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LoZ Top Tier Revisions

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The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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So, turns out, in the Wind Fish's dream world, there's stars and such, and there's constant mention about it being an entire world (the game is mostly focused on a single island, so most of the talk is about this). The Wind Fish creates this casually, the Shadow Nightmares are in control of his entire dream, and Link (A Link to the Past) defeats them. If legit (and I'm not saying it is for sure) Wind Fish should be 4-A, and possibly higher if we take the "world" statement into consideration. The SNs and ALTTP Link in his LW key, along with Composite Link scale as well. I'm not even sure if the Full Triforce scales or not. The Wind Fish is kinda treated as its own thing, and kind of a god. I might be being too conservative though, and the Full Triforce obviously scales, alongside Demise and Hylia and SS Link. Of course, this is on the assumption it's legitimate.

Furthermore, Link seems to climb to outer space real quick.
 
Link is not stated to have the triforce in this game, the dream world is likely also an illusion world with only a few things being real, being Relativistic is enough for him to go to climb to outer space, which is also an illusion.
 
Bump. Also, not an illusion. A dream. A dream which is in complete control of the Wind Fish and his Nightmares.

Think Wind Fish as Azathoth. A much weaker Azathoth
 
In Azathoth case, the entire realities were his dreams while the Fish has a dream world with unknown size with stars in the backgrounds that can be illusions and affecting only an island instead of the planet.
 
False. All we know of is the island because that's where most of the story takes place. The Triforce of Lorule screwed with the entire world, but we only care about the kingdom.

Also, burden of proof is on you to prove that the stars are illusions.
 
If the Wind Fish created a world in which stars are visible, then 4-A seems fine to me.
 
Anyway this is the third time that it happens with the Vaati feats and by knowing him, he was serious. This upgrade will lead me to upgrade FF Chaos to 4-A as well since he has the same feat.
 
The Wind Fish should be 4-A from what I understand, though I don't think it should scale with Link or the Nightmares, as the Nightmares only keep him asleep through keeping the instruments away from the Fish, nothing more.

As for the scaling to the others and the triforce, I also don't know, espically considering that deities in the verse seem to vary between 4-C and 2-C.
 
In Zelda we have The Three Golden Goddesses, which are the god tiers as at least 2-C.

Then we have the normal Dieties, such as the Wind Fish, Demise/Dark Beast Gano, Hylia, Majora and the ones that gave the same energy which Vaati used for his 4-A feats. Ganondorf mentioned to reach these dieties with the triforce, so this also scales to the Triforce Empowered users.
 
It's been a while, but I'm almost 100% certain the Wind Fish's dream is supposed to be Koholint Island, and that said island is the dream. I don't think it's ever stated to extend beyond that.
 
They have a night sky and such, similar how we treat SM64.

Marin's dream was to go beyond the island, so it's likely there's something beyond that as well.
 
Wasn't the entire purpose of Marin's dream being a dream was because there wasn't actually anything beyond the island? That was kind of the point. Nobody (except the Nightmares) knew their entire world was only Koholint Island, just as a character in your dream is often not self aware that it does not actually exist.
 
You underestimate my lucid dreaming lol

In all seriousness, we do have evidence of stars being beyond a cloud barrier there. It's more likely that the island was the only landmass on earth
 
All the things beyond the island can be an illusion because there wasn't anything beyond it as it was the purpose of her dream.
 
I thought only the island was the illusion isn't there a thing in the game where you see the island disappearing and everything else is unaffected? Or am I thinking of a different game?
 
The whole 4-A dream thing may seem outlierish at first, but I think this makes much more sense when put into the context of this being a series in which we have such feats as: Vaati's feat (which is admittedly uncertain), Demise creating a pocket universe (which we lowball to what we can see), Ganon's influence over the Dark World (which we lowball to the planet only, even though the place is an alternate universe), and all sorts of statements claiming the Triforce is "omnipotent" or has "infinite power."

I'm no expert on these things, but I think perhaps the big picture will look very different when taking all these things together in consideration.
 
Actually, @FDF is right. The Dark World is a corruption of the Sacred Realm, which is an alternate universe. It's supposed to be the same size as the other AUs of the Zelda universe, which we treat as full sized (due to the Goddesses tiering), and it has its own light source, official artwork has it having a moon, etc.
 
Here you go! I think this site has scans of issues of Nintendo Power, as well. I'd give the individual links, but there are brackets in the URLs that mess with Wikia. Just press the Ctrl and F keyes to search the list! Check out that beautifully illustrated Link to the Past guide!
 
I think both sides do have very legitimate arguments here. I could lean either way depending on how this goes, but for now I am inclined to go with Cal and Freeman.
 
Sacred Realm
200px-Triforce (Ocarina of Time)
Just showing pictures of the sacred realm, in which the Hyrule end of it at the very least has a sun and a moon
 
Also, at the very least, it makes this Solar System sized. Given that there's a distance from here to the Sun, it's explicitly stated that the Temple of Light is the very center of the Sacred Realm
 
If the deities in the series are capable of creating realms with suns in them casually, then I don't see this as a very big jump.
 
Basically, these are the things being discussed. All scale to Full Triforce users, Demise/Hylia, and Calamity Ganon, and nothing else.

4-B: Size of the Sacred Realm lowball via Earth Sun distance only being half of the size of the place.

4-A: Size of the Wind Fish's dream, due to stars being present when going to the WF.

3-A: Size of the Sacred Realm due to it being a parallel universe of full size, going by the tiering of the Three Golden Goddesses.
 
Like Matt pointed out, both sides made pretty good arguments, so I feel pretty neutral towards it all. That is to say that the changes seems reasonable enough to me - so far I think I can agree with Cal's suggestions, but whatever gets decided, I'll be ok with that as well.
 
It is probably best to wait until Azathoth has the chance to respond though.
 
"TO THE FINDER... THE ISLE OF KOHOLINT, IS BUT AN ILLUSION... HUMAN, MONSTER, SEA, SKY... A SCENE ON THE LID OF A SLEEPER'S EYE... AWAKE THE DREAMER, AND KOHOLINT WILL VANISH MUCH LIKE A BUBBLE ON A NEEDLE... CAST-AWAY, YOU SHOULD KNOW THE TRUTH!"

^This in-game shrine is one of many that refers to Koholint itself as the Wind Fish's dream. It also suggests the things around Koholint to be merely illusionary as part of the dream. This would suggest that the Wind Fish is not creating stars by dreaming. It is creating a sky around its imaginary island with the visage of stars.

"We were born of nightmares... To take over this world, we made the Wind Fish sleep endlessly! If the Wind Fish doesn't wake up, this island will never disappear! We would have been masters of this place... But you had to come here and disrupt our plans!"

^The Nightmare refers to Koholint as the "world" that is the Wind Fish's dream.

"Hoot! Hoot! So you are the lad who owns the sword...Now I understand why the monsters are starting to act so violently... A courageous lad has come to wake the Wind Fish... It is said that you cannot leave the island unless you wake the Wind Fish..."

^Owl once more confirms the island of Koholint is the world of the Wind Fish's dream, and states that you cannot leave the island unless you wake the Fish. This once more states that Koholint = the dream world.

I can pull more than a dozen additional quotes from the game that say basically the same thing, but it seems pretty obvious to me that the Wind Fish's dream is Koholint, not Koholint, an entire planet, and multiple solar systems.
 
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