Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"In Super Paper Mario, Mario, Peach, and Bowser survive the Incomplete Void, during its destruction of the Sammer Kingdom Dimension.

It doesn't even look like they were hit with it, that's my issue. IT's more like the collapse of the Sammer Kingdom sent them into another dimension, rather than them being hit with the full force.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll go through everything step by step when I can; but the OP has a combination of stuff that are solid and others that are way out of context.

 

[Ari64-SP]

It doesn't even look like they were hit with it, that's my issue. IT's more like the collapse of the Sammer Kingdom sent them into another dimension, rather than them being hit with the full force.

Bro what? It very clearly shows whe peach is, being engulfed in the explosio.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

One obviously bullshit thing right off the bat: The Shadow Queen needs the Crystal Hearts to destroy the universe which naturally means she is not universal without them and there's no reason her power scales to the artifacts
If I create a bomb that can blow up a house that is not evidence that I 9-A at all let alone something on a universal scale.

We don't accept creaton of weapons and artifacts to scale to AP or else they'd have no point.

Who said the Shadow Queen needed it, Grodus was the one using them. The reason for scaling is due to her literally being able to take hits from it, plus we allow creating artifact scaling to your creation. Damn, I didn't know you can create a bomb out of thin air, if so, yeah you are 9-A. Anyways, Shadow Queen surviving it and fighting others like Grubba who use a Crystal Star supports it.

Ollie's feat isn't Low 2-C either because folding the fabric of reality isn't evidence of universal scale it just means he has some degree of reality warping and that's it.

Him turning the world into Origami in the context of the game only scales to the entire planet really. There's no evidence world means universe there.

Why would it not be on a universal scale? Why would the fabric of reality only be planetary? That's immense ******* downplay on purpose, because the fabric of reality is the universe and the time, this is exactly why the Grand Star was Low 2-C, there is no difference here. Fabric of reality is not planet only.

Why does it's power to create a universe scales to it's durability and attack potency?

We are having a Staff thread on world / dimension creation feats and we now agree that without further evidence they don't scale.

Because it uses other magic-like attacks to harm Wario, unless the thread is concluded, I don't want to hear it. No reason why we cannot scale.

Literally how is any of this universal.

"Changed a dream into a nightmare" isn't an AP feat it's just hax. We've been over this in other threads.

How does Antasma's ability to manipulate dreams:

1. Affect his physical attack potency.
2. Relate to his durability.

The answer is that it doesn't, Hax dream manipulation isn't an Attack Potency feat and Mario fighting Antasma is completely unrelated to it.

Changing a dream into a nightmare is quite literally an ap feat indeed. Completely turning a dream and changing all of it into a nightmare is Low 2-C, Wart is unrelated because I had nothing to show what his spell did/he sustained something. Antasma's is outright shown.

- "Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc.

This still applies, Matt.

1. Because his powers coming from the dream world actually amplify his power, as stated by Antasma himself.
2. From scaling, easy as that.

Everything in the universe survived the reset because the universe was reset and restored back to normal.

If the Bowser from the old universe survived on his own there would be two Bowsers.

Also accounting for Bowser's surface area this feat is at most Tier 5. A universal explosion that stretches along the universe isn't going to be universal around a single person.

That would imply Rosalina's shield wouldn't do shit, because then there would be two Mario's and Rosalina's by your own logic. So yes, Bowser surviving it does not mean there will be two Bowser's. Also surface area doesn't work on resetting a universe, especially when it was the fabric of the universe. Destroying all of time would not let you have varying power in your destruction my guy.

Bowser doesn't scale to the Grand Star at all. The same source you use also states that he cannot touch the energy contained in the Star Reactor without burning himself up.

Just because Bowser is using the "Grand Star" to empower himself at the end doesn't mean he is using it's full power.

Being empowered by something doesn't mean you scale to its full power anyways unless you can prove the thing was completely exhausted.

