Project Moon Update: Binah, 8-A, and The Verse Page

[Tyranno223]

Finn was considered a naive fool because he had no augmentations... and he was a Grade 9 Fixer. Every Fixer is augmented in some way, saying they aren't is ignoring the beginning of Ruina.

Also the Full-Stop Office would have slaughtered the Library if they couldn't deflect bullets... which they do outright if you play the game.

Guns are explicitly useless against strong opponents and even decent Fixers can deal with them. The reason why they can still slaughter people is because most people in the City, even in the Backstreets, are non-combatants.

 

[First_Witch]

Nitpick aside, I do agree that the calc contradicts the narrative emphasis on gun effectiveness though. Yeah, high grade fixer dab on guns, but they are still considered effective weapons worth the money, because most foes arent high grade fixers.

The feat being performed by our Limbus fodder is what irks me, if it was Loland or anyone below him that had done it, it would had been a nonissue.

 

[Tyranno223]

The feat being performed by our Limbus fodder is what irks me, if it was Loland or anyone below him that had done it, it would had been a nonissue.

The Limbus Sinners are still decent fighters for the City. Ishmael was a Fixer for a bit for instance and from Canto IV onwards can take down Teth Abnos (albeit with death and revives). Plus they canonically take on all the Mirror Dungeon and Refraction Railway BS.

By Canto V and VI they're strong enough to take on groups of basic Finger goons who start appearing around Urban Plague for Ruina, aka the same time Full-Stop Office appears.

Edit: Actually the Index Proselytes first appear in Urban Nightmare so the slot after. Oops.

 

[First_Witch]

The Limbus Sinners are still decent fighters for the City. Ishmael was a Fixer for a bit for instance and from Canto IV onwards can take down Teth Abnos (albeit with death and revives).

By Canto V and VI they're strong enough to take on groups of basic Finger goons.

Yeah but shit happened in Canto 3. We also dont know Ishmaels grade.

And didnt we had a whole intervallo explaining how Abno grades might be useless for powerlevels going forward?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Nitpick aside, I do agree that the calc contradicts the narrative emphasis on gun effectiveness though. Yeah, high grade fixer dab on guns, but they are still considered effective weapons worth the money, because most foes arent high grade fixers.

The feat being performed by our Limbus fodder is what irks me, if it was Loland or anyone below him that had done it, it would had been a nonissue.

I thought it was moreso that guns aren't really seen so it catches people off guard but most people CAN react to guns somewhat. I'd have to check but I believe Roland says something liekthat.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah but shit happened in Canto 3. We also dont know Ishmaels grade.

And didnt we had a whole intervallo explaining how Abno grades might be useless for powerlevels going forward?

Ishmael can't have been too low since it's mentioned in Canto II that the Sinners are weakened from their original state yet are still able to take on N Corp Inquisitors, characters Vergilius considers to be actually decent fighters.

We did I'll grant you that (although this would be for Limbus only due to their circumstances with the failing Deterrence field in case anyone gets ideas).

 

[Tyranno223]

I thought it was moreso that guns aren't really seen so it catches people off guard but most people CAN react to guns somewhat. I'd have to check but I believe Roland says something liekthat.

Don't think it's that. The Full-Stop office dialogue just says that any competent fighter can make guns useless.

That being said it is stated in Tamaki's Page that they are too fast for specifically average people, aka non-combatants. They're just another weapon to Fixers, nothing too special and often not worth the cost.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Don't think it's that. The Full-Stop office dialogue just says that any competent fighter can make guns useless.

That being said it is stated in Tamaki's Page that they are too fast for specifically average people, aka non-combatants. They're just another weapon to Fixers, nothing too special and often not worth the cost.

That's what I was getting at mainly, I was just trying to say most fixers especially with augmentations could probably dodge or react to a bullet.

 

[Tyranno223]

That's what I was getting at mainly, I was just trying to say most fixers, especially with augmentations could probably dodge or react to a bullet.

Yeah, I don't get the big deal with scaling even average Fixers to guns. Heck, we can use IDs with guns from Canto I in Limbus and have the attacks deflected.

Not to mention even decent Grade 9 Fixers are usually augmented in some way, at least unless you're a beginner or Finn.

 

[First_Witch]

Ishmael can't have been too low since it's mentioned in Canto II that the Sinners are weakened from their original state yet are still able to take on N Corp Inquisitors, characters Vergilius considers to be actually decent fighters.

IDs are a thing.

To the gun thematic, lets also not forget that actual high tier characters uses guns; the Thumb. Carlo uses one. Hes not uber god level, but hes damn high as a Sotto Capo. Tax evasion aside, at the powerlevel Carlo and his Capos are fighting, guns shoudnt be viable at all, yet they not only wield them, but have established themselve as a fricking finger while using them.

