Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

[InfiniteDay]

Well, let's get back on topic because that is in the past. What are we going to do about the 6 Low 2-C feats which are still considered viable?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well, let's get back on topic because that is in the past. What are we going to do about the 6 Low 2-C feats which are still considered viable?

Which are not?

 

[Hunterzillas]

Well, let's get back on topic because that is in the past. What are we going to do about the 6 Low 2-C feats which are still considered viable?

Probably dissect them as well, see their validity and consistency.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Has every feat not been discussed?

 

[Ari64-SP]

Has every feat not been discussed?

Well let’s have an overview

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have already gone over all the feats multiple times, insulting me won't do you any good.

 

[Ari64-SP]

I have already gone over all the feats multiple times, insulting me won't do you any good.

Uhh pardon? You “went over them” in a way that was debunked numerous times. Also who insulted you this time? I said you did a bad job arguing any points.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Uhh pardon? You “went over them” in a way that was debunked numerous times. Also who insulted you this time? I said you did a bad job arguing any points.

I replied to every "debunk". They weren't solid and just lead back to the original post.

I think you have a bad job arguing points but that statement is meaningless and only serves to attack the person.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I have already gone over all the feats multiple times, insulting me won't do you any good.

I did not insult you, its that most of your arguments are not what most people think is correct. Now lets go over each one, one by one. When we reach a consensus we go to the next: Starting first is Super Mario 64, what are the arguments for both sides?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Oh god this is actually going in circles now

I don't think we'll achieve anything out of this mess. This thread should be closed and one with only 1 topic being talked about should be made, like most bosses in the Galaxy games not scaling to their power source, we can deal with that, then have no one brings it up again and we then move on to other topic. That would be organized. A Varies up to Low 2-C is no going to happen out of dishonest tactics, it's not a natural conclusion, just people asking what they want to see.

I agree with this tbh.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I did not insult you, its that most of your arguments are not what most people think is correct. Now lets go over each one, one by one. When we reach a consensus we go to the next: Starting first is Super Mario 64, what are the arguments for both sides?

You have been more respectful than most.

 

[00potato]

This is too much of a mess, I doubt anyone here, staff included actually know what happened here.

So remake it, just allow all the Mario Supporters (its their thread.), Cal, Shcroder, and a few other staff like Data. Just like the Roshi thread.

Argue it point by point, so no confusion can be had.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In hindsight I don't think the staff are gonna have the time and energy for 7 more threads like this...

That's the plan, it's transparent. It's to win through attrition regardless of arguments. Anyone with a brain can see it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This was literally what this thread was about. Like half this thread could be deleted without any major arguments being lost.

@Eficiente You said you were going to delete derailing posts.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What about just discuss feats? Just bring them up and discuss? More useful then throwing out insults and conspiracy theories.

I would prefer this. Again, I'd be deleting all the insulting / derailing posts if I could and I'm sure the thread would lose like 4 pages.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We aren't really limited by the amount of posts, let's just continue.

This.

And also delete the derailing posts.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

If we really want to continue on this thread, can we at least talk about them one by one instead of just all at once? It makes this discussion far less tedious and allows us to go somewhere, finally.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

If we really want to continue on this thread, can we at least talk about them one by one instead of just all at once? It makes this discussion far less tedious and allows us to go somewhere, finally.

Sounds good

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree

 

[Ari64-SP]

If we really want to continue on this thread, can we at least talk about them one by one instead of just all at once? It makes this discussion far less tedious and allows us to go somewhere, finally.

^this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was asked to step in again, but I still have a feeling to say this. I've always been neutral on the Low 2-C stuff; I was open for options such as Low 2-C only applying to 7 Star Children and Rosalina being option one. Or a variable tier between Tier 4 and Tier 2. Or Tier 2 being outliers. I'm not proposing any circular scalings to actually go through; however, all I was asking is the fact that Base Mario taking out an amplified Bowser happens a lot more often than people want to admit; 3 instances of him besting Bowser when amped by a Low 2-C Power Up. One Instance of Mario and Luigi besting Bowser amped by a 2-B power up.
And multiple Unknown power up boosts being bested by Mario.

