.

Said storyline is part of a full side series that is as canon and as important as any others.

Beside, most of these characters are also vague backstory characters that only appeared for a few lines.

 

[Fllflourine]

Well we did bump in Tier several times for other profiles here. KLK reaching High 7-A via scaling to a bunch of 7-As, OPM reaching 7-A from 7-B, Guilty Gear reaching 4-B from scaling from High 4-C and more infamously, DBZ with its Low 4-C/4-C/High 4-C scaling from High 5-A. Given that the gap between 4-C and High 4-C is just 2.33

On second thought, yea, after checking the AP chart the gaps between 4-C's low and high end is very narrow, and High 4-C is much, much. less of a jump than 3-A.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yee, only 2.33~

Seriously though. The 3-A stuff is literally just scaling God Tiers to someone who has no reasons to be a god tier. Mentioning feats below it (4-C and such) doesn't help the argument.

 

[Promestein]

First two things seem fine, as does bumping to High 4-C.

I'm uncertain about 3-A stuff. It's still vague and outlier-y.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I can agree with it being somewhat vague, but it's far from an outlier, considering that this only concerns the very top tier of the verse, who are only 4-C via scaling from weaker characters.

 

[ALRF]

For the Yatagarasu, Okuu,superior Gods and Solid 4-C Tiering for Watatsukis + Dragon God alongside the High 4-C are something that i can agree on completely.

Also i don't see why people think of the possibly 3-A being an outlier, we have being given clear statements about the Moon Gods being stronger then Earth inhabited Gods , so i don't see why Hecatia and Lord Tsukoyomi cannot scale to Ami... don't know about Eirin and Amaterasu thought.

 

[Fllflourine]

After thinking about it, "possibly 3-A" looks reasonable now; it's been stated by ZUN himself that the gods of the Moon rank above the gods of Earth/Gensokyo, and it's very unlikely Amitabha works alone; given a god being 3-A by being so large, he is almost certainly in the Lunarian Pantheon. Tsukuyomi rules over the Moon, and thus should be > Amitabha, and since Hecatia (and the other Hell Deities by extension, but none of them are revealed yet) are beyond the level of anyone of the Lunar Capital and Gensokyo, she scales, too.

Amaterasu, goddess of the Sun (and of the universe), and empress of the heavens is one of the top gods, being vastly above her brother in Japanese mythology, which is something Touhou bases much of it's mythos on. There isn't much information on the incarnation we see in Touhou, but I doubt even in Touhou that Amaterasu is weaker than her brother, I see her being more likely to be 3-A than Eirin, though Eirin is the co-founder of the Lunar Capital, so she still should receive a "possibly 3-A" at least.

tl;dr: Yes, I agree with the 3-A scaling now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't.

You are being so willing to get the Touhous to 3-A you want to do scaling based on a vague non-entity that only has 2 lines of a dialogue in the most side-story material imaginable, and a vague line from ZUN.

Scale the characters by their feats and reliable scaling from characters that actually exist in Touhou.

"moon is home to highest gods" is only being said to mean that the moon is home to gods more highly important than Gensokyo's. Wanna know where the highest Shinto Gods live? In the Plain of High Heaven, which is where Amaterasu is.

It's highly unlikely that Touhou doesn't follow that. Also, Amitabha is a Chinese Buddha, why are you scaling Shinto Deities to it?

Going by things such as the Lotus Sutra and Journey to the West, Buddhas are >>>>>>>>>> Everything else in Chinese Myth. Even the Jade Emperor is fodder to Buddha.

The only being I can agree to scaling to this is Amaterasu.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"It's highly unlikely that Touhou doesn't follow that" Touhou has messed with their Mythologies more than once. It's generally accurate, but that doesn't stop it from having its own characters and mythology.

You keep exageratting how "side story" the statement is from, yet it's from a totally canon and long-running series that has consistently been the central source for factual information for the verse. Even if the entity is vague, it doesn't stop it from existing. Hell, they use its size to prove a point about "Paradise" being far larger than Hell, and accept it as fact.

There isn't any other places for Gods to live though. Touhou has always followed one set of mix-matched Cosmology. It doesn't have a "Buddhist Heaven" and a "Shintoist" Heaven. It's all one in the same, such as Hecatia (A Greek god) ruling over an otherwise clearly Eastern based Hell. There is no mention at all of another dwelling place for Gods other than the Moon or such. Don't bring up unrelated cosmology from the original Myth when it hasn't shown to exist.

Not sure how this is a point. Like I said, Touhou mixes deities all the time, their origin doesn't change how they should be scaled. Hell, in Touhou, Buddahs are considered equivalent to more Shinto Gods. They clearly aren't treated as being massively superior to everything else, like in the original myth.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Touhou has messed with their Mythologies more than once.

That doesn't matter, you are assuming that the Sun Goddess lives in the moon when there's no evidence she does. It's far more reasonable to assume she lives in the sun.

If there's only one Heaven, why do you say that Heaven and Paradise are different to justify the disparity between the stated size of Heaven and Amitabhas size?

Prove that Amitabha even exists, and is as large as the heresay about him is accurate? He isnt a character, he isn't a side character or even a terciary character at this point. He's a line. A speculatory line of dialogue. He shouldn't have a page not should anyone scale to him.

Even Hieda no Akyuu's wild speculations about Yukari's true power are more legit since they come from a character who actually knows Yukari.