Maybe the conversation should be about what is considered a "competent" enough combatant for gun dabbing

 

[CurrySenpai]

Eh, I feel like this isn't something to get our hair all in a knot over.

 

[Tyranno223]

IDs are a thing.

Yes and as early as Canto I they can have their bullets deflected. IDs are canonically used, even showing up in Cutscenes.

To the gun thematic, lets also not forget that actual high tier characters uses guns; the Thumb. Carlo uses one. Hes not uber god level, but hes damn high as a Sotto Capo. Tax evasion aside, at the powerlevel Carlo and his Capos are fighting, guns shoudnt be viable at all, yet they not only wield them, but have established themselve as a fricking finger while using them.

They do indeed, but even the Thumb uses their guns as melee weapons and it's not like we're saying guns can't hurt. On the point of bullets, their bullets are very much customised and different from average ones in the City like the Full-Stop Office uses (even having unique pages).

And again, Librarians can very easily deflect their bullets with the right rolls. Their speed isn't anything remarkable for that level of combat they're just another weapon.

Maybe the conversation should be about what is considered a "competent" enough combatant for gun dabbing

Vergilius considers the N Corp goons in Canto III to be "competent" fighters for the City if you want the judgement of a Colour and they show up before we even get Olga IDs.

Eh, I feel like this isn't something to get our hair all in a knot over.

Yeah, but it's fun to finally have something PM related to chat about.

 

[CurrySenpai]

We should chat about Phillip Clair buffs but yeah, I get it.

 

[Tyranno223]

We should chat about Phillip Clair buffs but yeah, I get it.

Blazing Strike rolling 40 without even being an E.G.O skill, gotta love Chadlipenterclair.

Though Sinclair really does get a lot of love from PM.

 

[First_Witch]

Yes and as early as Canto I they can have their bullets deflected. IDs are canonically used, even showing up in Cutscenes.


They do indeed, but even the Thumb uses their guns as melee weapons and it's not like we're saying guns can't hurt. On the point of bullets, their bullets are very much customised and different from average ones in the City like the Full-Stop Office uses (even having unique pages).

And again, Librarians can very easily deflect their bullets with the right rolls. Their speed isn't anything remarkable for that level of combat they're just another weapon.


Vergilius considers the N Corp goons in Canto III to be "competent" fighters for the City if you want the judgement of a Colour and they show up before we even get Olga IDs.


Yeah, but it's fun to finally have something PM related to chat about.

Are we really arguing now that Rats can deflect bullets? Like, I know PMoon is really big about making game mechanics as canon as possible, but this would break the setting if we take this at face value

True, they also hit people with them. But more importantly, they shoot people with them. I dont know why you keep bringing up librarians, because no one doubts that they are anomalies in the overall City powerlevel. But my point was that shooting is viable, even in high end combat, which it woudnt be if everyone could fight at machspeeds that would make bullets look slowmotion.

Like, its not just bullet deflecting. Its the calc making sinners of all people be like, 250ish times faster than a AK 47. In Canto 3. Carlo shoots at Yi Sang and homeboy could finish a whole book before the bullet reaches him lmfao

 

[Tyranno223]

Are we really arguing now that Rats can deflect bullets? Like, I know PMoon is really big about making game mechanics as canon as possible, but this would break the setting if we take this at face value

True, they also hit people with them. But more importantö

No I'm not arguing a bunch of guys who are weaker than an assistant librarian without Pages can deflect bullets, that much is pretty clear (not to mention losing clashes with them is pretty damn difficult with any gun IDs). There is a point of gameplay and story segregation, but the point is that we have canonical gun wielding IDs in Limbus that can have shots deflected by actual fighters like N Corp Inquisitors or heck even G Corp veterans.

Anyway, that was more of an aside to state that guns are very much deflectable in Limbus and Ruina. The thing I'm arguing is they can be deflected at the point they show up in LoR, the Library canonically beats the Full-Stop Office with pages that are of Urban Plague quality. Fixers in this range are at Grade 3 to 6 (Salvador and Oscar being the highest, Stephan being the lowest). This is my range for when "competent" warriors who can deflect bullets show up because this is when Librarians actively can deflect bullets.

Edit: This is turning into discussion thread material at this point.

 

[First_Witch]

Updated my post btw, accidentatily posted it too early

 

[Tyranno223]

True, they also hit people with them. But more importantly, they shoot people with them. I dont know why you keep bringing up librarians, because no one doubts that they are anomalies in the overall City powerlevel. But my point was that shooting is viable, even in high end combat, which it woudnt be if everyone could fight at machspeeds that would make bullets look slowmotion.