Okay, and how is that a refute, what the ****? Being harmed by the source of power means... you can't scale? The burn itself doesn't even defeat Bowser, he can be burnt by it as much as he wants, only Mario hitting Bowser will actually count as a hit. To make a claim that someone will not scale to an item's full power is bullshit without ANY type of evidence. Prove that it only applies to part of their power, because that's a bigger assumption than how it usually goes.

And speaking of invalid sources...

This is from the American Mario Galaxy manual. As discussed before, this is unnaceptable as Mario is a Japanese Game and game manuals frequently changed things for the American Release, thus the Japanese manual should be used instead.

This is from the American Nintendo Power Guide. As discussed previously in other Mario Threads, you cannot use Nintendo Power Guides for Mario Games as they are not made or written by the same people involved with writing the games and can often make stuff up on the spot for flavor text to an american audience. Nintendo Power guides were rejected for Wart and should also be rejected for scaling Mario 64.

Likewise, these are unnaceptable too for coming from the same Nintendo Power Guide.

If the two main sources that the OP Blaze is using to argue for Low 2-C Power Star creation are both invalid, then Mario 64 isn't Low 2-C either.

- "Everything we write is based on our own opinions. Information we use comes from the companies, or is correct to our knowledge. News, previews and release dates are based on the informaton we found to be true at the time of going to press."

Make an actual CRT denying other sources, because we clearly allow guides and manuals as actual in-game lore, it's accepted and on profiles. You'd have to prove that the American sources contradict the original source, which the claim you make with no evidence. Again, revise the allowance on guides and such, because we already allow these sources. This is still not Matt Wiki, you are not picking the rules.

This again is a matter of size and distance. The Void destroyed the Sammer Kingdom universe, yes, but being caught up in the destruction of a universe isn't a Low 2-C feat if you're a human-sized person who wasn't in the epicenter of the blast. The void appears behind the characters in the background and destroys the dimension, with them falling on another universe after that. They were caught in the collateral of a Low 2-C feat, they weren't hit with it directly in the first place.

I always use this example, but there's a Marvel Comics character (Basilisk) who was blasted with the Big Bang and his resulting durability from the feat was Moon level because the calculation made had to account for his size relative to the universe-expanding size of the blast.

Being caught up in a void that erases all of space and time is still Low 2-C, distance is literally irrelevant. There are no weaker parts of time, the entire thing would have to be Low 2-C. This argument only applies to anything High Universal or below, the Big Bang isn't Low 2-C.

1. If they need help from the Pixls why does this scale to the Ancients on their own?

2. How did they make these worlds? Was it instantaneously with reality-warping? Did they build them over time (Which would only be 3-B?) If there is no context this can't be immediately applied to AP.

Also the very same scene you use says, IN THE EXACT FOLLOWING LINE:

"But this amazing technology was lost." meaning that the Ancients used their technology to built the worlds, not reality-warping magic that instantly scales to AP.

There is no context behind the Ancients creating worlds with Pixls and as such giving every Ancient Low 2-C AP based on this off-hand statement is unnaceptable.

Every single feat in this thread has glaring issues.

1. Because guess what, they created the Pixls via magic.

2. Nothing implies it was overtime, especially when they made many different worlds, such as Flipside which was also stated. I'm not even sure why taking time to create a different universe that has its own time is 3-B, that makes little sense.

Technology is referring to the Pixls, which we already discussed. They're still stated to have created dimensions without the Pixls here.

Every single argument in these posts has glaring issues.

The Shadow Queen is also not at full power when Mario and crew fight her:

"I have been resurrected. My new body and my soul have not yet fully merged and it'll take some time to get fully accustomed."

And then in the Climax of the game everyone in the world starts cheering for Mario with the Star Stones that have been scattered, giving him the necessary power to defeat the Shadow Queen. In the first phase of the Boss Fight you literally cannot damage her.

"Mario, can you hear that? It's everyone...Everyone is giving us their power."

So I am fine with Low 2-C Crystal Stars / Star Stones but it couldn't blatantly not scale to Mario.

Uh oh, looks like Matt doesn't know the full context.

- "I have been resurrected. My new body and my soul have not yet fully merged and it'll take some time to get fully accustomed."

