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Lucifer (DC Comics) vs. Perpetua

If we go by the 2016 comic (which I know isn't cannon but if we want further reasoning), Holly Black did state in a interview with YouTuber Imaginary Axis that even when Lucifer went beyond creation into The Void he still hadn't escaped The Presence's plan suggesting that The Presence and by extension Destiny can bind entities like Lucifer even when outside everything
 
The Unknown Warrior1 said:
If we go by the 2016 comic (which I know isn't cannon but if we want further reasoning), Holly Black did state in a interview with YouTuber Imaginary Axis that even when Lucifer went beyond creation into The Void he still hadn't escaped The Presence's plan suggesting that The Presence and by extension Destiny can bind entities like Lucifer even when outside everything
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Exactly. But even if we ignore that, Lucifer is still bound by destiny. So it's best for someone to remove the "Exists outside of Destiny himself and even burned Destiny's book" line as it's just not true.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Also the Overvoid is beyond the Sixth Dimension. So Lucifer went beyond it retroactively.
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I don't think this is actually a feat, considering all Lucifer needed to navigate in the Void were his wings, and he could do so even after giving away his Morningstar Power to Mazikeen.
 
Glad that you both agree. Now another thing that I've noticed. It's about his speed, while I don't really want to deny that he's as fast as light or even faster, I don't really get the feat that is on his page regarding him being faster than light. Because having a reaction time that is near instanteanous isn't really something that qualifies you for being above light speed, as not even light is instant.
 
Lucifer is Immeasurable, his wings explicitly allow him to treat distance and time as illusions, and are what he utilizes to navigate inside the Void in the first place.

He also explicitly calls his Creation a multiverse, pretty sure the scan for that is in his profile.
 
Ultima Reality said:
Lucifer is Immeasurable, his wings explicitly allow him to treat distance and time as illusions, and are what he utilizes to navigate in the Void in the first place.
He also explicitly calls his Creation a multiverse, pretty sure the scan for that is in his profile.
Click to expand...
If we go by what he says then I also have scans where he calls it a universe.
 
DarkHunter89 said:
Ultima Reality said:
Lucifer is Immeasurable, his wings explicitly allow him to treat distance and time as illusions, and are what he utilizes to navigate in the Void in the first place.
He also explicitly calls his Creation a multiverse, pretty sure the scan for that is in his profile.
Click to expand...
If we go by what he says then I also have scans where he calls it a universe.
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In its oldest context, "Universe" just means "all that is" (All of existence as a single unified cosmos), it doesn't necessarily have to refer to a single "verse", rather it can be used to refer to all "verses" in one.
 
Universe in vertigo refers to all of existence . Even Yahwehs creation ( DC) is referred as universe . Vertigo doesnt prefer to use the term multiverse or omniverse when referring to creation . Even Heaven has shown to be 1A realm ( according to mighty regulator scans ) .

@catalyst . The Source is an aspect of the Presence . One of his judges imprisoned her .
 
@AndrewBennet Isn't that still rather up in the air? It could just as easily be the other way around - the Presence is an aspect of the Source. Because, when you compare Perpetua and the Presence directly, there's an eerie similarity.

Perpetua creates her three sons, then the Multiverse, and sets her three sons to watch over each of the three realms of matter; the Presence creates his three sons, and instructs them to shape Creation.

The Presence's name is written on every particle in existence, so his absence from reality caused Creation to start collapsing; Perpetua's awakening in the current arc is threatening to turn the Multiverse back towards Doom,

The Presence has stated his appearance was shaped by the beliefs of sentient beings across the Universe, and the same comic series where he says this have Lucifer and other characters talking about other Makers aside from the Presence, who made their own Multiverse.

Just as Perpetua is one of many "Super-Celestials" whose function it is to create Multiverses within the greater Omniverse, within the Overvoid.

At this point, it is likely Justice League is setting up the Source as the omnipotent power.
 
Catalyst75 said:
@AndrewBennet Isn't that still rather up in the air? It could just as easily be the other way around - the Presence is an aspect of the Source. Because, when you compare Perpetua and the Presence directly, there's an eerie similarity.
Perpetua creates her three sons, then the Multiverse, and sets her three sons to watch over each of the three realms of matter; the Presence creates his three sons, and instructs them to shape Creation.

The Presence's name is written on every particle in existence, so his absence from reality caused Creation to start collapsing; Perpetua's awakening in the current arc is threatening to turn the Multiverse back towards Doom,

The Presence has stated his appearance was shaped by the beliefs of sentient beings across the Universe, and the same comic series where he says this have Lucifer and other characters talking about other Makers aside from the Presence, who made their own Multiverse.

Just as Perpetua is one of many "Super-Celestials" whose function it is to create Multiverses within the greater Omniverse, within the Overvoid.

At this point, it is likely Justice League is setting up the Source as the omnipotent power.
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You may be right, although I have always seen the Writer as the supreme being of DCU.
 
Lord of Apokolips said:
Perpetua wins She created GEB, so superior to Lucifer.