Like, its not just bullet deflecting. Its the calc making sinners of all people be like, 250ish times faster than a AK 47. In Canto 3. Carlo shoots at Yi Sang and homeboy could finish a whole book before the bullet reaches him lmfao

Quite frankly, the Librarians aren't that special at Urban Plague, they're pretty much at the same level as Full-Stop Office with only Salvador's page being special at that row at Grade 3 (Oscar too but I think he's the next row).

They'd be fighting and deflecting bullets with pages of Grade 6 to 4 quality (like Walter to Olga). Heck, Librarians aren't really special in general minus E.G.O. and it's not that which lets them deflect bullets.

Not the most invested into how we exactly calc the speed of the feat so I'm not going to comment there, but it's pretty fair to simply take the gameplay as if its on auto mode (which I kinda forgot about until this post). The way it's thus depicted is as if it's point blank, especially due to the way the motion lines line up (we have this depicted with Ahab and Ishamel in Canto V in fact Ishmael deflecting the Gasharpoon E.G.O at point blank in slow motion).

Plus it's true that gun IDs are already used by LCCB of Limbus Company so it's likely also true that the Nail is thrown faster than their bullets given Faust's commentary.

 

[First_Witch]

I think there is a slight disconnect at our arguments here.

Bullet deflection happens, I am not contesting that. Heck, maybe lower mid tiers are fast enough already to do so.

But there is a huge difference between "being able to deflect bullets in a open and direct confrontation", "being able to casually dodge and parry bullets" to "being so ******* fast that a bullet would appear to be as fast as a snail next to you". See what the problem is? The first 2 are perfectly in line with the Cities internal logic. The last one would completly delete guns. It would be literal suicide for Thumb Soldato to fire a shot than square up with a bayonet. At that point, what are guns even for?

Like yeah, we could argue about the feats in a vacuum, but how high would you estimate it? Me personally? Definitly not 250× times faster lol

 

[Mand21]

Thats incorrect iirc. First of all, guns arent forbidden, they are heavily taxed. And the reason for that is because gun combat is too indirect for the Head, it needs to be linked to the human experience

Sorry, where did you get "human experience" from? I see it nowhere in the canon material. Maybe it's just that being a Project Moon fan has made me illiterate, who knows.

And guns are also HEAVILY regulated, which is very much linked to how easily they can kill people.

I'm not going to argue "series intent" or what not, it's not like this is a particularly crazy verse, but you're just... kind of wrong lol. Besides, lower grade fixers don't just not have augmentations. It's that MOST of them don't have the money to afford them, or good ones. Everyone starts at Grade 9 though, this isn't a set every grade 9 fixer is weak thing.

Yeah, but Grade 9 means you're barely above a street rat. Grade 9s are very much not competent, very much trashy Fixers. If augmented, they'd be what Heathcliff & co describe as "just a sturdier punching bag": someone who has a strong body, but doesn't know how to use it properly.

Finn was considered a naive fool because he had no augmentations... and he was a Grade 9 Fixer. Every Fixer is augmented in some way, saying they aren't is ignoring the beginning of Ruina.

Also the Full-Stop Office would have slaughtered the Library if they couldn't deflect bullets... which they do outright if you play the game.

Guns are explicitly useless against strong opponents and even decent Fixers can deal with them. The reason why they can still slaughter people is because most people in the City, even in the Backstreets, are non-combatants.

I don't say they can't stop bullets, I say bullets are still effective, meaning NO ONE should be scaled to blitzing bullets (i.e essentially teleporting from the other side of the screen to the muzzle in 1 frame) who doesn't absolutely shitstomp the gun user in question.

Yes and as early as Canto I they can have their bullets deflected. IDs are canonically used, even showing up in Cutscenes.

Calm down there. Were there IDs capable of using bullets as early as Season 1 of the game? Because IDs are canonically used, but only the ones from relatively early within the season the Canto was released in can be considered canon for that Canto, as the ones going forward quite literally weren't available for extraction when the Canto's story happened.

If you aren't careful with that, you're gonna end up thinking that Canto I enemies scale to E.G.O Philip because Philipclair can technically be used in Canto I if I really want to. Meaning that even the weakest fodder in the game can cope with attacks from E.G.O Philip to a degree and sometimes even win clashes, which... no, they can't. They ******* can't, in-lore.

On the point of bullets, their bullets are very much customised and different from average ones in the City like the Full-Stop Office uses (even having unique pages).

And again, Librarians can very easily deflect their bullets with the right rolls. Their speed isn't anything remarkable for that level of combat they're just another weapon.

Can't we consider the very first characters to show us firearms in Ruina, who seem to be using old-looking weapons, has having bullets not significantly better than the best stuff IRL? They shouldn't have hypersonic rounds just yet.

