Lovecraftian entities in the nasuverse and their usage for powerlevel scaling

[Embracetophats]

With the Foreigner class confirming the existence of lovecraftian gods in the nasuverse and the verse's admission that lovecraftian stories were extremely accurate in regards to pretty much everything to a T on these entities (as well as character materials saying that True Demons are undistinguishable from Lovecraftian gods already back in 2010), how should we go about scalings for this?

 

[Promestein]

They have to show feats.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

We do nothing because Kiara who was almost a True Demon is only 5-A.

 

[Embracetophats]

We do nothing because Kiara who was almost a True Demon is only 5-A.

and in regards to you having yog-sothoth in the Salem chapter (albeit by a different name)?

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Still nothing because none of Lovecraft's cosmology applies when the best feat of a almost True Demon is only 5-A.

 

[Promestein]

Just because Yog-Sothoth appears doesn't mean that it's the exact same as Yog-Sothoth from the Mythos.

 

[Embracetophats]

Just because Yog-Sothoth appears doesn't mean that it's the exact same as Yog-Sothoth from the Mythos.

it is reffered in the exact same terms as Yog-Sothoth though "It's a great god that is both the Gate and the Key. There are six Gates. Up, Bottom, Left, Right, Front and Back. It means all of space. And the god resides where light can never reach, outside of the universe, beyond the final gate. It might be called "Sut-Typhon", but in the Whateley's Book of Eibon, it's recorded as The All-in-One, the One-in-All (Õà¿Òü½ÒüùÒüªõ©ÇÒÇüõ©ÇÒü½ÒüùÒüªÕà¿Òü¬ÒéïÞÇà, ?).[1]"

Coincidentally, i resumed my lovecraftian reading diet the other day and have read anywhere from 30 to 50% of the Dunwitch Terror, which heavily deals with this particular deity and i can tell you that thus far everything about the descriptions match

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Which is still not enough to assume that they're equal. It just means Yog was portrayed faithfully.

 

[Embracetophats]

Which is still not enough to assume that they're equal. It just means Yog was portrayed faithfully.

fair enough, but if something is portrayed faithfully, it by itself implies that is is either equal or nearly equal in all relevant aspects of what it is portraying

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You can't just assume that an entity is equal to their original counterpart just because it has been portrayed in a faithful way, they would have to possess feats and statements on their own implying that they are anywhere near the original character

 

[Embracetophats]

actually, i was going to agree with you guys and leave it as it is, but something has made me put my foot down and this concerns the usage of higher dimensional entities in fiction in general.


so to begin with, you want to talk feats? ok, let us talk feats. show me a passage (written by lovecraft) that mentions any of the outer gods, be it Yog or Azathoth destroying a multiverse or a 1-A space. show me any mention of cosmic battles between the outer gods and their consequences. can't you do it? well then, that just validates my point. we currently give these entities a certain standing based on how they are described as how powerful an entity would be according to theoretical physics based on said descriptions, but there isnt a single outer god with actual feats. we give them the 1-A standing out of their descriptions and embelishments. we also do it for characters in other series all the time. we give characters certain levels of power based on rationalization, descriptions and scaling, not feats. for example, for the masadaverse, we assume a certain level of power for anyone with Taikyoku, no matter their standing (as long as it is above 0) despite most or at least some not having the actual feats to give them that standing. in the nasuverse, we give akasha the 1-C/ 1-A standing despite it having no feats and it only being a cosmological concept, so, to put it in capitals, WHAT ARE YOU ASKING FOR FEATS FOR AND PLAYING THE DOUBLE STANDARD?


finally, what i meant regarding Yog isnt that his description is accurate or that his modus operatis is accurate. it is way more than that. they literally go out of their way to say that real life/nasuverse Lovecraft described the NASUVERSE OUTER GODS/ lovecraftian outer gods in extremely accurate detail, in all levels, in his writings and that is the entity that is being summoned in Salem, taking advantage of lovecraft's lore. they are literally saying that, in all aspects, the descriptions, methods and level of power that you find about the Outer Gods in the lovecraftian books are the exact duplicate of the same Outer Gods that exist in the Nasuverse, despite them not having made an actual full body appearance in the nasuverse yet. in summary, they are saying that lovecraft lore outer gods = nasuverse outer gods in all aspect.


and it isnt even hard to summon or to bring yourself face to face to any of the gods in the top 3 spots in the mythos. rather, it is mind-blowingly easy. that is how we get the Dunwhich Horror spawn and things like a random witch asking if you want to have some 1 to 1 private time with azototh in his throne outside of reality.

