Project Moon Update: Binah, 8-A, and The Verse Page

[Uncannily_Callous]

I don't really think the developers are outright confirming what you're saying, but even then it's not that out there. EGO is, as I've been saying, a very consistent and strong power up, especially the combat oriented ones. Besides, Phillip was already decent enough, and his EGO being tied to his desire to not run and instead stand there and fight till the bitter end aligns with it's power.

The mere fact his E.G.O was incomplete and unstable shows his desire wasn't yet all that powerful and consolidated. The artbook still lists "repressed" and "uncertain" amidst his personality traits. If we were talking about Xiao, I could see the argument for propping up the potency of one's determination and how it reflects strongly on their fighting ability. Applying it to someone like Philip, who was clearly unable to fully realize himself, feels like a reach.

That aside, we all know E.G.O. is not a uniform power-up and there's no reason to say that the E.G.O. of a guy who can distort into a Urban Nightmare/Star of the City level Distortion can't output that level of power for one single big attack.

This is like saying a Charmander should be able to output as much power as a Charizard because it can evolve into the latter. He only obtained those classifications after undergoing a more advanced state of distortion in the Crying Children episode, and thus a greater increase in power. They shouldn't be relevant to his unstable and only partially-manifested E.G.O.

Stat wise he is in the Grade 1 Fixer range in durability with Waxen Pinion even without Blazing Strike for LoR anyway.

In-game stats are subject to change according to the amount of enemies in a fight as well as how many tools the player has access to during said fight. This leads to several oddities when trying to compare them:

• A wounded Miris fighting alongside Xiao has higher stats than a healthy Miris fighting alongside Xiao + multiple Fixers
• Olivier has considerably lower stats compared to E.G.O-less Xiao, despite them both being the same tier of Fixer
• Distorted Ensemble Philip has a much smaller health pool compared to Incomplete E.G.O Philip and Ensemble Philip
• Kalo has the same stats as Boris

Just to name a few. It's not a reliable metric by any means.

 

[CurrySenpai]

The mere fact his E.G.O was incomplete and unstable shows his desire wasn't yet all that powerful and consolidated. The artbook still lists "repressed" and "uncertain" amidst his personality traits. If we were talking about Xiao, I could see the argument for propping up the potency of one's determination and how it reflects strongly on their fighting ability. Applying it to someone like Philip, who was clearly unable to fully realize himself, feels like a reach.

Xiao is also the director of an entire branch of the Liu association, I don’t see how this really comparable, she was already strong after all.

Also “repressed” and “uncertain” don’t mean much, he still had the desire to fight and was using his EGO, partially manifested or not. No reason to assume he didn’t get stronger and considerably so at that lol.

 

[First_Witch]

Snip

I should really do another Ruina playthrough...

 

[Uncannily_Callous]

Xiao is also the director of an entire branch of the Liu association, I don’t see how this really comparable, she was already strong after all.

Also “repressed” and “uncertain” don’t mean much, he still had the desire to fight and was using his EGO, partially manifested or not. No reason to assume he didn’t get stronger and considerably so at that lol.

"Repressed" and "uncertain" certainly mean a lot, considering we're speaking of E.G.O-- a power that draws directly from the mind. How are you going to draw it out to its fullest when you lack resolution?

The reason I compared Philip to Xiao is unrelated to their baseline fighting ability; Xiao was able to fully-manifest E.G.O while Philip wasn't. There is a clear difference in mental fortitude between the two. Xiao should be the hallmark of how E.G.O can make one's desires and determination into incredible power when conquered. Someone like Philip, who wasn't yet sure of what he wanted and remained unable to reach that same state of mind, doesn't have as much ground to stand in that regard.

Phillip was already decent enough, and his EGO being tied to his desire to not run and instead stand there and fight till the bitter end aligns with it's power.

Which is why I don't think this reasoning applies to him as much as it'd apply to someone like Xiao. At least, not enough that it'd justify him outputting as much power as a Color's strongest attack.