 

[Mand21]

I think there is a slight disconnect at our arguments here.

Bullet deflection happens, I am not contesting that. Heck, maybe lower mid tiers are fast enough already to do so.

But there is a huge difference between "being able to deflect bullets in a open and direct confrontation", "being able to casually dodge and parry bullets" to "being so ******* fast that a bullet would appear to be as fast as a snail next to you". See what the problem is? The first 2 are perfectly in line with the Cities internal logic. The last one would completly delete guns. It would be literal suicide for Thumb Soldato to fire a shot than square up with a bayonet. At that point, what are guns even for?

Like yeah, we could argue about the feats in a vacuum, but how high would you estimate it? Me personally? Definitly not 250× times faster lol

Exactly my point tbh.

I think that we shouldn't accept a calc of a feat as a character being 250x faster than another character's attack UNLESS it's reasonable to accept character A as being indeed 250x faster than character B.

I would accept Binah, Gebura or N-word Pass Loland being 250x faster than the first Grade 5 fodder to show us some basic-ass guns, but I would not accept Argalia being 250x faster than a Thumb Sottocapo, nor would I accept Librarians who are fighting these enemies for the first time as being 250x faster than them.

If an attack can hurt you, you're not 250x faster than said attack. This isn't one of these superhero speedster movies where a speedster holds the idiot ball for an entire second so a normal human speed idiot can connect a strong hit, and people complain about the inconsistency in that when watching those.

Personally, I'd just scale the first Grade 5s we deal with as being relative to the speed of a bullet themselves. Give them Subsonic+ at most (at least until we get some kind of estimate on how fast these bullets are vs IRL ones. Are they as fast as .22 LRs like the old weapons they look like, or are they fast like .220 Swifts?) since they can still be threatened by gunshots from mid range (like 10 meters away or so, however wide is a library floor space you fight on during the receptions).

 

[CurrySenpai]

Why not Argalia, bro is literally a Color Fixer, that's a bit of a weird stance.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Also, Imma be real, I kinda lost track of what we were arguing about. Regardless, I think you're being stingy.

N-word Pass Loland

Wow, you're so funny

 

[Mand21]

Why not Argalia, bro is literally a Color Fixer, that's a bit of a weird stance.

Bc I'm comparing Argalia to a Sottocapo, which is comparable to a Grade 1 Fixer. I think Color Fixers can be stronger and faster than Grade 1s, but not 250x faster.

Wow, you're so funny

Thanks. Also, I said that to differentiate "Washed up Grade 9 Loland" from THAT late game Loland, without spoiling him. Hopefully you're not offended by a joke that's commonly made on the internet.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Thanks. Also, I said that to differentiate "Washed up Grade 9 Loland" from THAT late game Loland, without spoiling him. Hopefully you're not offended by a joke that's commonly made on the internet.

 

[First_Witch]

Sorry, where did you get "human experience" from? I see it nowhere in the canon material. Maybe it's just that being a Project Moon fan has made me illiterate, who knows.

And guns are also HEAVILY regulated, which is very much linked to how easily they can kill people.

Post Full-Stop Office scene. Roland specificly says that murder should be visceral and emotional, guns arent therefor they are regulated.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Yeah, The Head is pretty humanitarian all things considered.. That's like what we're taught by the Arbiters and Roland. The entire reason the city exists was so they could get away from whatever creatures existed in the outskirts because they'd rather kill them off and keep humans alive than comingle

 

[Mand21]

Post Full-Stop Office scene. Roland specificly says that murder should be visceral and emotional, guns arent therefor they are regulated.

Oh, darn. The Head is insane :/

Yeah, The Head is pretty humanitarian all things considered.. That's like what we're taught by the Arbiters and Roland. The entire reason the city exists was so they could get away from whatever creatures existed in the outskirts because they'd rather kill them off and keep humans alive than comingle

I wouldn't call that "humanitarian" lmfao, the Head is inhumane in so many ways it's absurd. But yeah, the Head seems to have... it's own weird concept of humanity.

 

[Tyranno223]

The Head considers Distortions to be human so their qualifications are definetly weird compared to ours.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I wouldn't call that "humanitarian" lmfao, the Head is inhumane in so many ways it's absurd. But yeah, the Head seems to have... it's own weird concept of humanity.

Was moreso talking about in ideals less in actual practice but they try to be humanitarian and that’s how they’re described as.

 

[First_Witch]

There is a lovely theory about the City being somehting akin to a pressure cooker in order to further humanity foward in preperation to... Something. By honing them in brutal combat, destroying them empathetically and pushing technology in a hyper capitalist manner you create super soldiers armed with the greatest technology humanity could muster up.