And even Mario Vs Base Bowser has other things; Mario taking out bowser with fireballs doesn't downplay Mario's strength; Fireflowers don't amp physical strength the same way Power Stars, Invincibility Stars, or Mega Mushrooms do. All it does it grant him the ability to shoot fireballs that are arguably no stronger than his punches. Against most bosses, fireballs do much less damage than typical jumping or punching. In Mario 3, Mario can outright oneshot Bowser with just a single hammer. In Super Mario World, It is possible to hurt Bowser just by jumping on him; and also, throwing Bowser Bots at him wouldn't downplay Mario's strength. It is still the force of Mario chucking the objects at Bowser that holds most of the impact not the object he throws. If a character harms are character with planet level durability via throwing a normal rock at them, the logical assumption is the thrower is strong, not that the rock is some random Adamantium rock that happens to be abnormally sharp. And even outside of Bowser, Mario also bested King Kaliante and Gobblegut who are also amped by a Low 2-C power up. As for Grand Stars, 1 Grand Star has more than enough lore to be Low 2-C outright, and they can amp physical stats to be on par with any sort of Magical Powers such as the ability to nuke entire galaxies.

But that being said, Bowser is typically Mario's physical superior. And actually I need to go back because no one is actually getting the definition of "Loose canon" correctly. This is something the con side either keeps misinterpreting (Debatable wither intentional or not). A Loose canon is what Popeye has. A Loose canon means each and every episode or chapter of something is indeed canon given the countless amounts of overlapping. But they're completely out of order, all over the place, and the time gaps are unknown. We have some games known to take place after others, and we also see Super Mario Games And Spinoffs overlapping events. Saying that, "Oh there's just a different parallel event from Paper Mario canon to Superstar Saga, not that Paper Mario is canon" is pure headcanon. And also, saying "Mario is a mascot, not a character" is a pet peeve. Yes he is a mascot, but he's more than that. He actually does have a canon albeit a very nonlinear one much like Popeye. And Miyamoto was contextually comparing him to Legend of Zelda. He acknowledged that Link is many characters consisting of ancestors and descendants where as Mario is just one guy where a lot of things happen all in like one day and the like. Even Dino keeps telling you stop regressing that topic back to square one. And anyway, making a bunch of keys for many different canons would only create more problems + excuses to create even more loopholes such as Mario having 10 or more keys and a multitude of them are Tier 2

Anyway, given the staff majority seem strictly against Tier 2; except for Cal and Gyro with me wanting to stay neutral. I'm afraid Tier 2 won't be accepted for base keys any time soon. But the problem shouldn't be about "Loose canons" and stuff like that. The issue is about the existence of Outliers, the fact that Mario was confirmed to have a Plot armor in the end of Mario Galaxy 2, the fact that Mario as a whole is heavily inconsistent. Mario is the type of characters who's best left using some mid-balling much like how other superhero characters are.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

There weren't even that many staff members replying here

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I was asked to step in again, but I still have a feeling to say this. I've always been neutral on the Low 2-C stuff; I was open for options such as Low 2-C only applying to 7 Star Children and Rosalina being option one. Or a variable tier between Tier 4 and Tier 2. Or Tier 2 being outliers. I'm not proposing any circular scalings to actually go through; however, all I was asking is the fact that Base Mario taking out an amplified Bowser happens a lot more often than people want to admit; 3 instances of him besting Bowser when amped by a Low 2-C Power Up. One Instance of Mario and Luigi besting Bowser amped by a 2-B power up.
And multiple Unknown power up boosts being bested by Mario.

And even Mario Vs Base Bowser has other things; Mario taking out bowser with fireballs doesn't downplay Mario's strength; Fireflowers don't amp physical strength the same way Power Stars, Invincibility Stars, or Mega Mushrooms do. All it does it grant him the ability to shoot fireballs that are arguably no stronger than his punches. Against most bosses, fireballs do much less damage than typical jumping or punching. In Mario 3, Mario can outright oneshot Bowser with just a single hammer. In Super Mario World, It is possible to hurt Bowser just by jumping on him; and also, throwing Bowser Bots at him wouldn't downplay Mario's strength. It is still the force of Mario chucking the objects at Bowser that holds most of the impact not the object he throws. If a character harms are character with planet level durability via throwing a normal rock at them, the logical assumption is the thrower is strong, not that the rock is some random Adamantium rock that happens to be abnormally sharp. And even outside of Bowser, Mario also bested King Kaliante and Gobblegut who are also amped by a Low 2-C power up. As for Grand Stars, 1 Grand Star has more than enough lore to be Low 2-C outright, and they can amp physical stats to be on par with any sort of Magical Powers such as the ability to nuke entire galaxies.