 

[Tyranno223]

The mere fact his E.G.O was incomplete and unstable shows his desire wasn't yet all that powerful and consolidated. The artbook still lists "repressed" and "uncertain" amidst his personality traits. If we were talking about Xiao, I could see the argument for propping up the potency of one's determination and how it reflects strongly on their fighting ability. Applying it to someone like Philip, who was clearly unable to fully realize himself, feels like a reach.

This is like saying a Charmander should be able to output as much power as a Charizard because it can evolve into the latter. He only obtained those classifications after undergoing a more advanced state of distortion in the Crying Children episode, and thus a greater increase in power. They shouldn't be relevant to his unstable and only partially-manifested E.G.O.


In-game stats are subject to change according to the amount of enemies in a fight as well as how many tools the player has access to during said fight. This leads to several oddities when trying to compare them:

• A wounded Miris fighting alongside Xiao has higher stats than a healthy Miris fighting alongside Xiao + multiple Fixers
• Olivier has considerably lower stats compared to E.G.O-less Xiao, despite them both being the same tier of Fixer
• Distorted Ensemble Philip has a much smaller health pool compared to Incomplete E.G.O Philip and Ensemble Philip
• Kalo has the same stats as Boris

Just to name a few. It's not a reliable metric by any means.

The quality and strength of E.G.O. is not a universal thing, we know that Effloresced Dongbaek's E.G.O. is far below Kali or even Philip's Volatile E.G.O. since she canonically shows up both before Dawnclair is available and before Olga (who is treated as a notably powerful Fixer who can solo a big crab). Doesn't matter if it's unstable, it doesn't change the fact that Sinclair can get there + has the stats and statements to be there for Blazing Strike.

I'll grant you the second point but I'll add that it's proof of his ability to get to that point in contrast to other distortions (like Kim) or E.G.O. users (like Dongrang or Dongbaek) who are kinda hardcapped.

The Third point I'll concede mostly but I hold that it remains a valid enough tracker of what range characters fall under. It's not a perfect measuring stick but Fixer Grade 1 and Grade 3 are clearly differentiated with stats.

Plus Grade 1 Fixers are expecially varied in strength. Dong-Hwan is far below the likes of Xiao for instance so that's not a fair case. Distorted Philip isn't much of a fair case either since the characters are being balanced for both a boss gauntlet and for multiple Ensemble members in one fight.

 

[Tyranno223]

To emphasise a particular point, it really doesn't matter how repressed X E.G.O. user is beyond their own internal scaling (and no one disputes Volatile Waxen Pinion < Crying Children), Philip has no genuine relation to other E.G.O. users like Xiao or Dongbaek, a comparison between them only comes by external scaling like Xiao coming before the Ensemble Reception or Dongbaek coming before Dawnclair.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, PJMoon is not a particularily fun verse to scale.

 

[Tyranno223]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, PJMoon is not a particularily fun verse to scale.

You're preaching to the choir here. I seem to only be interested in Verses that work that way.

 

[Uncannily_Callous]

The quality and strength of E.G.O. is not a universal thing, we know that Effloresced Dongbaek's E.G.O. is far below Kali or even Philip's Volatile E.G.O. since she canonically shows up both before Dawnclair is available and before Olga (who is treated as a notably powerful Fixer who can solo a big crab). Doesn't matter if it's unstable, it doesn't change the fact that Sinclair can get there + has the stats and statements to be there for Blazing Strike.

The "apex" which Carmen mentions during Dawn Office Sinclair's story refers to his Distorted Ensemble form, which happens after his distortion into the Crying Children, which happens after Waxen Pinion.

There are like two different tiers of evolution separating E.G.O Philip from "apex Philip." Why are we making these jumps for an attack he uses in the lowest of those tiers? Yes, he has the potential to reach the apex. No, he hadn't yet reached the apex or anything close to it during the Dawn Office episode, else he wouldn't have lost.

To emphasise a particular point, it really doesn't matter how repressed X E.G.O. user is beyond their own internal scaling (and no one disputes Volatile Waxen Pinion < Crying Children), Philip has no genuine relation to other E.G.O. users like Xiao or Dongbaek, a comparison between them only comes by external scaling like Xiao coming before the Ensemble Reception or Dongbaek coming before Dawnclair.