This the Shadow Queen talking about Peach's body, not her full power. Since you prefer to lie and not give full context, I will do it myself.

- "Yesss, too unfamiliar... let me assume my true form and show you real power..."

I am aware Matt that you cannot harm her prior, but since Bonetail is deemed stronger at this point, it scales.

They're not talking about destroying the world, but merely taking over the world.

- "The entrance to the Dark Palace is open. Stop them before they hurt Peach and destroy the world." I love ignoring evidence.

The Shadow Queen isn't universal because the only mention of universal scale is in a ******* game review and every usage of the term "world" in game refers to the planet.

I'd argue the term the universe was more correct since the next game implies at it.

- "Once again, the fate of the known universe rests on the rounded shoulders of a mute plumber."

The Amp in Galaxy is demonstrably not very high since Bowser burns himself on the Star Reactor when he touches it.

Hmm... hmm...

"This place is made of pure Origami Power. It strengthened him, so it could strengthen you too!"

This is something that should be made clear in the OP. Blaze presented this as if it was Base Mario fighting Base Olly when both were amped. Olly doesn't have the power to fold the fabric of reality on his own. Just like with TTYD where Mario needs to be amped to even hurt the Shadow Queen.

Oh boy, I love it when I argue with someone who has not played the game. Matt. This was base Mario. Notice how Bowser was turned into an origami to fight? Mario never got this. Stop being dishonest.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It doesn't even look like they were hit with it, that's my issue. IT's more like the collapse of the Sammer Kingdom sent them into another dimension, rather than them being hit with the full force.

The navi rip-off and Peach talk about how they're going to die to it and then we see them all knocked out with Navi rip-off saying they feel discombobulated.

 

[Hunterzillas]

I doubt if this contributes at all, but I seem to recall an old upgrade thread awhile back where the size of the world paintings was called into question, and whether or not the paintings were in fact connected worlds.

I'll do some digging up to see if I find anything on that.

 

[Antvasima]

I'll go through everything step by step when I can; but the OP has a combination of stuff that are solid and others that are way out of context.

Thank you for helping out Medeus. You are awesome.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Who said the Shadow Queen needed it, Grodus was the one using them. The reason for scaling is due to her literally being able to take hits from it, plus we allow creating artifact scaling to your creation. Damn, I didn't know you can create a bomb out of thin air, if so, yeah you are 9-A. Anyways, Shadow Queen surviving it and fighting others like Grubba who use a Crystal Star supports it.

The game did. The script says: "The demon also made the 7 Star Stones which helped it control the world". That the Shadow Queen is weaker than the Crystal Stars is very apparent as she cannot fight off their power sealing her.

Damn, I didn't know you can create a bomb out of thin air, if so, yeah you are 9-A

Proof she created it instantly with no effort rather than something that took time and a lot of her magic.

Why would it not be on a universal scale? Why would the fabric of reality only be planetary?

Because "fabric of reality" only means he is folding space-time, not space time across universal scale. IT's not downplay, it's being quite reasonable with what is being shown to us. Olly doesn't show anything on an universal scale in the game, all of the folding is happening on the world, the game never goes into space and Olly never folds any star or planet or whatever.

The usage of "world" here is obviously referring to the fact that Olly will end the world as it currently is and make everything origami instead of paper.

Because it uses other magic-like attacks to harm Wario, unless the thread is concluded, I don't want to hear it. No reason why we cannot scale.

You din't provide a single reason. Why would its offensive magic scale to its capability to attack people.

And you cannot tell me what you want or want not to hear, I am giving my input and this is unjustifiable for any scaling.

Changing a dream into a nightmare is quite literally an ap feat indeed. Completely turning a dream and changing all of it into a nightmare is Low 2-C, Wart is unrelated because I had nothing to show what his spell did/he sustained something. Antasma's is outright shown.

No, turning a dream into a nightmare is Dream Manipulation Hax and not AP. You cannot say it is otherwise without evidence. What is the reason for changing a dream scaling to attacks. Can you prove that they are comparable?

- "Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc.

This is irrelevant to my point, affecting a dream world and changing it into a nightmare isn't AP, you just proved he has Dream Hax, well done.