But that being said, Bowser is typically Mario's physical superior. And actually I need to go back because no one is actually getting the definition of "Loose canon" correctly. This is something the con side either keeps misinterpreting (Debatable wither intentional or not). A Loose canon is what Popeye has. A Loose canon means each and every episode or chapter of something is indeed canon given the countless amounts of overlapping. But they're completely out of order, all over the place, and the time gaps are unknown. We have some games known to take place after others, and we also see Super Mario Games And Spinoffs overlapping events. Saying that, "Oh there's just a different parallel event from Paper Mario canon to Superstar Saga, not that Paper Mario is canon" is pure headcanon. And also, saying "Mario is a mascot, not a character" is a pet peeve. Yes he is a mascot, but he's more than that. He actually does have a canon albeit a very nonlinear one much like Popeye. And Miyamoto was contextually comparing him to Legend of Zelda. He acknowledged that Link is many characters consisting of ancestors and descendants where as Mario is just one guy where a lot of things happen all in like one day and the like. Even Dino keeps telling you stop regressing that topic back to square one. And anyway, making a bunch of keys for many different canons would only create more problems + excuses to create even more loopholes such as Mario having 10 or more keys and a multitude of them are Tier 2

Anyway, given the staff majority seem strictly against Tier 2; except for Cal and Gyro with me wanting to stay neutral. I'm afraid Tier 2 won't be accepted for base keys any time soon. But the problem shouldn't be about "Loose canons" and stuff like that. The issue is about the existence of Outliers, the fact that Mario was confirmed to have a Plot armor in the end of Mario Galaxy 2, the fact that Mario as a whole is heavily inconsistent. Mario is the type of characters who's best left using some mid-balling much like how other superhero characters are.

Also, Matt debunked like one feat, 64 paintings. The rest weren't.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I was asked to step in again, but I still have a feeling to say this. I've always been neutral on the Low 2-C stuff; I was open for options such as Low 2-C only applying to 7 Star Children and Rosalina being option one. Or a variable tier between Tier 4 and Tier 2. Or Tier 2 being outliers. I'm not proposing any circular scalings to actually go through; however, all I was asking is the fact that Base Mario taking out an amplified Bowser happens a lot more often than people want to admit; 3 instances of him besting Bowser when amped by a Low 2-C Power Up. One Instance of Mario and Luigi besting Bowser amped by a 2-B power up.
And multiple Unknown power up boosts being bested by Mario.

And even Mario Vs Base Bowser has other things; Mario taking out bowser with fireballs doesn't downplay Mario's strength; Fireflowers don't amp physical strength the same way Power Stars, Invincibility Stars, or Mega Mushrooms do. All it does it grant him the ability to shoot fireballs that are arguably no stronger than his punches. Against most bosses, fireballs do much less damage than typical jumping or punching. In Mario 3, Mario can outright oneshot Bowser with just a single hammer. In Super Mario World, It is possible to hurt Bowser just by jumping on him; and also, throwing Bowser Bots at him wouldn't downplay Mario's strength. It is still the force of Mario chucking the objects at Bowser that holds most of the impact not the object he throws. If a character harms are character with planet level durability via throwing a normal rock at them, the logical assumption is the thrower is strong, not that the rock is some random Adamantium rock that happens to be abnormally sharp. And even outside of Bowser, Mario also bested King Kaliante and Gobblegut who are also amped by a Low 2-C power up. As for Grand Stars, 1 Grand Star has more than enough lore to be Low 2-C outright, and they can amp physical stats to be on par with any sort of Magical Powers such as the ability to nuke entire galaxies.