But Philip isn't unique when it comes to showing an incomplete manifestation E.G.O to be a thing, and we can in fact relate his case to that of Xiao.

Just look at phase 1 of the Xiao boss fight. She is wielding an incomplete version of her E.G.O, and she lacks the unique abilities and attacks featured in phase 2 where she does have fully-manifested E.G.O. Does this not support my point there is notable difference between "incomplete E.G.O" (Philip, Phase 1 Xiao) and "fully-manifested E.G.O" (Phase 2 Xiao)? Again, having the potential is one thing, but reaching and wielding the tools that come with said potential is another.

Distorted Philip isn't much of a fair case either since the characters are being balanced for both a boss gauntlet and for multiple Ensemble members in one fight.

There's no reason E.G.O Philip should be taken as a special exception to this fact. "Game balancing" is consistently applied throughout Ruina when it comes to enemy stats.

The reason E.G.O Philip has "Grade 1 stats" is because he's a single enemy balanced around being fought by a player with four Librarians. If he didn't have Grade 1 stats, he wouldn't be a boss fight. He'd be a joke with the same level of difficulty as the tutorial fight.

 

[Tyranno223]

The "apex" which Carmen mentions during Dawn Office Sinclair's story refers to his Distorted Ensemble form, which happens after his distortion into the Crying Children, which happens after Waxen Pinion.

There are like two different tiers of evolution separating E.G.O Philip from "apex Philip." Why are we making these jumps for an attack he uses in the lowest of those tiers? Yes, he has the potential to reach the apex. No, he hadn't yet reached the apex during the Dawn Office episode, else he wouldn't have lost.

But Philip isn't unique when it comes to showing an incomplete manifestation E.G.O to be a thing, and we can in fact relate his case to that of Xiao.

Just look at phase 1 of the Xiao boss fight. She is wielding an incomplete version of her E.G.O, and she lacks the unique abilities and attacks featured in phase 2 where she does have fully-manifested E.G.O. Does this not support my claim there is notable difference between "incomplete E.G.O" (Philip, Phase 1 Xiao) and "fully-manifested E.G.O" (Phase 2 Xiao)? Again, having the potential is one thing, but reaching and wielding the tools that come with said potential is another.

There's no reason E.G.O Philip should be taken as a special exception to this fact. "Game balancing" is consistently applied throughout Ruina when it comes to enemy stats.

The reason E.G.O Philip has "Grade 1 stats" is because he's a single enemy balanced around being fought by a player with four Librarians. If he didn't have Grade 1 stats, he wouldn't be a boss fight. He'd be a joke with the same level of difficulty as the tutorial fight.

The "Apex" is a state which isn't exactly rated here I believe (I wasn't around for the 4-A threads conclusion) and isn't relevant here anyway since it's very much the pinnacle of PM's powerscaling (minus those in the Light).

Waxen Pinion is obviously overall weaker than Crying Children, but the argument is that a specific attack is on a comparable field. I mention the Crying Children in particular as proof that, unlike Dongrang who we see both E.G.O. and Distortion of, we know Philip can reach such heights so there's no reason to be too scepticle.

Yes, and it doesn't matter. Xiao's E.G.O. is Xiao's E.G.O. it doesn't matter how she compares to her completed self as that is in reference to herself! E.G.O. all differ and unlike Xiao anyway, Philip does have a big mega Nuke in his incomplete state (which is present in both Ruina and Limbus and Ruina's artbook).

I'll concede with his overall stats for now (since it's not something I'm that invested in for now (plus Grade 3 is 9-A, likely 8-B anyway), but Blazing Strike is very much a point I support.

 

[CurrySenpai]

The "Apex" is a state which isn't exactly rated here I believe (I wasn't around for the 4-A threads conclusion) and isn't relevant here anyway since it's very much the pinnacle of PM's powerscaling (minus those in the Light).

4-A passed but there's no profiles so we're just waiting for that to finish lol.

 

[Tyranno223]

4-A passed but there's no profiles so we're just waiting for that to finish lol.

Well then "The Apex" definitely isn't relevant to this point (nice that we have a good key name for it).