 

[Dienomite22]

oh boy

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

If Lovecraft Outer Gods=Nasu Outer Gods then why are they equal to True Demons who are just at least 5-A via scaling to Kiara who was almost at their level? I feel like you are trolling.

 

[Embracetophats]

True Demons who are just at least 5-A via scaling to Kiara who was almost at their level?

at this point I feel you are the one trolling.


you do realize that Nasu has repeatedly in the fact mentioned cutting back on the visuals for CCC due to budget constraints, right? he even included a sketch of what he wanted BB's NP to be like, but had to cut it back due to constraints. and yet, you are using those constraints to divise a limitation for Kiara's power.


said Kiara absorbed BB, Melitith and Passionlip. Passionlip can destroy anything she wants via relying on her hax and is reffered to as the most offensively powerful alter ego, above kingprotea that, lorewise ranks way, way lower than kiara but is described via word of god to be a universal sized disaster.


and BB is above all alter egos and banished kingprotea. she was also incorporated into kiara via absorption before she even became close to a True Demon.


not to mention that this is you saying that the person that wrote Salem doesnt know what they are doing and Nasu didnt go over these things. lore keeps getting updated. none of the things i said are something you cant find in the translations/summaries of the chapter that are available. if you think i am making things up, go read them for yourself

 

[Embracetophats]

heck base Passionlip is stated to be the natural enemy of "universal threat" Kingprotea.

but yes, planet level tops...*cough* well documented budget constraints*cough*

 

[Embracetophats]

"In the planning stage of the game, the development team considered making the Noble Phantasm a homage to Dark Sakura. [1]CCC draft, illustrated by Arco Wada

1. Camera: Close up of BB followed by a rapid zoom out of the camera. The sky behind BB becomes black. BB, as if to welcome a man, spreads her arms wide and then melts into the darkness of the background.[2]
2. The camera is placed even farther away; the goal is not to show the characters, but to show the backdrop and scenery. The camera shows the ground which appears to be tilted diagonally. The tilted ground and horizon make the viewer feel uneasy. The camera is pulled far back, so the horizon can be seen more clearly. On the other side of the horizon is a phantasm of a giant BB (homage to Dark Sakura).[2]
3. The giant Black Sakura, with a bewitching laugh, then reaches out and scoops up the ground that Hakuno Kishinami is standing on. It looks as easy as if she just scooped out a bite of pudding.[2]
4. The giant phantasm closes her hand and crushes everything in her hand, Hakuno and all. This would be a homage to the scene in Fate/stay night where Dark Sakura crushes the insects of Zouken Matou.[2]

However, the cost to design and implement this Noble Phantasm and Dark Sakura from scratch was high enough that the budget was used elsewhere. Hence, it was axed. Like BB says, money isn't unlimited. In order to get the Servants all dressed up in their swimsuits, there had to be some cuts in other areas of the game.[2]"

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well,i guess this discussion is pointless,first you call an user here a trolling,second lovecraft god must show their feats,otherwise nope.

IMO if Kiara is classified as true demon and still weaker,i didn't surprise if outer gods are weaker than TYPE or else.

So,plz don't be too harsh here.

 

[Embracetophats]

if you want to argue based on visuals alone, you nerfing True demons based on limited visuals would make you no better than the trolls that wank Gilgamesh to galaxy to universe level because MUH VISUALS make it look like the guy is throwing a galaxy or something greater than that.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Whoa there,are you mad or else,plz don't be too harsh my friend.

 

[Embracetophats]

oh, no, my apologies. i didnt mean for it to come out as me being overly rude or harsh.


i merely believed his counter-argument came from a flawed basis and i was using certain language to drive home the points that make me believe said basis is flawed, which are video game visuals.

apologies if i managed to rub anyone the wrong way

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Otherwise you must polite here,the user that argued with you is more expert you know.

Control your word and language here,if you get too far someone will report you.

 

[Embracetophats]

"on that note, i always find it rather amusing when people assume Saver's limit is solar system level, when the materials refference that he has universe-scale power. the solar system just happens to be something he can easily take care of.


