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Lord Glory vs Crimson King

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Does Shekinah has any cosmic bullshit reasons regarding the nature of his existence that stops Crimson King from metahaxing him to nonexistence and beyond?

If not, then i don't see what he can do to Crimson King (assuming this match is using Dis, the True Crimson King), taking into account his stupidly good Forcefields, Plot and Fate Manipulation that are powerful enough to directly oppose the abstract embodiment of creation whose mere will is the Dark Tower equivalent of the concept of "Fate" and who is called "The Author of all that is", as well as his stupid Death Manipulation, High-Godly Regenerationn, Abstract Existence and Resistance to Existence Erasure. I don't see what Shekinah can do to stop Dis from metahaxing him to nothingness

....although that "Glory was unnafected by Destiny's book being rewritten" seems interesting...
 
If he's any more powerful than the Endless themselves (which his profile does seem to imply), then there's a chance that High-Godly won't matter. And if the bit about Destiny's book is true, then I'm pretty sure that means he's resistant to Fate Manipulation of an extremely high order.

But yeah, in the interest of making sure I know what I'm saying here, is there anything about his nature/existence/etc. that would prevent the King from simply screwing him with his other hax? Or anything that would penetrate those absurd defensive options?

Also, I swear CK is becoming one of the most popular High 1-B characters to use at this point. Don't know what to think about that.
 
Rewriting Destiny's Book isn't simply fate manipulation, it's more than that.The feat was performed by Dream, who with the dreams of a thousand dreamers, rewrote reality from the very beginning.

It rewrote Destiny's Book, from the very beginning to the very end, no one, not even the other Endless remembers this.Remember that Dream isn't just limited to dreams but since he is the opposite of reality, he also defines it.

Dream rewrote Creation using the same method he used during the Dreams of a Thousand Cats.To understand how potent the power of dreams is, refer to The Presence' s profile:

The Presence has stated that he was shaped by external forces, apparently intended to be the beliefs and imaginations of humanity, rather than a 4th Wall reference to the writers or real-world humans. This concept was introduced in The Sandman: A Dream of a Thousand Cats, which depicts that originally cats were the dominant species on Earth, being giant beasts which hunted humans. However, the collected dream of a world where humans ruled over cats altered reality from it's very beginning, making it so that humans were always larger than cats.

If it was concluded that Crimson King won't screw Destiny, then he will have A LOT more problem screwing someone like Glory who remains unaffected even after existence was completely rewritten.

,
 
We argued that CK wouldn't have been affected by Destiny's book either. CK could have wiped out the DT if a 1-A being of an actually extremely high order didn't prevent him from doing stuff.

CK also could have restructured existence, and is implied to have been able to affect the nature of the Prim, a 1-A realm, alongside Maerlyn. The only reason CK likely couldn't have metahaxed the Endless into oblivion is because of their direct connection to 1-A beings and realms. Not to mention he can directly affect the plot and create plot shields which enable him to be impervious to, well, basically everything. Gan couldn't even destroy him, just make it so he was unable to come into existence, that being why Dis needed an avatar to interact with the world. He's pretty much as close as you can get to 1-A, and the only reason he doesn't *have* the possibly 1-A is due to being likely tied to the nature of Gan, although you could argue he have it (Looking back to when I redid the profiles, possibly higher could have worked)

Even if he isn't tied to Destiny's book, King wouldn't be either. If he's not as intrinsic as the Endless, even if he's far stronger than them King might be able to win here via hax, particularly plot and death manip.

(Also, why does King not have Conceptual Manipulation? He could completely restructure all of existence to suit his needs were it not for Gan's power holding him back)
 
I think Glory has the AP advantage. A mere Shadow of Destiny's Book is capable of destroying all of creation in DC.

I'm following, mainly spectating for now. I'll also note, if the Glory is unbound by Destiny's Book, he is immune to Fate Manipulation, like Lucifer, and if Glory transcends the Monitor Sphere, he should have a resistance to Plot Manipulation, seeing as it is a self-assembling hyper-story above the concept of the story of DC. Also, if he wrote the laws the Endless abide by, like Death of the Endless being below him, I have a hard time imagining Death Manipulation being his downfall.

I'm not voting at the moment, just seeing how this goes.
 
If he transcends the Monitor-Sphere, then he's 1-A and definitely not High 1-B. I also outlined how King was basically capable of the same thing if not for Gan holding him back, not to mention transcending an infinitely-infinite series of dimensions and hierarchies. See Gan's page for how large that existence is that King can restructure and erase.

I don't see how he can get rid of King either, since King couldn't even be destroyed by a possibly 1-A (and not baseline at that) being.

Not to mention King was pretty much stated to have higher AP than both Death and Destiny, but was inconclusive of killing them due to their range and status.
 
