Low 2-C Upgrade for StarCraft's Amon and Sarah Kerrigan (Xel'Naga form)

[Assaltwaffle]

During a cinematic cutscene of StarCraft 2: Legacy of the Void, Ouros, an ancient Xel'Naga, informs the protagonists that he is against Amon. He also states that Amon is one with the Void (which is an entirely separate universe, completely disconnected from the standard material universe) and that it is an extension of his will. This would put Amon's True Form at Low 2-C after he takes full control of the Void, which occurs after the war of the Xel'Naga, would it not?

https://youtu.be/WlVotIExvb8?t=48s

Sarah then combines with Ouros, and subsequently kills Amon. Although not explicitly stated, it is implied that Kerrigan also destroyed the Void along with Amon, and this connection furthers that.

Opinions? Is this a sufficient feat to move Amon and Kerrigan to Low 2-C? I know this is a big jump from their previous placements, and that Tier 2s are locked, which are some of the reasons I am asking for opinions in this before jumping to conclusions.

Edit: Concluded. Low 2-C upgrade replaced with 3-A upgrade.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Bump.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Bump

 

[Cropfist]

Looks alright.

 

[LazyHunter]

Is there a statement or anything that gives the size of the void as of that an entire universe? And that Kerrigan destroyed it together with Amon? I'm not really familiar with the circumstances of the fight between her and Amon, since I've only played the first game. Anyway, if those things are true and Amon really had full control over the Void, he and Kerrigan should probably be Low 2-C while inside the Void, as even his current page notes that his power over the normal world is limited while he's not there.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Is there a statement or anything that gives the size of the void as of that an entire universe? And that Kerrigan destroyed it together with Amon? I'm not really familiar with the circumstances of the fight between her and Amon, since I've only played the first game. Anyway, if those things are true and Amon really had full control over the Void, he and Kerrigan should probably be Low 2-C while inside the Void, as even his current page notes that his power over the normal world is limited while he's not there.

Unfortunately, there is no statement as to the size of the Void, though it looks just as large (has stars and galaxy-like objects in the distance) and is confirmed to have its own timeline. The Void is seperate from the material universe and survives the infinite cycle of universes being destroyed and created. The Void became unstable after Kerrigan kills Amon, and she tells the protagonists to flee. It is unclear if the Void is destroyed, as I am unaware of the Dark Templar can canonically still draw power from it.

 

[LazyHunter]

Well, him having control over the Void and it being similar to the material universe seems reasonable, but without any proof beyond those visuals I don't know if it would be accepted. I think there were other similar debates with Devil May Cry's Mundus. If others are OK with it, maybe a "possibly Universe level inside the void" would be fine until proof of its size can be determined.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if a character is one with a universe, it definitely warrants at least a 3-A rating, but to get Low 2-C, the character must be one with the entire timeline/space-time continuum. I do not think that they are necessarily the same thing.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I can see that. There is basically no way to tell if Amon explicitly became one with all the Void's timeline, so Low 2-C seems out of reach right now.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Emm So why kerrigan still 5-A while amon is 3-A?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Good point; forgot Kerrigan. Changed.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

This is kinda out of topic but I will update Kerrigan Primal Queen of Blades stamina base on this:

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Btw I have some weird double post issue(for weeks) so don't mind me if i was double posting.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

This is kinda out of topic but I will update Kerrigan Primal Queen of Blades stamina base on this:

Solid stamina feat for Kerrigan. Thank you for your contribution!

 

[Kuwabara!]

Even though it is stated by Ouros that Amon was "one with the Void", it is clear that he did not have full control over the Void. If he had full control over the Void, he should have easily been able defeat the Allied forces that supported Kerrigan as soon as they invaded. The best he could do was send conjured Void Shades against them.

The Void did not disappear after Amon's death either. Alarak draws his psionic power from the Void (enhanced by Terrazine, which brings him closer to the Void) and was still capable of doing so during his appearance in Nova: Covert Operations. The Tal'darim, whose psi-blades are power by the Void, were able to use them in Nova: Covert Operations after Amon's death.