As for one and two...

1. No, it doesn't. Changing a dream into a nightmare is unrelated to the strength or your arms or your wings or your beak for that matter, how hard you can attack physically is 100% unrelated to hax.

2. So he has no durability feat to prove it scales, got it.

That would imply Rosalina's shield wouldn't do shit, because then there would be two Mario's and Rosalina's by your own logic. So yes, Bowser surviving it does not mean there will be two Bowser's. Also surface area doesn't work on resetting a universe, especially when it was the fabric of the universe. Destroying all of time would not let you have varying power in your destruction my guy.

The collapse formed a black hole which destroyed the universe, we see it on screen. The Mario Cast was saved by Rosalina so they survived. Meanwhile everything else in the universe returned to normal.

Bowser doesn't have universal durability based on this feat because it is the same as arguing every single particle and atom in the entire Mario Universe is universal, as they also "survived it". Bowser was reset alongside the rest of the universe.

Okay, and how is that a refute, what the ****? Being harmed by the source of power means... you can't scale? The burn itself doesn't even defeat Bowser, he can be burnt by it as much as he wants, only Mario hitting Bowser will actually count as a hit. To make a claim that someone will not scale to an item's full power is bullshit without ANY type of evidence. Prove that it only applies to part of their power, because that's a bigger assumption than how it usually goes.

because it shows Bowser cannot tank the source of his power and is vulnerable to it. The buff is tiny as he is still harmed by the Star Reactor and you need to stun Bowser like that to wound him.

It shows very clearly that the Grand Star "Amp" as you put it is tiny and that Bowser doesn't scale to its power. It's not an assumption it is shown.

- "Everything we write is based on our own opinions. Information we use comes from the companies, or is correct to our knowledge. News, previews and release dates are based on the informaton we found to be true at the time of going to press."

Make an actual CRT denying other sources, because we clearly allow guides and manuals as actual in-game lore, it's accepted and on profiles. You'd have to prove that the American sources contradict the original source, which the claim you make with no evidence. Again, revise the allowance on guides and such, because we already allow these sources. This is still not Matt Wiki, you are not picking the rules.

This is unrelated. It was decided in another thread that it wasn't accept and thus here it's not accepted either. You cannot ignore past decisions and just do whatever you want. Either you use Japanese Sources or you don't. We don't accept Third Party sources made by people completely unrelated. Nobody cares about Nintendo Power.

1. Because guess what, they created the Pixls via magic.

2. Nothing implies it was overtime, especially when they made many different worlds, such as Flipside which was also stated. I'm not even sure why taking time to create a different universe that has its own time is 3-B, that makes little sense.

Technology is referring to the Pixls, which we already discussed. They're still stated to have created dimensions without the Pixls here.

Every single argument in these posts has glaring issues.

1. Creating something via magic isn't AP. The process is unknown and may not scale whatsoever specially if it took time.

2. Nothing implies anything it's a single line, there's no context to argue about nothing. Creating a universe over time is 3-B even if the universe has time

3. Your reading comprehension is abysmal, first they state that the Ancient used the Pixls to create dimensions and then they say that they created another dimension. That doesn't mean they created that dimension on their own when the process (using the Pixls) is already established.

The Ancients' ability to create dimensions is unquantifiable in relation to AP and only scales to their capacity as a civilization for non-offensive means.

I am aware Matt that you cannot harm her prior, but since Bonetail is deemed stronger at this point, it scales.

This is irrelevant because the Shadow Queen isn't universal.

- "The entrance to the Dark Palace is open. Stop them before they hurt Peach and destroy the world." I love ignoring evidence.

I saw this quote and talked about it in my post, you're the one ignoring things now. Destroying the world merely refers to the planet this is abundantly clear.

I'd argue the term the universe was more correct since the next game implies at it.

- "Once again, the fate of the known universe rests on the rounded shoulders of a mute plumber."

Non-sequitur. Super Paper Mario and TTYD have unrelated story. The term universe is only used in a review and not in the actual game, the fact that they bring up that the universe is threatened in the next game which does have solid evidence for universe destruction is unrelated to the Shadow Queen covering the world in darkness which we see in game.

