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Ever heard of Creation Ex Nihilo, Cano?
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LoZ Top Tier Revisions
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
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- #82
How do people feel about separating the GG's profiles into Din, Nayru, and Farore?
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I like it, Cal. Can you do it?
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Yes, I can.
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It says they made the world from Chaos. In other words, they created the universe.
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>God formed the Earth from messy water.
I don't even wanna debate this with you, but that's pretty much the most basic, layman interpretation of what Tehom is.
Creation Myths use metaphors like Primordial Waters, Chaotic Lakes, Abyssal Seas to convey a state of shapeless and endless chaos, from which the world was ordered. Genesis I is no different from that.
Hell, if you really wanna get into deeper analysis of it, you could go read into Kaballah stuff.
In a Creation Myth context, The Goddesses creating the world from Chaos, specially in conjunction to the statement that they predate time itself, means that they formed the universe from a primordial state of chaos.
This is basic stuff. You are just arguing semantics.
I don't even wanna debate this with you, but that's pretty much the most basic, layman interpretation of what Tehom is.
Creation Myths use metaphors like Primordial Waters, Chaotic Lakes, Abyssal Seas to convey a state of shapeless and endless chaos, from which the world was ordered. Genesis I is no different from that.
Hell, if you really wanna get into deeper analysis of it, you could go read into Kaballah stuff.
In a Creation Myth context, The Goddesses creating the world from Chaos, specially in conjunction to the statement that they predate time itself, means that they formed the universe from a primordial state of chaos.
This is basic stuff. You are just arguing semantics.
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Again, basic interpretation. The Chaos here is the typical chaos of Creation Myths, a formless state before the universe was created and / or ordered. Considering how the Goddesses predate time, and they descended from Heaven into Chaos, and then formed the world, then this also proves that they created time, as time starts with the birth of the universe.
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Here's the whole myth.
Before time began, before spirits and life existed... Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule... Din, the goddess of power... Nayru, the goddess of wisdom... Farore, the goddess of courage...
Din... With her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth. Nayru... Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world. Farore... With her rich soul, produced all life forms which would uphold the law.
The three great goddess, their labors completed, departed for the heavens. And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world. Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence. And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm.
All this says is that they came down to Hyrule before time and sculpted the Earth. Nothing about this says they created time the universe or any of that.
Before time began, before spirits and life existed... Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule... Din, the goddess of power... Nayru, the goddess of wisdom... Farore, the goddess of courage...
Din... With her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth. Nayru... Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world. Farore... With her rich soul, produced all life forms which would uphold the law.
The three great goddess, their labors completed, departed for the heavens. And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world. Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence. And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm.
All this says is that they came down to Hyrule before time and sculpted the Earth. Nothing about this says they created time the universe or any of that.
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You are focusing on the semantics there, once again. Yes, they say "Hyrule", but that is the equivalent of a real-life creation myth saying "Earth". You shouldn't expect these things to have scientific terms from modern times.
Regardless, they are the Creator Goddesses of the Zelda Universe and they created the universe out of chaos.
Regardless, they are the Creator Goddesses of the Zelda Universe and they created the universe out of chaos.
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Reading the myth, that sounds like blatant universe creation.
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"Regardless, they are the Creator Goddesses of the Zelda Universe and they created the universe out of chaos."
Again, evidence. All I'm seeing is speculation. Please show me one instance where any character in every Zelda game ever made has said "The Goddesses made the whole universe".
Again, evidence. All I'm seeing is speculation. Please show me one instance where any character in every Zelda game ever made has said "The Goddesses made the whole universe".
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You literally posted the Creation Myth of the Zelda Universe. It's not my fault that you are arguing semantics and expecting that the creation myth of a medieval society mention a universe, planets and stuff.
It doesn't matter if they say they created "Hyrule", they created the world (Called Hyrule just like our Creation Myths use Earth) out of Chaos.
This is a blatant Universe creation feat.