Note: GEB is part of a race called the "otherkinds", present in a sphere of the dark multiverse, it is no longer the darkness that precedes the creation .
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Wait where was stated that Great Evil Beast is part of the Otherkind, aren't the Otherkind just the Dark Multiverse equilant to Hecate with the Upside-Down-Man as representation?
 
We haven't seen Perpetua fight yet but given that she's Anti Monitor's mother and is stronger then all 3 of her sons combined? Yeah... Even at Lucifer's peak I don't know if he can muster enough plot armor to fight this lady.
 
Ultima Reality said:
I've been under the impression that The Presence/The Archangels' creation is the wider Omniverse admnistered by the Judges of the Source when reading that storyline. That's just me though.
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Where does it say that? I was never under the impresion that Archangels were above The Source. I at least thought the Presense and Source were equal.
 
I am mostly going off of the notion that the Presence and the Source are the same being, or at least two aspects of the same overarching force.
 
I see. Apologies for the late response. I just got here.

This match is kind of hard because despite them technically being in the same Multiverse (DC), Vertigo and DC tend to operate on their own cosmology. Very rarely do we see them interact with each other. Dark Knights Metal was quite the outlier.

On a literal sense I'm sure Lucifer in his peak can destroy realities, we just haven't seen often ... if any, I can't recall that literally taking place but I can believe he does given he's one of the Original Angels working for the Presece. We know just from Perpetua's past that she can manipulate realities and is above the imagination powers of the Imps and other powerful reality warpers. So just based on that, she's like a super big and powerful reality warping psycho.

I'd have to go back and read some Lucifer and Sandman to see if Lucifer has a feat that can compete with her.
 
Dreaming Serpent said:
I see. Apologies for the late response. I just got here.
This match is kind of hard because despite them technically being in the same Multiverse (DC), Vertigo and DC tend to operate on their own cosmology. Very rarely do we see them interact with each other. Dark Knights Metal was quite the outlier.

On a literal sense I'm sure Lucifer in his peak can destroy realities, we just haven't seen often ... if any, I can't recall that literally taking place but I can believe he does given he's one of the Original Angels working for the Presece. We know just from Perpetua's past that she can manipulate realities and is above the imagination powers of the Imps and other powerful reality warpers. So just based on that, she's like a super big and powerful reality warping psycho.

I'd have to go back and read some Lucifer and Sandman to see if Lucifer has a feat that can compete with her.
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A lot of the time in the Mike Carey run you don't see Lucifer at his full power. That being said, even at his full power he hasn't done many things that are attributed to him on his vs battle page.
 
In reality Lucifer> Perpetua.

A subordinate of the Judges of the Source easily imprisoned Perpetua by creating the Source Wall.

The Source> Judges of the Source> Subordinate Judges> Perpetua

And The Presence = The Source (they are the same entities).

And Lucifer and Michael were like the most powerful creations of The Presence.

The Presence/The Source > Lucifer > Juges of the Source > Subordinate Judges> Perpetua
 
Except the Presence in the Lucifer story is attributed as the Maker of the DC Multiverse, with there being other Creations and other Makers out there in the Overvoid.

The Source, in the new Justice League arc, creates the beings who create Multiverses within the Overvoid/the greater Omniverse.

You see the issue?
 
Catalyst75 said:
Except the Presence in the Lucifer story is attributed as the Maker of the DC Multiverse, with there being other Creations and other Makers out there in the Overvoid.
The Source, in the new Justice League arc, creates the beings who create Multiverses within the Overvoid/the greater Omniverse.

You see the issue?
Click to expand...
  • Making DC creation, whick includes several multiverses
 
Lord of Apokolips said:
In reality Lucifer> Perpetua.

A subordinate of the Judges of the Source easily imprisoned Perpetua by creating the Source Wall.

The Source> Judges of the Source> Subordinate Judges> Perpetua

And The Presence = The Source (they are the same entities).

And Lucifer and Michael were like the most powerful creations of The Presence.

The Presence/The Source > Lucifer > Juges of the Source > Subordinate Judges> Perpetua
Click to expand...
Lucifer ignored the Source
 
t was not in Lucifer's interest to blame him simply. Ignoring someone does not mean that you are more powerful than him. Imagine that you see a bear, and that you ignore it, that would mean that you are more powerful than the bear?

Of course not .


It has been confirmed by Grant Morrison and even says explicitly in comics that The Source = God (it's the same entity)
 
Lord of Apokolips said:
t was not in Lucifer's interest to blame him simply.
Ignoring someone does not mean that you are more powerful than him. Imagine that you see a bear, and that you ignore it, that would mean that you are more powerful than the bear?

Of course not .


It has been confirmed by Grant Morrison and even says explicitly in comics that The Source = God (it's the same entity)
Click to expand...
Lucifer killed Presence in second tom
 
It does not prove Lucifer's superiority over God , since all that happens in DC is because it is God who wants it

Especially since it has already been said that The Presence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his sons

And since when did Lucifer kill God?
 
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