Finally, Zurvan's quote during the Heart of the Swarm seemed to indicate that Amon could destroy entire planets if he was at full power.

I think Ouros' quote was meant to show that Amon had great power in the Void, as he could use it as "an extension of his will". But being completely one with the Void? No, there is too much showing the contrary.

 

[Aparajita]

Actually, Kerrigan states that "this timeline, all timelines have led up to this moment."

The Void is supposed to be a shadowy version of the universe, espically with Co-OP missions being canon in Blizzard lore now, with Void Threshlings appearing all over the universe, like Char, Shakurius, and Korhal.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Zurvan never meet with amon True form but he meet with his previous physical form before he was defeated and banished to the void by other xel'naga.

 

[Kuwabara!]

^ That is true. However, Amon's physical Xel'Naga body back then may or may not have been more powerful than his Void form. I'm merely assuming they are around the same level of power.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

That is speculation.

 

[Kuwabara!]

Well, what we do know is that Amon was said to be powerful enough to destroy planets. But then again, this appears to hold as much water as him being stated to be one with the Void.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

He also said to be more difficult to kill than destroy the rest of stars in the galaxy, also appears can also mean just limitation to game mechanics, or like we rated alex mercer city level despite he can be killed by bullets.

 

[Kuwabara!]

This statement came from a Tal'darim fanatic who worshipped Amon as a god. I doubt it is accurate, since the same fanatics stated that their psi-blades could be honed to cleave a planet in half.

Also, going by Artanis' statements in LotV, the physical body is actually more powerful than the Void body, as it contains the Void form of the Xel'Naga in question. So, if anything, when Amon was faced in the Void at the end of LotV, he at most planet-busting level.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

The same with Zurvan as he said kerrigan is boundless.

Also, going by Artanis' statements in LotV, the physical body is actually more powerful than the Void body, as it contains the Void form of the Xel'Naga in question.

Artanis never meet with his form that Zurvan meet.

 

[Kuwabara!]

A bit different. "Boundless" is an absolute term and can be used as hyperbole. Saying Kerrigan is "boundless" could just be a way of saying she is immensely powerful.

Kerrigan stated that she feels as though she could "tear worlds apart." Obvious hyperbole. Zurvan replied that Amon "TRULY could tear worlds apart." I'm less inclined to take it as hyperbole, as he was stating it in contrast to Kerrigan's use of hyperbole.

 

[Kuwabara!]

The statement Artanis made had nothing to do with Zurvan. Artanis merely stated that when a new universe is formed, the Void form of a Xel'Naga enters the universe as a physical Xel'Naga. If that physical form is destroyed or if the universe is destroyed, the Void form of the Xel'Naga is thrust into the Void.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Only at that point she is not powerful enough for zulvan, only after she take the essence from the rest of pack leader.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

The statement Artanis made had nothing to do with Zurvan. Artanis merely stated that when a new universe is formed, the Void form of a Xel'Naga enters the universe as a physical Xel'Naga. If that physical form is destroyed or if the universe is destroyed, the Void form of the Xel'Naga is thrust into the Void.

So? every Xel'Naga that killed will be banished back to the void.

 

[Kuwabara!]

^ True.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

so what? it merely their immortality feat.

 

[Kuwabara!]

The Xel'Naga are not immortal. Infested Stukov killed the Xel'Naga form of Samir Duran. Amon himself was a lot stronger and could not be killed by any of the Terran or Protoss' war machines. Only Ascended Kerrigan possessed enough power to destroy Amon.

However, Amon did not possess enough power in the Void to outright destroy the Allied forces. If Amon truly possessed universal-level powers, he should have easily been able to do so. Unless the Terran, Zerg and Protoss war-machines approach universe-destroying levels...

 

[Assaltwaffle]

so what? it merely their immortality feat.

They aren't immortal. They are extremely long lived, but are mortals.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Okay it not, it their regen feat despite kinda unused to their physical form, so what that has to do with your Artanis statement again?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

And going back to the argument stating that Amon's physical form is stronger than his Void form, if that is the case Kerrigan had no reason to become a Xel'naga, since not only the Protoss entered the Void, but the Terrans and Zerg also joined. The thing is, the powers and abilities of the Xel'naga are not fully fleshed out and vary WILDLY with the writer. In some points, they are overrun and beaten by the Zerg swarm; others they are said to be planet, then galaxy, then Ouros gives a universe level statement.

