Lord Harkon upgrade

[TrueBK98]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3233899

Matt's clearly doesn't agree with this so I think we can end it here since he's properly won't change his mind. The evidence we found here isn't new at all.

 

[DarkGrath]

He did say he didn't agree with it in that thread, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth asking. There definitely wasn't anything conclusive in that thread, and it's possible his opinion has shifted over time.

 

[TrueBK98]

Fine. I asked Ultima. I won't be bothering Matt this time around.

 

[TrueBK98]

Hm, didn't seem like Ultima will comment on here anytime soon. We might have to ask Matthew instead.

After spending time to think about how we should scale Lord Harkon, I think that Low 2-C for him is pretty reasonable. When Matt talked about this topic before, he mentioned that Miraak scale to The Dovahkiin 'cuz The Dragonborn add-on was a sequel to the main quest and it wrapped things up, while The Dawnguard dlc wasn't. This reason doesn't really make sense with the established lore of TES. TES games wasn't meant to have canonical order of events as The Prisoner can decide his own fate and there exists possible timelines of Nirn. Whether you have defeated Alduin or not shouldn't change Lord Harkon's power in that timeline. If Lord Harkon can fight against an End-game Dovahkiin in this timeline, so can he in another timeline. Although, Lord Harkon will still be weaker than Alduin due to the fact that he wasn't treated as big of threat as Alduin.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Matthew as well, yes.

 

[Professor_Evelyn]

Granted True regarding Lord Harkon vs Alduin i do not think it's fair to make an assumption based on how the world at large saw them. Most people dn't even know Harkon exists while a big world eating dragon on the loose is hard to miss. But thats a discussion for another time.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Matthew as well, yes.

Have you done this yet?

 

[TrueBK98]

@Antvasima

I did.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The only real connection between the Dawnguard DLC and the Main Questline is that the dragon dude there will comment on Alduin's defeat if you've done so, but if you didn't defeat Alduin, he won't complain. You can literally do Dawnguard first before anything if you have it installed and nothing will change.

A boss coming after the previous doesn't mean he's stronger anyway. ESO has normal dragons as boss fights in Elsweyr and by design they're virtually unbeatable without help or withou special items. This isn't to say that every strong dragon is Low 2-C scaling from The Vestige, but that the Elsweyr story was written in a way to present an engaging and interesting conflict with power progression, since you can literally do the Elsweyr DLC Storylines before the Main Quest in ESO, and even with different characters.

Miraak is Low 2-C because him being stronger than Alduin is stated / suggested many times, he is stronger than a guy who knows Dawn Magicks, and because Dragonborn is clearly supposed to be taking place after the Main Questline as it is a direct continuation of the Dragon / Dragonborn storyline.

Also with promotional material calling Miraak "The Dragonborn's biggest foe yet."

 

[Antvasima]

Which is technically strange, given that I beat Miraak extremely quickly at the hardest difficulty.

@Matthew

So what should we do here?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Which is technically strange, given that I beat Miraak extremely quickly at the hardest difficulty.

Even with mods to make the game more difficult miraak isn't really a challanging boss fight....

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Even the Ebony Warrior was taken down within seconds.

 

[TrueBK98]

You can do the Dragonborn questline before finishing the Main Questline tho. Being called "The Dragonborn's biggest foe yet" doesn't mean that questline must have taken place after the main quest as TES games have no canonical order of events. That statement is true only in timelines where you have finished the Main Questline or after the Dragonbreak. If Harkon can fight a End-Game Dovahkiin in one timeline, he should be able to do so in others as well. There shouldn't be a difference in power depending on whether Alduin is dead or not.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

So what should we do here?

^

 

[KongKing23]

Yes. Even the Ebony Warrior was taken down within seconds.

Just like what Matt said about Miraak, the promotional material on Ebony Warrior is confirmed on Skyrim Prima. He is also the greatest foe that the Dovahkiin ever faces. Yes, I have suspiscion that The Ebony Warrior was an aspect of Reymon Ebonarm or some Yokudan god because the devs spoke highly about him in the Prima.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

The consensus here seems to be harkon was never depicted as an overly powerful/dangerous being, even in the lore we have like one description of him phasing through ice and tearing a man in half, he doesn't have the presence in the elder scrolls lore or promotional material to consider him equal to miraak or alduin. All there is is one line swap for alduins being dead or not. Which I agree with in genral.

I kept the ebony warriors corpse around as and undead thrall which was pretty fu

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So no revisions are necessary then?

Was the undead Ebony Warrior as powerful as usual?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I beleive so.

He couldn't use any magic or shouts, but I think his perks were still intact and his weapon still did good damage. ngl I mostly used him as a pack mule and trophy...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should I close this thread then?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I think so the one support for harkon being "Equal" Is a few swapped voice lines that don't effect the story and no lore or promotional material really supports the idea.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.