Oh, let me reword. Does he predate the Monitor Sphere? It would essentially have the same effect in this scenario, predating the concept of the story of DC, and thus not bound by it.

And if that's so, then wouldn't he also be inconclusive of killing Glory if he's superior to them, not being bound by their embodied concepts either?
 
Well, you could honestly argue the same about the King, since he predates all of existence and shares the same origin as Gan, who exists within or even predates the timeless Void that existed before everything.

Yeah, it's looking like maybe another inconclusive for the same reasons as why he couldn't kill Death, though I still think that the King-verse is of comparable size to the DC one.
 
Meh, I guess this will just be another inconclusive for Dis, then.

Maybe I should put him against GEoM, but that would likely be a hard stomp.
 
Yes, The Council of the First Circle existed before everything.Dream said that the Laws were set when everything was Void.Destiny also existed even before Creation, he traced the Word even before it was even spoken aloud by the Voice.

[[1]] Antavasima: The Endless have been described as wave functions, and are embodiments of an infinite-dimensional multiverse, which means High 1-B. However, Destiny might exceed that scale, and as such is "At least High 1-B"/"Possibly 1-A".

And Destiny exists above the Monitor Sphere, that was the reason why he was High 1-C in the past, the only reason Destiny isn't straight up 1-A is because of that Wave Function statement.The Source is now 1-A, one of Destiny's previous tier justification was that he exists at the same level as The Source beyond the Source Wall.

Comparing the cosmology of DC and Darktower is useless, the DC multiverse is so different from the Darktower that you cant even compare them.One is that Creation in DC changes depending on the beliefs of its inhabitants.If enough people believe that everyone is 1-A, then everyone is 1-A.If enough people believe that it is made of infinite x infinite number of dimensions then it is.If you're thinking that its NLF, it isn't because that's how The Presence was created.The Creation of DC was described as a mind, a story, if at least a thousand people dream of the same thing then that dream would become reality, Dream could drag dreams into reality and "overwrite" that version of reality.In the Sandman Overture, Dream even rewrote reality even though reality is already non-existent and was already swallowed up by the outerversal realm of Mother Night

Dream rewrote everything, from the very start of the Book which is even before Creation existed to its very end.The Endless are almost absolute when it comes to their function if an out of character Dream (If Dream is willing to manipulate the dreams of living beings, he doesn't do it because of the Laws of Existence, the laws set by the First Circle ) fought Crimson King then it doesn't matter if he exists even before DT or not, he'll get retconned because of how potent Dream's reality warping and fate rewriting is I don't really see any AP gap between them
 
If he's got nothing more potent than Dreams reality rewrite (which affects everything even before existence, capable of creating someone vastly stronger than himself like the Presence)

Basically, the Presence is the most powerful being in existence because people dreamed that he is .Dream made those collective dreams come true, rewrote everything from the very beginning so that the Presence is the supreme ruler of Creation

Glory and Destiny are at the ceiling of High 1-B, Destiny is just at least High 1-B because of that wave function statement, even though he has crapton of 1-A feats.Glory is only High 1-B to be safe but he is likely far higher than that
 
CK predates all of existence, and Gan can't kill CK. I don't want to have to bring up THAT blog, but the guy directly manipulates the plot to silly levels, and can literally create shields made out of metafiction. It's not just reality rewriting, it's entire verse rewriting, which is only limited by the White in the form of the Rose and the Tower's spirits. So I don't see how Glory could beat CK either, because CK could *also* be 1-A, originating from the Prim, but he doesn't have as much corresponding evidence as Gan and Bessa do. Seems like another instance of inconclusive.
 
Aeyu said:
CK predates all of existence, and Gan can't kill CK. I don't want to have to bring up THAT blog, but the guy directly manipulates the plot to silly levels, and can literally create shields made out of metafiction. It's not just reality rewriting, it's entire verse rewriting, which is only limited by the White in the form of the Rose and the Tower's spirits. So I don't see how Glory could beat CK either, because CK could *also* be 1-A, originating from the Prim, but he doesn't have as much corresponding evidence as Gan and Bessa do. Seems like another instance of inconclusive.
Click to expand...
Dream's reality rewrote/overwrite changed events even before Creation existed, affected beings that exists even before reality and "rewrote" Creation even though it doesn't even exist anymore.

So Glory resisted a verse rewrite that rewrote even events that existed even before that verse existed and rewrote a verse that was already basically non-existent

That's some pretty potent stuff, Glory was unaffected by that so I also really don't see him "getting metahaxxed into nothingness"

Edit: I already know that blog, there's a period where I was very interested in Gan and CK because they seem so damn powerful.
 
Aeyu said:
Sure, here ya go:
Click to expand...
This is aimed specifically at Monarch, but...

Veteran Tip: Skip to the last page of that thread/blog/whatever. Some bits specifically regarding how the plot & story powers work are posted towards the end, including stuff that isn't in the Gan & Crimson King sections.
 