But that being said, Bowser is typically Mario's physical superior. And actually I need to go back because no one is actually getting the definition of "Loose canon" correctly. This is something the con side either keeps misinterpreting (Debatable wither intentional or not). A Loose canon is what Popeye has. A Loose canon means each and every episode or chapter of something is indeed canon given the countless amounts of overlapping. But they're completely out of order, all over the place, and the time gaps are unknown. We have some games known to take place after others, and we also see Super Mario Games And Spinoffs overlapping events. Saying that, "Oh there's just a different parallel event from Paper Mario canon to Superstar Saga, not that Paper Mario is canon" is pure headcanon. And also, saying "Mario is a mascot, not a character" is a pet peeve. Yes he is a mascot, but he's more than that. He actually does have a canon albeit a very nonlinear one much like Popeye. And Miyamoto was contextually comparing him to Legend of Zelda. He acknowledged that Link is many characters consisting of ancestors and descendants where as Mario is just one guy where a lot of things happen all in like one day and the like. Even Dino keeps telling you stop regressing that topic back to square one. And anyway, making a bunch of keys for many different canons would only create more problems + excuses to create even more loopholes such as Mario having 10 or more keys and a multitude of them are Tier 2

Anyway, given the staff majority seem strictly against Tier 2; except for Cal and Gyro with me wanting to stay neutral. I'm afraid Tier 2 won't be accepted for base keys any time soon. But the problem shouldn't be about "Loose canons" and stuff like that. The issue is about the existence of Outliers, the fact that Mario was confirmed to have a Plot armor in the end of Mario Galaxy 2, the fact that Mario as a whole is heavily inconsistent. Mario is the type of characters who's best left using some mid-balling much like how other superhero characters are.

Over 8 feats ain't an outlier

 

[liluzivert]

It would be flat out unfair to ignore most of these feats when barely any of them have been debunked yet. Idk why we can’t settle on a 4-A possibly low 2-C here, or hell even the complete separate keys thing y’all was talking about.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Mario's power fluctuates, so why don't we just add a "varies from 4-A, to at most Low 2-C" or something? The Low 2-C feats from Galaxy are there, (and some other questionable examples too I guess, there is also Base Mario and Luigi beating Dream Bowser, but thats obviously an outlier). But this is obviously the peak of the Base Mario Bros

Without reading the rest of the thread yet, I think this is a really good solution.

That, or separate keys for each type of game. 2d,3D,rpgs,spin-offs

And personally I lean even more to this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, Matt debunked like one feat, 64 paintings. The rest weren't.

Shadow Queen isn't Low 2-C. This is objective.

Olly has no evidence beyond a single line and isn't Low 2-C.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Without reading the rest of the thread yet, I think this is a really good solution.

And personally I lean even more to this.

No need to separate it just because

 

[Hunterzillas]

There weren't even that many staff members replying here

I mean we got Matthew himself, Ant, AKM, Dino, Efi, Weekly was here awhile ago, DDM, and I'm not sure if Cal himself is staff but I think he is.

Some may not have been really active, but they've been here and said their peace and then some.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Different timezones and busy people means that people won't realistically reply every 10 minutes.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I tallied up all the votes (god this was painful)

Agree: Rtxthegamer, Starsprite53, PlozAlcachaz, Lord_JJJ, Bruhtelho, ShadowGamerOmega, NotAMarioFan(lol), Adem_Warlock69, Tllmbrg, Ican’tthinkof1goodname, ZeroTC01, Smashssf2, InfiniteDay, ShrekAnakin, Da_Lunge_Fish, The_real_cal_howard, GiverOfThePeace, liluzivert, MikeBro25, Aria64_SP (I think), TheRexor28, 00potato (I think), GyroNutz, DarkDragonMedeus (I think??), AshenCrow777, JJSliderman, GoCommitDi,

Leaning Towards Agree: Sadistic_Sleuth,

Neutral: Milly_Rocking_Bandit, Moxxaccinocapuccino, Antvasima, SamanPlatou (Agrees with a “varies” tier),

Leaning Towards Disagree:

Disagree: Matthew_Schroeder, Armorchompy, Ryukama, WeeklyBattles, I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die (I think), Dino_Ranger_Black, Eficiente, Dino_Ranger_Black, AKM Sama

I didn't bother taking into account who made, or didn't make arguments.

Damn, completely ignored c': ovo

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's the plan, it's transparent. It's to win through attrition regardless of arguments. Anyone with a brain can see it.

And yet you expect things to be peaceful...

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Have the paintings been fully decided against yet? They were the first things in the OP.

 

[Starsprite53]

Not really i assume

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

No need to separate it just because

It's not "just because". It's in aknowledgement that Mario can in fact vary in power level from game to game, which anyone who has played the games should know to be true. In fact, the enormous difference in power can be seen when comparing 2d to 3d.