"The reason why this attack's power, visuals, and scale are so huge is because reincarnated Kiara is a being similar to Saver.
People who devote their life to bringing salvation to Sattvas (living things) are referred to as Bodhisattvas. People who have attained moksha (libertation/release) and become Buddhas are also Bodhisattvas. A Bodhisattva is a god of universe scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System.
Buddhism has a sense of scale of the universe that stands out from that of other religions. There are concepts like Nayuta (1060) and "The Infinitely Vast Number" (1068) which were created to represent the scale and size of a Buddha.
The entire universe is the domain of a Buddha. In Buddhism the universe in considered to be made up of three billion solar systems (a great trichiliocosm). A galaxy comprises of 3000 solar systems (a small trichiliocosm), and 1000 small trichiliocosms make up a trichiliocosm.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If the outer Gods of the Nasuverse share the statements of the original then by that standard they should be equal, perhaps it is the statement of them being equal to a far lesser being that is PIS and not the grand scale statements. Was it stated that the Outer Gods are equal to Kiara? Yog is explicitly stated he is omnipresent on a universal scale right?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Outlier. Close thread. ovo

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

So are we just never gonna make profiles for the entities then? Perhaps it is the Lovecraftian beings being compared to lower beings that is the outlier and not them being on a grand scale?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Dude... 'Twas a joke.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Oh, is that what ovo means? Got yeah

 

[Embracetophats]

If the outer Gods of the Nasuverse share the statements of the original then by that standard they should be equal, perhaps it is the statement of them being equal to a far lesser being that is PIS and not the grand scale statements. Was it stated that the Outer Gods are equal to Kiara? Yog is explicitly stated he is omnipresent on a universal scale right?

Kiara is comparable to a type of entity in the nasuverse we dont know much about called "true demons". what we do know of them is the author saying that they are indistinguishable in nature from the "evil gods" that were spoken of by HP lovecraft that are higher dimensional in nature.


that bit of lore is like 8 or so years old now and a lot of new lore has been crancked out since 2015.


besides, lore-wise, base form kiara already consumed and absorbed the powers of beings greater or superior to universal scale. "True Demon" Kiara is the result of her absorbing 3 of these beings and going through a transformation via conceptual manipulation from one ally that she has. what makes people put Kiara at 5-B is gameplay animations from a game that already complained about a lack of budget...yet this wiki still puts one of the FRAGMENTS of the beings that Kiara originally absorbed at the same rank of full power near True Demon Kiara...

 

[Embracetophats]

and besides, the point of this post isnt even to make any significant scaling to the nasuverse cast as a whole. it is just to say "yes, they exist in the nasuverse too and they are stated to share all the descriptions of them that real world lovecraft made for his books"

 

[Embracetophats]

Oh, is that what ovo means? Got yeah

i dont suppose this wiki has an emouji dictionary...

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Actually, on that topic. The Author did state that the Bodihisatva in the Nasuverse were Universal or atleast that they had universal reality warping. So perhaps the animation budget really is to blame, tho idk about that

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Oh lord.

I see massive walls of rant. What exactly is going on here? Does action need to be taken here?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Don't be worry,the OP apologies here.

 

[Embracetophats]

btw, Randolph Carter, which is Lovecraft's self-insert character that travels through all sort of bullshit and deals with Outer Gods also shows up in the Salem chapter and is at least mentioned by another foreigner class servant as having made contact with them.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Oh lord.

I see massive walls of rant. What exactly is going on here? Does action need to be taken here?

talking about the Outergods taken from the Mythos that share pretty much all the same statements. If there is PIS, then it is likely the low ends for the characters not the high ends.

And on a semi-related note, the author stated the Nasuverse Bodisatva are Universal or atleast have universal reality warping. And the possibility of Kiara being limited by the game's budget which prevents intended feats

 

[Embracetophats]

Otherwise you must polite here,the user that argued with you is more expert you know.

Control your word and language here,if you get too far someone will report you.

oddly enough i am only seeing these messages now. they did not previously show up, despite me regularly refreshing the page.


also, i wonder where these standards were the last time i was here, when blatant ad-hominem arguments were being used against my person.

 

[Embracetophats]

ok. what is up with the refreshes here?


@Veloxt1r0kore i legit just saw all your comments all at once. prior to that, i only saw the one that prompted me to apologise for the miscommunication. i probably made a pretty bad impression as a result, so once more, i apologise

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Commenting because this seems like an important discussion

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Nah,don't worry mate,friendly is more tanoshi here

 

[Reppuzan]

Until the entirety of Salem gets translated I don't see how we can make any inferences on the Outer Gods.

We should not scale them from the actual Cthulhu mythos given that similar cosmic horrors from Prelati's Spellbook got wiped by Excalibur.