Edit: Screw it. Making a Salvador page. I'm getting motivated.

 

[Uncannily_Callous]

The "Apex" is a state which isn't exactly rated here I believe (I wasn't around for the 4-A threads conclusion) and isn't relevant here anyway since it's very much the pinnacle of PM's powerscaling (minus those in the Light).

Well then "The Apex" definitely isn't relevant to this point (nice that we have a good key name for it).

Then I may have misunderstood what you meant by "Sinclair has the statements to be there for Blazing Strike." Admittedly, no such examples come to mind right now.

Yes, and it doesn't matter. Xiao's E.G.O. is Xiao's E.G.O. it doesn't matter how she compares to her completed self as that is in reference to herself! E.G.O. all differ and unlike Xiao anyway, Philip does have a big mega Nuke in his incomplete state (which is present in both Ruina and Limbus and Ruina's artbook).

Xiao's E.G.O has an incomplete state. Philip's E.G.O has an incomplete state. I could also name Ezra from Distortion Detective, who partially awakened her E.G.O with YuRia's help. It's not quite the same as the other two cases, but it nonetheless stands as incomplete E.G.O.

My point is that E.G.O can exist in an incomplete state in which it lacks access to its full capabilities, and thus Waxen Pinion isn't necessarily able to tap into whatever the full potential of Philip is. The fact we have more than one instance of this implies it's not something unique to Xiao or Philip, but something that can apply to E.G.O in general.

 

[Tyranno223]

Xiao's E.G.O has an incomplete state. Philip's E.G.O has an incomplete state. I could also name Ezra from Distortion Detective, who partially awakened her E.G.O with YuRia's help; it's not quite the same as the other two cases, but it nonetheless stands as incomplete E.G.O.

My point is that E.G.O can exist in an incomplete state in which it lacks access to its full capabilities, and thus Waxen Pinion isn't necessarily able to tap into whatever the full potential of Philip is. The fact we have more than one instance of this shows it's not something unique to Xiao or Philip.

Yes but this doesn't matter as I'm discussing something Philip HAS. Blazing Strike is something Philip HAS and is directly compared to Verticle Slash (caps purely for emphasis).

I am saying the other examples don't matter as they only demonstrate something they themselves lack in their current state, this is not the case with Philip where I'm discussing something he HAS.

 

[Uncannily_Callous]

Yes but this doesn't matter as I'm discussing something Philip HAS. Blazing Strike is something Philip HAS and is directly compared to Verticle Slash (caps purely for emphasis).

I am saying the other examples don't matter as they only demonstrate something they themselves lack in their current state, this is not the case with Philip where I'm discussing something he HAS.

I've been arguing against the possible in-lore explanations for Blazing Strike to be 8-A, because if the in-lore reasoning is shaky, then all we can turn to is in-game numbers.

And I've already put forward my point on how gameplay numbers are an iffy metric to use which leads to inconsistent scalings.

 

[Tyranno223]

I've been arguing against the possible in-lore explanations for Blazing Strike to be 8-A, because if the in-lore reasoning is shaky, then all we can turn to is in-game numbers.

And I've already put forward my point on how gameplay numbers are an iffy metric to use which leads to inconsistent scalings.

The main point really is that the devs acknowledge it as an attack that is outright stronger than Verticle Split (even if it wasn't their original) intent. There isn't a specific lore reason for why it can't either, again it doesn't matter what other Incomplete E.G.O.s lack for a specific E.G.O case when a character has it already. That point just doesn't work.

 

[Uncannily_Callous]

The main point really is that the devs acknowledge it as an attack that is outright stronger than Verticle Split (even if it wasn't their original) intent. There isn't a specific lore reason for why it can't either, again it doesn't matter what other Incomplete E.G.O.s lack for a specific E.G.O case when a character has it already. That point just doesn't work.

They acknowledge it as a stronger "[combat] page." It's "stronger" because its numerical values are higher than those of Great Split Vertical. Numerical values for combat pages, and combat pages themselves, are a gameplay mechanic subject to balancing decisions like any other.

