LoZ Top Tier Revisions

[Dark649]

Ant, is it true that if a character predates time has Immeasurable Speed?.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Contextually, Worlds mean Universes as the Goddesses are said to have created Heaven & Earth from chaos, and Zelda has numerous instances of alternate realms, timelines and universes, while things like faraway planets in the same universe are never mentioned.

Xcano's interpretation is frankly unsupported by the text.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dark649 Please read the new descriptions in our Speed page.

I still agree with Matthew btw.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ant, is it true that if a character predates time has Immeasurable Speed?.

The Goddesses not only predate time but also created it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Just a question : Would this scale to anyone other than the Goddesses ? And as of now, i am on Matt's & Ant's side for this argument.

 

[Dark649]

@Dark649 Please read the new descriptions in our Speed page.

I did not noticed them, i agree with the others.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: We also have a few footnotes about immeasurable speed, that are useful to read.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Goddesses don't have any rivals or equals in Verse, so no.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I see... But I thought Demise was their equal ?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Demise was equal to the Goddess Hylia, not the Golden Goddesses

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Demise is ''Hylia's'' equal.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

....Oh.

 

[The_great_ZZ]

Demise is Hylia's equal.

At full strength.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump

 

[FateAlbane]

I'm also agreeing with what Matthew and Cal have said so far.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bumpity Bump

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump. Azzy gave me hope about upgrades.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

 

[LordXcano]

Contextually, Worlds mean Universes as the Goddesses are said to have created Heaven & Earth from chaos, and Zelda has numerous instances of alternate realms, timelines and universes, while things like faraway planets in the same universe are never mentioned.
Xcano's interpretation is frankly unsupported by the text.

If it said they made Heaven I wouldn't be arguing this. It doesn't. I'll post the story again.

Before time began, before spirits and life existed... Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule... Din, the goddess of power... Nayru, the goddess of wisdom... Farore, the goddess of courage...

Din... With her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth. Nayru... Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world. Farore... With her rich soul, produced all life forms which would uphold the law.

The three great goddess, their labors completed, departed for the heavens. And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world. Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence. And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm.

Where does this mention them creating "Heaven"? There's a reason the OBD hasn't accepted universal Goddesses yet. The whole myth itself is questionable since it is literally just a legend passed on through the ages and nothing in the text ever says that they created everything there is.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Xcano, literally stated above in the Hyrule Historia Timeline that they created Heaven & Earth.

 

[LordXcano]

The Hyrule Historia which says it's inaccurate itself?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You're actually completely twisting the meaning of that. They say the Timeline isn't 100% accurate because at any point they could go and make new games. Hell, the timeline is already outdated due to the new games that have come out since.

However, at the point of the release the timeline was 100% accurate and objectively listed the order of events in the Zelda Universe, starting with the creation of the universe by the Golden Goddesses.

 

[LordXcano]

Idk how you turned "This chronicle merely collects information that is believed to be true" into "They're saying it's inaccurate because new games will be added later".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because it's what it effectively means. It's a handway of saying "Oh, this could all change at any moment".

Because it could, if new lore is added. But at the time of release, that was 100% legit lore.

 

[LordXcano]

That may be what the author intent was but the text is the text. We don't need additional speculation on what it may have meant.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is far more illogical to simply discard something completely meant to be taken at face value like an Official Timeline because of the simple fact that it could be retconned in the future.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's literally impossible for Termina and Lorule to be in the same universe as Hyrule.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps we should focus on other unsettled parts of the discussion?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, I want to hear Azathoth's opinion on this. He did say that the Sacred Realm might indeed be another universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

By the way, the Goddesses also created the laws of the universe / laws of physics.

"When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light, and then returned to the heavens. The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm."
"Nayru... Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world."

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to be a good point.

 

[LordXcano]

It's literally impossible for Termina and Lorule to be in the same universe as Hyrule.

I am well aware, but the existence of other universes doesn't mean that said universes must have been made by the Goddesses. All the text says is that their breath "slipped through space-time" and ended up making Termina.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That literally proves they made that universe.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm really waiting for Azzy right now.

 

[LordXcano]

That literally proves they made that universe.

Enlighten me. How does "made Termina" mean "made the entire space-time continuum" in anyway more than "made Earth" means "made the entire space-time continuum"?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ganon might also have Mid-Godly Regenerationn.

He's the reincarnation of Demise--a guy who got his essence eroded away after his remains got sealed in the Master Sword. Holy weapons bypass said regen though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think Low-Godly is more apt, since that is what Ganon has repeatedly portrayed, and Demise still "died". It's just that part of his essence survived as Ganon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Hey, I'm fine with either. In fact, I'll edit in Low Godly right now.

What's your final opinion on the Sacred Realm?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Definitely a separate reality, as seen when it becomes the Dark World, albeit of unknown exact size. Now, as it mirrors Hyrule when Ganon transforms it, it's unlikely he affected the entire thing, since we never see beyond a darkened mirror of Hyrule in the Light World. Reasoning for this would actually be fairly obvious, as it mirrored the desire in Ganon's heart, which was to transform Hyrule into a realm of evil.

That said, Lorule is obviously a separate reality, and that has its own Sacred Realm, too. That was obviously also created by the Goddesses, due to its Triforce.

There's also the Ghostly Ether and Twilight Realm, which are explicitly different from the Light World.

I don't know if there's any statement on the Goddesses and Termina, since the Triforce is absent, there.