That said,

I was asked to step in again, but I still have a feeling to say this. I've always been neutral on the Low 2-C stuff; I was open for options such as Low 2-C only applying to 7 Star Children and Rosalina being option one. Or a variable tier between Tier 4 and Tier 2. Or Tier 2 being outliers. I'm not proposing any circular scalings to actually go through; however, all I was asking is the fact that Base Mario taking out an amplified Bowser happens a lot more often than people want to admit; 3 instances of him besting Bowser when amped by a Low 2-C Power Up. One Instance of Mario and Luigi besting Bowser amped by a 2-B power up.
And multiple Unknown power up boosts being bested by Mario.

And even Mario Vs Base Bowser has other things; Mario taking out bowser with fireballs doesn't downplay Mario's strength; Fireflowers don't amp physical strength the same way Power Stars, Invincibility Stars, or Mega Mushrooms do. All it does it grant him the ability to shoot fireballs that are arguably no stronger than his punches. Against most bosses, fireballs do much less damage than typical jumping or punching. In Mario 3, Mario can outright oneshot Bowser with just a single hammer. In Super Mario World, It is possible to hurt Bowser just by jumping on him; and also, throwing Bowser Bots at him wouldn't downplay Mario's strength. It is still the force of Mario chucking the objects at Bowser that holds most of the impact not the object he throws. If a character harms are character with planet level durability via throwing a normal rock at them, the logical assumption is the thrower is strong, not that the rock is some random Adamantium rock that happens to be abnormally sharp. And even outside of Bowser, Mario also bested King Kaliante and Gobblegut who are also amped by a Low 2-C power up. As for Grand Stars, 1 Grand Star has more than enough lore to be Low 2-C outright, and they can amp physical stats to be on par with any sort of Magical Powers such as the ability to nuke entire galaxies.

But that being said, Bowser is typically Mario's physical superior. And actually I need to go back because no one is actually getting the definition of "Loose canon" correctly. This is something the con side either keeps misinterpreting (Debatable wither intentional or not). A Loose canon is what Popeye has. A Loose canon means each and every episode or chapter of something is indeed canon given the countless amounts of overlapping. But they're completely out of order, all over the place, and the time gaps are unknown. We have some games known to take place after others, and we also see Super Mario Games And Spinoffs overlapping events. Saying that, "Oh there's just a different parallel event from Paper Mario canon to Superstar Saga, not that Paper Mario is canon" is pure headcanon. And also, saying "Mario is a mascot, not a character" is a pet peeve. Yes he is a mascot, but he's more than that. He actually does have a canon albeit a very nonlinear one much like Popeye. And Miyamoto was contextually comparing him to Legend of Zelda. He acknowledged that Link is many characters consisting of ancestors and descendants where as Mario is just one guy where a lot of things happen all in like one day and the like. Even Dino keeps telling you stop regressing that topic back to square one. And anyway, making a bunch of keys for many different canons would only create more problems + excuses to create even more loopholes such as Mario having 10 or more keys and a multitude of them are Tier 2

Anyway, given the staff majority seem strictly against Tier 2; except for Cal and Gyro with me wanting to stay neutral. I'm afraid Tier 2 won't be accepted for base keys any time soon. But the problem shouldn't be about "Loose canons" and stuff like that. The issue is about the existence of Outliers, the fact that Mario was confirmed to have a Plot armor in the end of Mario Galaxy 2, the fact that Mario as a whole is heavily inconsistent. Mario is the type of characters who's best left using some mid-balling much like how other superhero characters are.

I agree with this.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Ii thought 2021 was supposed to be sweet not bitter

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew, you really need to make and effort to stop being confrontational during very tense situations. Staff are supposed to run damage control and calm things down, not make things worse.

Anyway, I would still appreciate feedback from all of the other staff members who have responded to this thread regarding my suggested variable tier compromise solution. It makes perfect sense to me at least.

 

[Antvasima]

Ii thought 2021 was supposed to be sweet not bitter

Well, at least you are always making an effort to be nice.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Matthew, you really need to make and effort to stop being confrontational during very tense situations. Staff are supposed to run damage control and calm things down, not make things worse.

I was trying to not make things worse, though I apologize if I came off as disrespectful.

Notamariofan is a really cool dude by the way.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

If Tier 2 was rejected outright is there a point to the variable tier, or will it be something like “Varies, __ to 4-A”