I don't see how this specific one being singled out by the artbook suddenly promotes it to a verifiable lore statement.

 

[Tyranno223]

They acknowledge it as a stronger "[combat] page." It's "stronger" because its numerical values are higher than those of Great Split Vertical. Numerical values for combat pages, and combat pages themselves, are a gameplay mechanic subject to balancing decisions like any other.

I don't see how this specific one being singled out by the artbook suddenly promotes it to a verifiable lore statement.

We use artbook and dev statements for such things on other Verses and it is an outright statement of the page being stronger. Regardless, this is getting kinda long and it's not like this discussion is going to conclude and actual rating so it's probably best to to delay this until a time when it's actually relevant.

 

[Mand21]

The devs are saying they didn't intend to make it that strong but that in the end, Blazing Strike did end up being a stronger page than even Greater Split Verticle. That doesn't provide grounds for dismissing the statement since that's what ended up in the final product. Heck, intent and end results often end up differing in a lot of fiction and in this case the devs outright acknowledge their initial intent did not make it to the final product.

That aside, we all know E.G.O. is not a uniform power-up and there's no reason to say that the E.G.O. of a guy who can distort into a Urban Nightmare/Star of the City level Distortion can't output that level of power for one single big attack.

Stat wise he is in the Grade 1 Fixer range in durability with Waxen Pinion even without Blazing Strike for LoR anyway.

I really do not think Philip's Blazing Strike warrants being scaled to Arbiter or Color levels when it's not even capable of clashing with Ricardo's "MY HAIR COUPOOOOONS!" in a fight where we know he wasn't going all out, so be careful where you scale it to on the basis of "it's much stronger than his normal attacks".

He's probably still below Grade 1 at this point. Unstable E.G.O Philip really ain't that tough

We use artbook and dev statements for such things on other Verses and it is an outright statement of the page being stronger. Regardless, this is getting kinda long and it's not like this discussion is going to conclude and actual rating so it's probably best to to delay this until a time when it's actually relevant.

They say it's stronger in the sense that they accidentally made it stronger bc they lacked points of reference. You truly prove yourself a Project Moon fan when you think they were stating that they intentionally made it stronger than Greater Split: Vertical

 

[Tyranno223]

I really do not think Philip's Blazing Strike warrants being scaled to Arbiter or Color levels when it's not even capable of clashing with Ricardo, so be careful where you scale it to on the basis of "it's much stronger than his normal attacks".

How the Blazes do you lose clashes with Ricardo using Blazing Strike on Heads? It's impossible without paralysis no? Regardless, that's a scripted loss from a point in the story before Limbus can extract the Dawnclair ID.

He's probably still below Grade 1 at this point. Unstable E.G.O Philip really ain't that tough

Overall he's probably somewhere in the Grade 3 or higher range. He ain't weaker than Salvador or Oscar at least.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I'm just realizing, this is extremely off topic lol. Aren't t hese revisions done anyway, shouldn't this be closed.

 

[Mand21]

How the Blazes do you lose clashes with Ricardo using Blazing Strike on Heads? It's impossible without paralysis no? Regardless, that's a scripted loss from a point in the story before Limbus can extract the Dawnclair ID.


Overall he's probably somewhere in the Grade 3 or higher range. He ain't weaker than Salvador or Oscar at least.

No, it isn't impossible. The power of that attack is: 45 base, +5 coin power. Then "Coin Power+2 for every 4 (sum of Burn Potency on all enemies) (max 8)".

Meaning it goes up to 45+13, or 58 total power. (Unless I'm misreading and this applies 8 times, in which case it would get to 45+(5+16)=66).

Ricardo's "MY HAIR COUPOOOONS" hits for 60+4. So you need near-maxxed out Philipclair S4 to clash equal against it, and maxxed out Philipclair S4 to beat it.

And that's Philipclair's strongest attack versus a Ricardo who is clearly ******* around to torture the Sinners with multiple deaths and mad about some hair coupons that Heathcliff stole.