It doesn't matter if they say they created "Hyrule", they created the world (Called Hyrule just like our Creation Myths use Earth) out of Chaos.
This is a blatant Universe creation feat.
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Heck, its said they created Termina, a parallel universe, by accident.
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"It doesn't matter if they say they created "Hyrule", they created the world (Called Hyrule just like our Creation Myths use Earth) out of Chaos."
Prove that "Hyrule" = "Universe" and not just the planet
"Heck, its said they created Termina, a parallel universe, by accident."
Prove that "Termina" = "Universe" and not just the planet
Prove that "Hyrule" = "Universe" and not just the planet
"Heck, its said they created Termina, a parallel universe, by accident."
Prove that "Termina" = "Universe" and not just the planet
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Xcano, you do understand that it makes 0 sense contextually for the Goddesses to arrive in the Chaos that was everything before there was time, and only create a planet, right?
You do realize that stuff like stars exist in the Zelda Universe, and that it is a universe created by the Golden Goddeses.
Once again, you are overly fixated on the fact that they use "Hyrule" and not "Universe" and completely ignore the context of what it's being said as a Creation Myth. This is the same type of flawed logic that leads to Fedora-tipping atheists to downplay real-life religious deities like Yahweh, Ra or Odin, because the Creation Myths don't reflect the scientific knowledge of the 21th Century.
It doesn't matter that it says Hyrule and not Universe, because this is the in-universe Creation Myth of the Hyrule people, which we also know for a fact is true. It's only logical for the people of Hyrule's medieval society to say "Hyrule" and not "Universe" in their telling, even though this is only their limited understanding of the creation of everything.
You do realize that stuff like stars exist in the Zelda Universe, and that it is a universe created by the Golden Goddeses.
Once again, you are overly fixated on the fact that they use "Hyrule" and not "Universe" and completely ignore the context of what it's being said as a Creation Myth. This is the same type of flawed logic that leads to Fedora-tipping atheists to downplay real-life religious deities like Yahweh, Ra or Odin, because the Creation Myths don't reflect the scientific knowledge of the 21th Century.
It doesn't matter that it says Hyrule and not Universe, because this is the in-universe Creation Myth of the Hyrule people, which we also know for a fact is true. It's only logical for the people of Hyrule's medieval society to say "Hyrule" and not "Universe" in their telling, even though this is only their limited understanding of the creation of everything.
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"You do realize that stuff like stars exist in the Zelda Universe, and that it is a universe created by the Golden Goddeses."
Yes. And never once is it said the stars, or the verse itself, is the doing of the Goddesses.
"It doesn't matter that it says Hyrule and not Universe, because this is the in-universe Creation Myth of the Hyrule people, which we also know for a fact is true."
We don't, actually. The Goddesses have never appeared on screen to personally attest to the myth's accuracy.
Yes. And never once is it said the stars, or the verse itself, is the doing of the Goddesses.
"It doesn't matter that it says Hyrule and not Universe, because this is the in-universe Creation Myth of the Hyrule people, which we also know for a fact is true."
We don't, actually. The Goddesses have never appeared on screen to personally attest to the myth's accuracy.
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It was literally stated that they created the world out of chaos, but once again you are fixating exclusively on semantics for the sake of downplaying the feat.
And yes, we do know it's a fact. The Triforce was literally created by them and it exists, and lesser mythological deities from the Zeldaverse such as Hylia and Demise are also real living entities. It makes 0 sense to assume that their story isn't accurate, specially since we do see them on screen. When the Deku Tree explains their myth, the game actually shows them creating the world.
And yes, we do know it's a fact. The Triforce was literally created by them and it exists, and lesser mythological deities from the Zeldaverse such as Hylia and Demise are also real living entities. It makes 0 sense to assume that their story isn't accurate, specially since we do see them on screen. When the Deku Tree explains their myth, the game actually shows them creating the world.
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Is there literally any difference in me using semantics to say it's just the planet and you using semantics to say it was the entire universe?