Oh boy, I love it when I argue with someone who has not played the game. Matt. This was base Mario. Notice how Bowser was turned into an origami to fight? Mario never got this. Stop being dishonest.

I'm not being dishonest, you're the one omitting context from everything you say.

This upgrade will not be accepted, cannot be accepted, because there are glaring issues with every single thing you said in your OP and unless you're able to address my concerns (You haven't) it will be rejected.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Explosions are never Low 2-C as far as I am aware. A Low 2-C type of Big Bang is an existence-creating spacetime expansion.

What?
Since when was it a rules explosions can't be Low 2-C, the whole argument was never that the explosion wasn't Low 2-C but that surface area according to Matt would less it from being Low 2-C which is false

 

[Antvasima]

We have followed this convention for several years regarding Big Bangs. If they are treated as explosions, they are purely physical events.

 

[Udlmaster]

Then you didn't use the full power you limited the output to have it not run out.

Not really, Full Power just means you're putting your maximum Output. Your Output can be smaller than your Energy source.

Like If I have a 5w battery, and I have a 1w Light bulb, at 1w that would be it's "Full power", Maximum Output.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not really, Full Power just means you're putting your maximum Output. Your Output can be smaller than your Energy source.

Like If I have a 5w battery, and I have a 1w Light bulb, at 1w that would be it's "Full power", Maximum Output.

Except the Grand Star can't create or recreate the universe indefinitely. It was going to be used once and that was it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We have followed this convention for several years regarding Big Bangs. If they are treated as explosions, they are purely physical events.

I don’t recall this at all, not that this matters here because what explosion Big Bang happened here?

 

[Tllmbrg]

We have followed this convention for several years regarding Big Bangs. If they are treated as explosions, they are purely physical events.

But nobody is contesting the explosion being Low 2-C, even Matt isn't unless I missed something

 

[Antvasima]

Cal:

Well, in all threads where explosion Big Bangs have been mentioned for the last 6 years, I have responded that they are possible to measure in finite amounts of energy, and as such 3-A.

However, if this is not a Big Bang situation, I may have misunderstood.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Look, I don’t know what’s so hard to be contested. There’s Rosalina surviving several universal resets (its apparent that the one at the end of SMG wasn’t her first rodeo), there’s Black Jewel sustaining its parallel universe (something that’s Low 2-C for any other verse with this exact justification so don’t give me that debunk) and Wario surviving its collapse, and Paper Mario, Paper Bowser, Tippi, and Paper Peach surviving the collapse of Sammer’s Kingdom (something that killed literally everything else in that universe so don’t give me that “they were sent to another universe” argument).

 

[Udlmaster]

Except the Grand Star can't create or recreate the universe indefinitely. It was going to be used once and that was it.

Does it say that it can only be used once, or that it only had to be used once?

Because those are two different statements, to use them in a sentence: "I can only use this barrel of oil once." and the other: "I only have to shoot you once."

One shows the duration of the object, the other just shows the object can be used but gives no specific limiter to how many times it can be used.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cal:

Well, in all threads where explosion Big Bangs have been mentioned for the last 6 years, I have responded that they are possible to measure in finite amounts of energy, and as such 3-A.

However, if this is not a Big Bang situation, I may have misunderstood.

It’s a Big Bang, just not an explosion. A universal black hole collapses and causes a Big Bang.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It’s a Big Bang, just not an explosion. A universal black hole collapses and causes a Big Bang.

Which is irrelevant because:

1. It was lethal to the Mario Cast and Rosalina shields them.

2. Bowser doesn't tank it he just gets reset like the rest of the universe. Unless you think every atom in the Mario Universe has universal durability it's not a feat.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You’re strawmanning...
Yes. Rosalina protects them. And Rosalina survives it. And Bowser can harm Rosalina. Therefore he scales. I wasn’t arguing for Mario’s survival, nor was I arguing for Peach’s, or even Bowser’s. Rosalina is the one that takes a universe resetting on her face like it’s nothing.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

I was gone for a few hours and this thread turned into a disaster

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes. Rosalina protects them. And Rosalina survives it. And Bowser can harm Rosalina. Therefore he scales. I wasn’t arguing for Mario’s survival, nor was I arguing for Peach’s, or even Bowser’s. Rosalina is the one that takes a universe resetting on her face like it’s nothing.