 

[Kuwabara!]

Actually, Kerrigan had every reason to become a Xel'Naga, even if Amon's physical form was stronger than his Void form. Since Amon's physical body (the original one) was already destroyed by the original Xel'Naga, it is impossible to quantify how powerful his original form was (unless Zurvan was referring to Amon's original body). All we know is that it took the powers of a Xel'Naga to defeat his physical form.

I can't remember who said it (Ouros?), but the only thing that could hurt Amon was another sufficiently powerful Xel'Naga. Kerrigan was the only one left who could do it. The combined Terran/Protoss/Zerg forces did not have anything that could completely destroy Amon. They were powerful enough to contest his power, though. Otherwise, the final battle doesn't make sense.

And yes, I believe that it is possible that a Xel'Naga could truly become "one with the Void", as there was that prophecy spoken of by Zeratul, stating that the Xel'Naga were the ones who "forged the stars" and referred to the entire universe as being their creation. It does differ, depending on the writer. But one thing is for sure - Amon was not truly one with the Void. The events of LotV confirm it.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Perhaps he truly was one with the Void, but recently dying, even in another body, weakens him. That is the way I see it, at least. Ouros, an incredibly intelligent and knowledgeable Xel'naga would have no reason to lie about that power he had, and would have full awareness of it considering how long he was subjugated to that power.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

They not powerful enough contest his power as jim say that when they meet with amon in the void with only kerrigan who say that she can handle amon and only small number of what left from Xel'Naga that manage to beat him, the rest is supposed to destroy by the overmind zerg.

 

[Kuwabara!]

I agree that Ouros was an intelligent being and would know what he was talking about. But when I played the game, I interpreted Ouros' statement about Amon being "one with the Void" to mean that Amon was just really powerful in the Void and able to use it as he willed, not literally being capable of wielding the full power of the Void. His quote came in the Epilogue missions as well (when Amon was weakened).

The Allied forces were strong enough to contest his power. Think about it: Amon could emulate Zerg units and Terran and Protoss technology. If he was universal-level, he could have just conjured up a billion Protoss Arkships and annihilated them. But he didn't - he barely had enough power to conjure an army equal the Terran/Zerg/Protoss war machines. That alone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is not universe-level.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

If you talking about the last(and second last) battle when he face them directly, kerrigan help them to defeat amon.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

If he meant that Amon is just really strong, even if he wanted to be hypobolic, he would have said "his power is limitless" or something along those lines. "One with the void" is a very specific.

He was not equal to the Allied forces, he was completely immune to them. I believe that he may indeed be universal at max power, but being killed, even in his host body, drains his power and weakens him. That way he would retain his durability but be unable to retaliate. It is the only explanation for Ouros' statement and the presented events.

 

[Kuwabara!]

"One with the Void" is hyperbolic - the fact that I naturally interpreted this to be so shows that the statement isn't a given to be literal. Another example is if someone is said to be "one with the blade." It doesn't mean they are literally the blade, or the blade fuses to their skin and literally becomes part of them. It speaks of their swordsmanship and their ability to use the blade. The same is true with Amon. If he is "one with the Void", it speaks of his mastery of the Void.

As I stated before, only another sufficiently powerful Xel'Naga had the firepower to put Amon down for good. So yes, I agree that Amon was immune to the Allied forces firepower. But if you read my last post, Amon's power was only enough to make constructs equal to the Protoss/Zerg/Terran war machine. If he was universal-level, he would have VASTLY more constructs. But he couldn't manage that - his mastery of the Void, whilst great, was limited and well below universe-level.

And yes, Amon was definitely weakened before the final battle. However, it was when he was in this weakened state that Ouros said that Amon was one with the Void. That would mean that, even weakened, he would be universe-level (if the statement was taken literally). He should have still had enough power to conjure up a billion Arkships, but he only had enough power to conjure army equal to the Terran/Zerg/Protoss war machines.