@Sandman, I've literally said I was going inconclusive lol

Also, I mean they sorta are. Even by just reading the books/comic books you get that impression. The whole speech in the first book that Walter gives Roland literally talks about infinitely infinite dimensions and CK, or "The Beast," as he's called in the first rendition, transcending all of that, with the Dark Tower as the end prize.
 
Soory, that's not for you.That's for Ultima Reality.I just said to him why the glory wont be metahaxxed to non existence

I need to learn to tag people
 
Unrelated to the battle itself, but speaking of the respect thread, I think our profile might have a slight error on it.

"still managed to have some influence over the world even when reduced to almost nothing by Patrick Danville, empowered by Bessa."

The above is listed under Los' section. Didn't this happen to Dis, though?
 
Oh, okay.

So, @King...

If Gan "transcends size," that could be a more concrete reasoning for 1-A, and thus make him "likely 1-A," instead of possibly so. I mean, he was gonna be just straight 1-A in his true form and I was the one who was like "meh", so...
 
Also @Azzy, no, it happened to the avatar (Los), not Dis. Los is the vessel CK uses while within Existence to manipulate events, and Dis is the transcendental, true form of CK that predates creation (And even arguably his own mother). Dis can't enter reality because of Gan's spirit, but if Gan's avatar (The Tower) was disconnected, Gan would shoot back into the Prim and Dis would be allowed to come in and literally conquer all of existence.
 
Los is a specific avatar, though.

This happened to the other physical King (not true Dis, I'm aware), did it not? The one at the top of the Tower?

""Yes. His physical being is pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King.""
 
Yeah, a different one, but it still could be considered to be another variation of Los. The only one that doesn't really look like that or have those attributes is the Black Thirteen, which could be considered CK's version of the Tower/Rose.

From the blog post:


Another form of the Crimson King is that of Black 13, a magical artifact from which the King's Eye looks out of. It can banish people out of the universe: "And Callahan sees what's inside the box: he sees Black Thirteen crouched on its red velvet like the slick eye of a monster that grew outside God's shadow. And Callahan begins to shriek at the sight of it, for he senses its endless power"

"Deep down in the black eye, a red speck forms, glows....grows. Callahans horror swells, filling his throat, threatening to stop his heart with its chill. Its the King, he thinks. Its the Eye of the Crimson King as he looks down from his place in the Dark Tower. And he is seeing me.

"NO!" Callahan shrieks........"NO! NO! DONT LOOK AT ME! OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DONT LOOK AT ME!" - Wolves of the Calla In the Dark Tower, Rando Thoughtful, the Crimson Kings Minister of State, says that "Big Red always was Gans crazy side."


Honestly, the way Black 13 is described later, in that it predates everything, is very much connected to the Prim, and embodies the power of the Void beyond creation, I think that this could be CK's 1-A form.


Also from the blog post:

The Crimson King's avatar is naturally resistant to being erased from reality. The power of the Rose is needed to accomplish this feat:


"Now take thy pad, Patrick. Draw yonder man." Not that he was a man, but at least he looked like one.

At first, however, Patrick only continued to gaze at Roland, biting his lip. Then, at last, he took the sides of the gunslinger's head in his hands and brought it forward until they were brow to brow.

Very hard, whispered a voice deep in Roland's mind. It was not the voice of a boy at all, but of a grown man. A powerful man. He's not entirely there. He darkles. He tincts. - The Dark TowerSurely if Patrick had been able to erase the sore from that one, then he could erase the Crimson King from this one, leaving nothing but the balcony railing before him and the closed door to the Tower's barrel behind. Roland almost expected the Crimson King to breathe and move, and so surely it was done! Surely...

But it was not. It was not, and wanting would not make it so.

Not even needing would make it so. - The Dark TowerPatrick colored the other eye with the same delicate dip of the finger. Now two brilliant crimson eyes looked out of Patrick's black-and-white drawing, eyes that had been colored with attar of rose and the blood of Eld; eyes that burned with Hell's own fire.

It was done.

Roland produced the eraser at last, and held it out to Patrick. "Make him gone," he said. "Make yonder foul hob gone from this world and every world. Make him gone at last." - The Dark Tower


Oh yeah, and I still think I could make a case for 1-A Maerlyn, based off of rising from the Outer Dark of the Prim first, the fact that he possesses Black Thirteen, and that he has full power over the Todash Darkness between dimensions, which is also a void.