Rosalina's durability is unrelated to her magic and Bowser can damage her in a completely different game.

Also we don't see her "tank it" she might have shielded herself as well.

 

[Starsprite53]

Bowser can damage her in a completely different game.

Such a good refute

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What does her magic have to do with this? This is a feat of raw durability, not magical prowess. Not to mention there’s no proof that she used shields to tank it, and I don’t have to prove a negative. The only people we know she shielded were Mario and Peach, and we don’t know what happened the previous times she’s survived universal resets.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What does her magic have to do with this? This is a feat of raw durability, not magical prowess. Not to mention there’s no proof that she used shields to tank it, and I don’t have to prove a negative. The only people we know she shielded were Mario and Peach, and we don’t know what happened the previous times she’s survived universal resets.

Prove that she tanked it. The scene isn't even shown, it just cuts to white and then Mario and crew wake up under the tree.

You can't say anything about a feat you don't see.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It's stated she shielded Mario/Peach but do we know if she shielded herself?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's stated she shielded Mario/Peach but do we know if she shielded herself?

We don't know and we don't see how it happened, that's my point.

 

[Armorchompy]

Logically, if a character can be hurt and is arguably weaker than people she needs to shield from an attack, she also would use those shields to protect herself.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Prove that she tanked it. The scene isn't even shown, it just cuts to white and then Mario and crew wake up under the tree.

You can't say anything about a feat you don't see.

Prove she didn't?
He doesn't need to prove a negative lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Prove she didn't?
He doesn't need to prove a negative lol

He can't prove a positive either, just that she survived.

Which is just how the question mark.

I don't think the cast scales to Rosalina either her appearance in 3D World isn't even part of that game's canon story.

 

[Tllmbrg]

He can't prove a positive either, just that she survived.

Which is just how the question mark.

I mean wouldn't we assume the simplest solution then, which is her tanking it then?

I don't think the cast scales to Rosalina either her appearance in 3D World isn't even part of that game's canon story.

Why isn't it canon?

 

[Starsprite53]

He can't prove a positive either, just that she survived.

Which is just how the question mark.

I don't think the cast scales to Rosalina either her appearance in 3D World isn't even part of that game's canon story.

In fact,after defeating bowser(post game) and return to world 1 the fairies build a rocket to go to outerspace then you unlock rosalina,idk how this isn't canon

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why isn't it canon?

She's an unlockable character that's not part of the story and isn't in the opening or ending cutscenes.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Honestly in hindsight her shielding herself is the most logical assumption, but why wouldn't her forcefields scale to her other applications of magic?

 

[Armorchompy]

Even if she was canon, is there anything she can get hurt by that wouldn't fall under the "random enemies don't scale to who they hurt" rule?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Can't the post game where you can use her be canon?
If not then why not?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Honestly in hindsight her shielding herself is the most logical assumption, but why wouldn't her forcefields scale to her other applications of magic?

I'm fine with Low 2-C Rosalina I'm not fine with people scaling Mario and Peach to her.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Even if she was canon, is there anything she can get hurt by that wouldn't fall under the "random enemies don't scale to who they hurt" rule?

Nope, Rosalina is just a character in the game that can be hurt by every Goomba and every Thwomp. She has a hitbox and plays like the other characters.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Nope, Rosalina is just a character in the game that can be hurt by every Goomba and every Thwomp. She has a hitbox and plays like the other characters.

Yes?
Because she's a video game character in a platform that you can play, what's your arguments here lol?

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly I'm not sold on Low 2-C Rosa either, is the only feat she's got tanking/shielding the destruction of the universe? Cause even if her magic scaled to itself, just because she can reach Low 2-C dura with her shields doesn't mean she can reach Low 2-C AP with offensive magic.