We don't know for a fact the Triforce was made by them. The existence of other deities doesn't confirm the existence of all deities. The Deku just shows them coming down from the clouds and flying around for a bit before leaving again.
We don't know for a fact the Triforce was made by them. The existence of other deities doesn't confirm the existence of all deities. The Deku just shows them coming down from the clouds and flying around for a bit before leaving again.
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Not using semantics, Cano, I'm using basic interpretation given how Creation Myths work, and given your interpretation of Genesis I you're likely not well acostumed with those.
No, we do know that the Triforce was made by them. This is literally stated all the time even by Omniscient Narrators, and the Ocarina of Time Flashbacks shows them descending into a misty nothingness and creating the world, and leaving behind the Triforce.
And Occan's Razor would dictate that if lesser important Hyrule Myths are literally true, then their most important Myth would also be.
No, we do know that the Triforce was made by them. This is literally stated all the time even by Omniscient Narrators, and the Ocarina of Time Flashbacks shows them descending into a misty nothingness and creating the world, and leaving behind the Triforce.
And Occan's Razor would dictate that if lesser important Hyrule Myths are literally true, then their most important Myth would also be.
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My dad is literally a theologian you can interpret myths in a bajillion different ways. There's a reason modern religions have 180,384,00 different sects each.
When does an omniscient narrator state this?
Uh... what? That makes no sense whatsoever. If many small facts of science like "the sun is hot" and "gravity hurts from a high height" are true that doesn't lead any credence to "the Earth was shaped by Xetans 18.3 trillion years ago" also being true just because it's more important.
When does an omniscient narrator state this?
Uh... what? That makes no sense whatsoever. If many small facts of science like "the sun is hot" and "gravity hurts from a high height" are true that doesn't lead any credence to "the Earth was shaped by Xetans 18.3 trillion years ago" also being true just because it's more important.
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Your dad is a theologian and you think Genesis I is about making land rise from waters?
In plenty of opening narrations, guidebooks, strategy guides, etc.
That's a false equivalency. You literally jumped from scientific facts to a random crackpot conspiracy theory, while I went from lesser facts about the Hyrule Religion being literally true to reaching the conclusion to that their most important myth must all be true.
In plenty of opening narrations, guidebooks, strategy guides, etc.
That's a false equivalency. You literally jumped from scientific facts to a random crackpot conspiracy theory, while I went from lesser facts about the Hyrule Religion being literally true to reaching the conclusion to that their most important myth must all be true.
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Never said that, just that I'm plenty aware of creation myths in general.
Link?
If Superman has a religion made out of him and part of that religion was that he saved an airplane that doesn't then mean that the part of the religion where he formed the multiverse is also true.
Link?
If Superman has a religion made out of him and part of that religion was that he saved an airplane that doesn't then mean that the part of the religion where he formed the multiverse is also true.
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You actually said it in a few posts above.
Thats alos a false equivalency, Cano. You're talking about a mortal with powers gaining religious followers. We are talking about the literal supreme deities of the Zelda Universe. Next you're going to tell me that the Three Golden Goddesses are actually just aliens because of the outdated Link to the Past statement that they came from another star / nebula.
Thats alos a false equivalency, Cano. You're talking about a mortal with powers gaining religious followers. We are talking about the literal supreme deities of the Zelda Universe. Next you're going to tell me that the Three Golden Goddesses are actually just aliens because of the outdated Link to the Past statement that they came from another star / nebula.
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When did I say that my dad has said to me "God just raised some land from the Earth"?
Is there any difference between a god and an person with a lot of power other than title?
It's 100% likely that the myths the Hylians have are heavily misinterpreted, as both the Hyrule Historia and Aonuma have said this and that their idea of the past is open to change and interpretation.
Is there any difference between a god and an person with a lot of power other than title?
It's 100% likely that the myths the Hylians have are heavily misinterpreted, as both the Hyrule Historia and Aonuma have said this and that their idea of the past is open to change and interpretation.