I can make a separate thread for that, but here's this:

What bubbled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark, the ki'box of eternity. And out of that ki'box stepped a being that looked like the creatures that would later be called human, but human it was not. The firstborn of the Outer Dark was an agent of magic, and it called itself Maerlyn.- The Gunslinger BornThough Maerlyn looked like a grey-bearded mage, he was an Agent of the Prim, a creature of raw magic. Like the chaotic force that bore him, he cared nothing for either stability or order. All he cared about was his own amusement, and what amused him most was havoc. - The Gunslinger Bor

Maerlyn hated being exiled to Todash Darkness, so came up with a plan to lash out at creation via his laughing mirror. In doing so, he did a great service to the Random/Outer Dark by increasing that evil force's influence within the many worlds:

Maerlyn wanted Gan's pristine multiverse to reflect his own inner darkness, not the clear energy of its maker. He wanted to sully the new worlds so that he could fill them with his own filthy nests, but how to do so?

As the water of creation dripped from Gan's body, still sparkling with the energy of life that Gan had imbued it with, Maerlyn caught the drops in his hands. Cupping this precious fluid until it solidified, Maerlyn raced back to his cave on the shores of the Prim and placed it on a potters wheel where he spun it until it was thin and round. Then he placed his transparency facedown on his table.

The first thing Maerlyn did was spit a gob of silver spit onto the glass. He spread this evenly over the glass's back surface with his right forefinger - the one he used to point and to accuse. Once the silvering dried, he painted it twice more - once with a layer of vanity and then one of self-deception. Both of these coatings were so black that they were impenetrable to the light of reason. - The Gunslinger Bor

His magical looking glass was made to distort.

In the mirror's polished silver surface, good appeared ugly while evil seemed handsome. Not only did the mirror make all reflections of the White appear hideous and stupid, but it also made them seem ridiculous. In fact, the stronger the power of the White that it faced, the funnier the mirror found it and the louder it laughed. - The Gunslinger Bor
 
Indeed. What I am saying is that the books treated Los more like a specific avatar if I'm remembering correctly, while the King erased near the end was another physical manifestation, but not Los (as in, not "born" as the other was, treated as a separate entity, etc.)
 
It seems like CK can just make a massive amount of avatars of himself who all seem to be relatively at the same level as Los or even more powerful. It makes sense though, taking into account his metafiction/reality warping/creation/plot manip/void manip hax (He doesn't have Void Manipulation or Concept Manipulation, and since Black Thirteen and CK both control these via the blog, CK should have them)

I think we might need to have a thread about Kingverse and adding more stuff for the top tiers, making more ultra-high tiered creatures, etc. Because Gan, Bessa and CK aren't the only transcendental, dimension warping dudes, neither are they the only ones who originate from the Void beyond creation.
 
I turned away for half an hour or so and somehow got left behind a good few miles...
 
Yep. Turns out we might need some more DT revisions (plus added profiles for Maerlyn and Todash beings like the Cthuns, as well as some cleanup on Gan's profile, maybe a straight 1-A rating for him and Bessa, and an additional Possibly 1-A key for Black Thirteen and maybe some other stuff) except this time I'll put more back work into it ;-;
 
Also, other stuff I've seen is showing that Maerlyn also has an avatar and a real form (due to Twinning), and it was his avatar that got trapped by the magic, with his real form being claimed to be the first being that arose from the Prim and with all of that, I think he might be able to receive an actual 1-A rating.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Unrelated to the battle itself, but speaking of the respect thread, I think our profile might have a slight error on it.
"still managed to have some influence over the world even when reduced to almost nothing by Patrick Danville, empowered by Bessa."

The above is listed under Los' section. Didn't this happen to Dis, though?
Click to expand...
I just saw this.

IIRC, this specifically happened to Los' around the point where he more or less went out of his mind from paranoia. After he mind-controlled his entire court into killing themselves, he turned himself undead (by way of suicide or something), then travelled to the Tower, tried to enter/ascend the thing, and then got stuck on a balcony near the top.

That's what I remember of it, anyway. There might be some details missing.
 
Yeah, he unkilled himself to avoid Roland's guns due to his mind becoming unhinged. .-.

But yeah, that pretty much covers the gist of it. King needs Conceptual Manip and Void Manip for the reasons I stated, though. Todash Space is non-dimensional and is similar to the Prim.
 
Yeah, this looks like another textbook stalemate for CK tbh. I really don't see how this is gonna turn out any different from the other matches the King has had with Vertigo's cosmics.

Voting inconclusive for the reasons already outlined.

EDIT: Also, kudos to DC for getting yet another uber-strong High 1-B added to their side of the wiki.
 
I think inconclusive is just well established at this point, unless more people join Boogie's side.

I wanna talk about Maerlyn being 1-A due to the stuff I posted above, though.

He's stated to "twin," just like CK and Gan, and his lower form (the one you explained to me couldn't be 1-A because he got trapped via magic while drunk) was only his avatar, his real form being the first-born of the Outer-Dark in the Prim.
 
When was he stated to have a twinner? I don't remember encountering a statement of that anywhere.

Also, we have a DT discussion thread now. Why aren't you bring this up in there?
 
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