So Philipclair, our strongest character in the game, can just BARELY handle what is probably a non max power attack from Ricardo. You'd need to go with Philipclair + Ishmael with Philipclair on the first seat to get as many speed dice on him as possible and it'd still be hard to consistently counter My Hair Coupons

But yes, you're right to say that Philipclair is Grade 3, if not 2. Definitely below Grade 1 tho, which is already INSANELY impressive that the Sinners are getting that level of ID, even if it's only one so far.

I'm just realizing, this is extremely off topic lol. Aren't t hese revisions done anyway, shouldn't this be closed.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of stuff still ambiguous

 

[CurrySenpai]

Ehhhh, I thought things were finished. Not like we'll get much support anyways only like... Crimson cares about this verse.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm just realizing, this is extremely off topic lol. Aren't t hese revisions done anyway, shouldn't this be closed.

Yeah, I mentioned earlier we should be doing this stuff in the Discussion thread.

No, it isn't impossible. The power of that attack is: 45 base, +5 coin power. Then "Coin Power+2 for every 4 (sum of Burn Potency on all enemies) (max 8)".

Meaning it goes up to 45+13, or 58 total power. (Unless I'm misreading and this applies 8 times, in which case it would get to 45+(5+16)=66).

Ricardo's "MY HAIR COUPOOOONS" hits for 60+4. So you need near-maxxed out Philipclair S4 to clash equal against it, and maxxed out Philipclair S4 to beat it.

Huh... neat

And that's Philipclair's strongest attack versus a Ricardo who is clearly ******* around to torture the Sinners with multiple deaths and mad about some hair coupons that Heathcliff stole.

So Philipclair, our strongest character in the game, can just BARELY handle what is probably a non max power attack from Ricardo. You'd need to go with Philipclair + Ishmael with Philipclair on the first seat to get as many speed dice on him as possible and it'd still be hard to consistently counter My Hair Coupons

Again, Dawnclair is a Walpugisnacht 3 ID. This is explicitly post Canto VI. He isn't relevant to Canto IV. You're basically doing NG+ by bringing him into that fight.

 

[First_Witch]

Again, Dawnclair is a Walpugisnacht 3 ID. This is explicitly post Canto VI. He isn't relevant to Canto IV. You're basically doing NG+ by bringing him into that fight.

Before we move this to the discussion thread.

I mean... Thats kinda the issue no? That Gameplay is a weak powerscaling tool (On top of lulgamemechanics mind you), and that taking it at facevalue will always lead to some nonsensical situations.

Like, most other game verses have way more scrutinity when it comes to that stuff and for a good reason.

 

[Mand21]

Again, Dawnclair is a Walpugisnacht 3 ID. This is explicitly post Canto VI. He isn't relevant to Canto IV. You're basically doing NG+ by bringing him into that fight.

Agreed, though that's only more reason why he shouldn't scale to Ricardo tbh. If we were to fight Ricardo again, same stats, he'd still lose (though would put up more of a fight).

Before we move this to the discussion thread.

I mean... Thats kinda the issue no? That Gameplay is a weak powerscaling tool (On top of lulgamemechanics mind you), and that taking it at facevalue will always lead to some nonsensical situations.

Like, most other game verses have way more scrutinity when it comes to that stuff and for a good reason.

Agreed. People have gone too soft on this kinda scrutiny on Limbus and Ruina because those are games that REDUCE ludonarrative dissonance, so they pretend there is none. There is. There absolutely is.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Agreed. People have gone too soft on this kinda scrutiny on Limbus and Ruina because those are games that REDUCE ludonarrative dissonance, so they pretend there is none. There is. There absolutely is.

Big words, make it smaller.

To the discussion thread we go

 

[Mand21]

Can you link said discussion thread, if it's gonna be a different one?

 

[Tyranno223]

Can you link said discussion thread, if it's gonna be a different one?

Project Moon Discussion 2

I’d like to add in that your grade as a fixer is not = to your actual physical capabilities at all. Some fixers specialize in different things to get certain jobs down, and you can go up the ranks by just excelling within a certain skill group, not just fighting.

vsbattles.com

 

[Mand21]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, PJMoon is not a particularily fun verse to scale.

This is very much true, but I wonder why that is. Do they try particularly hard to AVOID scalable feats?