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Yeah, Matt's right. The ALTTP old statement also claimed that they were dudes instead of girls. It got retconned hard.
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That's not what I said you said. I said you said that, without influence of your dad, because you said that.
Yes, plenty.
And that really doens't matter when the Golden Goddesses are real and literally created the universe.
Yes, plenty.
And that really doens't matter when the Golden Goddesses are real and literally created the universe.
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Yes I said that. I was saying that, having had 17 years of experience with a theologian, I am accostumed to creation myths.
...Such as?
Do you have evidence that the Goddesses are real and that they made the universe? Because so far literally all we have is a high end interpretation of a legend that is in-canon open for change and debate. And if you wanna go with what the Deku shows than the feat is even worse because the atmosphere is depicted as having existed by the time the Goddesses came down to Hyrule.
...Such as?
Do you have evidence that the Goddesses are real and that they made the universe? Because so far literally all we have is a high end interpretation of a legend that is in-canon open for change and debate. And if you wanna go with what the Deku shows than the feat is even worse because the atmosphere is depicted as having existed by the time the Goddesses came down to Hyrule.
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Appeal to Authority. What you said was still objectively false. And let's not dwell on Bible stuff anymore.
Dude, you can literally look at any piece of fiction that deals with the difference between men and gods in a more metaphysical way, talking about a hierarchy in reality and higher levels of being, and treating their godly feats less like superpowers and more like consequences of their state as gods.
Nope, they're real. You are literally going with the lowest-end interpretation based on pure semantics, and arguing that it is fake news in verse because of a quote about a completely separate subject.
Dude, you can literally look at any piece of fiction that deals with the difference between men and gods in a more metaphysical way, talking about a hierarchy in reality and higher levels of being, and treating their godly feats less like superpowers and more like consequences of their state as gods.
Nope, they're real. You are literally going with the lowest-end interpretation based on pure semantics, and arguing that it is fake news in verse because of a quote about a completely separate subject.
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There still isn't really much difference between being in a higher state of being and abstract and whatnot and just being really really damn powerful.
Do you have any evidence the Goddesses are real? You're literally going with the highest-end interpretation based on tropes from unrelated religions. There isn't really much difference between our two arguments here.
Do you have any evidence the Goddesses are real? You're literally going with the highest-end interpretation based on tropes from unrelated religions. There isn't really much difference between our two arguments here.
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Check the literal first thing, bro.
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Now that that's out of the way, Solar System or Universe for Sacred Realm. All evidence points to the latter, but the former is a safe choice.
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1. The Hyrule Historia literally says: "This chronicle merely collects information that is believed to be true at this time, and there are many obscured and unanswered secrets that still lie within the tale. As the stories and storytellers of Hyrule change, so, too, does its history. Hyrule's history is a continuously woven tapestry of events. Changes that seem inconsequential, disregarded without even a shrug, could evolve at some point to hatch new legends and, perhaps, change this tapestry of history itself."
2. Aonuma himself has said the timeline isn't 100% accurate: "Hyrule's history has changed with time, and even now there are some occasions of canon histories becoming slightly changed. Some detailed parts in the history books have been changed as well."
2. Aonuma himself has said the timeline isn't 100% accurate: "Hyrule's history has changed with time, and even now there are some occasions of canon histories becoming slightly changed. Some detailed parts in the history books have been changed as well."
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Isn't there a statement that says the Golden Goddesses (Din I think) accidently created millions of alternate worlds with a breath and then noted that Termina is such one world in which Termina has it's own moon (stated somewhere in games, hell if I know that it only recently changed it's appearance) and Termina kinda also has its own sun. Pretty sure that warrants at least solar system if they created a planet, moon and sun system accidently.
On a side note in the creation cutscene when Nayru flies by ya can see the sun appear out of nothing, not sure if any of this helps but may as well add some info.
On a side note in the creation cutscene when Nayru flies by ya can see the sun appear out of nothing, not sure if any of this helps but may as well add some info.
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