Also Amitabha is an even bigger Outlier for Touhou than baseline 3+A stuff is for Kirby. No amount of "casual feats" argument would make such a leap in tiers, based on such a vague non-character and using a generally out of context line as support.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

>3-A Kirby outlier

Triggered

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And you're using that assumptions to justify that an unrelated god lives...somewhere else.

It uses a different word than all the other times "Heaven" has been used, on top of the Lunar Capital often being considered a sort of Heaven in the past. Numerous characters considered the Lunar Capital to be the "Dragon Palace" once they saw it (Though they're both the same)

Being vague never stopped anyone from being a character. If you want to be technical, Amitabha was mentioned two other times, both treated as an in-universe diety. Though in rather short ways again.

You're using feats from weaker characters to prove that God Tiers shouldn't scale to another character. It just doesn't work that way. Yatagarasu is a mere avatar.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

2 vague lines of dialogue mentioning that existing isn't evidence it actually does not that it is as big as hearsay says it is. A big thing in Touhou is information not being 100% accurate.

It is also an Outlier for the whole verse. Doesn't matter if there are other characters who should scale (they shouldn't, you are using an out of context interview quote + headcanons), if the absolute best feat of the verse is 4-C, they aren't scaling to something bazillions of times baseline 3-A.

Mere avatar doesn't mean much if we don't know how stronger Amaterasu is. High 4-C is as far as she goes.

 

[Fllflourine]

In this case, seeing as I (and probably you two as well) really don't want this argument to continue over "possibly 3-A" and Amitabha, how about we implement the changes in OP (Barring "Possibly 3-A") and reserve that for a future thread? (Or just cancel that altogether) That is, if the a-ok sign is given.

 

[Antvasima]

Fllflourine probably has the most peaceful solution to this. Please try to get along as well as you can. The community is in a sensitive state.

 

[Sera_EX]

I agree with Flo, "Possibly 3-A" and leave it at that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Juggerton]

I agree with most of this except for probably Okuu.For me,it doesn't make any sense to rank up Okuu since there will be some scaling around her.


PS:I am fine with Yucurry scaled or even superior to her however xD

 

[Juggerton]

Bump God!

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I agree with basically everything bar universal Eirin and such.

 

[Fllflourine]

@Juggerton

Explain what you mean about some scaling around Okuu.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Fllflourine probably has the most peaceful solution to this. Please try to get along as well as you can. The community is in a sensitive state.

Só do I. I agree with settling down for a Possibly 3-A.

 

[Juggerton]

@Juggerton
Explain what you mean about some scaling around Okuu.

Idk lol.i forgot who was stated to be > her

Is Former hell part of Gensokyo?Or at least inside of the barrier?

 

[Juggerton]

If it's part of Gensokyo,Yukari should be > all of Gensokyian via the statement in Touhou 8

 

[Fllflourine]

Idk lol.i forgot who was stated to be > her

Is Former hell part of Gensokyo?Or at least inside of the barrier?

Former Hell is as much Gensokyo as the new Hell is.

In other words: no.

Also, how much more users do we need until I can implement the changes?

 

[Juggerton]

Idk lol.i forgot who was stated to be > her

Is Former hell part of Gensokyo?Or at least inside of the barrier?

Former Hell is as much Gensokyo as the new Hell is.
In other words: no.

Also, how much more users do we need until I can implement the changes?

If Former Hell is not Gensokyo,then how did then protagonists go there again?


PS:i rage quitted

 

[Fllflourine]

How did they went to the Netherworld?

How did they went to the Moon?

 

[Juggerton]

How did they went to the Netherworld?
How did they went to the Moon?

1) The border was weakened


2)Hax rocket


3)Former hell:???(pls explain to me)

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Pretty sure Former Hell is apart of Gensokyo, it's listed as such in almost all side materials, Netherworld the boundary between life and death was weakened, still hasnt been fixed. Reimu, Yukari and Eirin all had a hand in getting to the moon.

 

[Juggerton]

Pretty sure Former Hell is apart of Gensokyo, it's listed as such in almost all side materials, Netherworld the boundary between life and death was weakened, still hasnt been fixed.
Reimu, Yukari and Eirin all had a hand in getting to the moon.

Ahh

The moment you knew Yucurry wasn't going to steal some sake just for fun sake...It's for trolling the other hag lol

 

[Fllflourine]

Pretty sure Former Hell is apart of Gensokyo, it's listed as such in almost all side materials

[Citation Needed]

Even Higan is considered not a part of Gensokyo, even though you can get there by the Sanzu River (and you can get to the Sanzu River by walking to it). The Sanzu River itself is also not a part of Gensokyo. It's not that hard to travel to the Underworld, similarly to also how people can "accidentally" find themselves in Gensokyo from the Outside World. You can literally fall down a Blowhole and boom, you're in the Underworld, and outside of Gensokyo. You can walk to the Sanzu River, boom, you're outside of Gensokyo. It's a similar case here with the Underworld.

Former Hell is as much "Gensokyo" as New Hell is (it's even in the name), considering it used to be inhabited by the Yama a long time ago before it was abandoned from overpopulation.

If it's part of Gensokyo,Yukari should be > all of Gensokyian via the statement in Touhou 8

Yukari, a Youkai, should not be superior to a Lunarian God, if the Underworld IS a part of Gensokyo. This statement also implies that she > Eirin, which is false.

 

[Promestein]

We shouldn't derail this by bickering about what's in Gensokyo and what's not.

I'm fine with compromising on "possibly 3-A", and I've already said I support the rest.

 

[Fllflourine]

Yea, sorry about that. Back to on-topic.

Anyone else?