LOL Dark Star / Cosmic Court Downgrade

[WeeklyBattles]

Here

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Monarch youre treating everything i just gave you as its own individual feat out of context. When taken with everything together its very blatant.
What youre essentially doing is saying that if Beerus says he can destroy the universe at one point and then at another point taps his finger on a planet and blows it up and then at another point actually does destroy the universe that means that Beerus is only planet level and that him claiming to be able to destroy the universe is just boastful nonsense while his feat of destroying the universe is an outlier.

Excuse me? Nice strawman.

I'm taking everything you've given me with every other bit of context. I read the lore for every skin in Event Horizon. I have now read through the quotes of every Event Horizon character with new lines. I'm not taking anything out of context, I am considering it with every bit of context I have.

Let me throw a dragonball example right back at you. What you are doing is essentially saying "well Buu destroyed a galaxy" while completely ignoring that it was done bit by bit over time. Just substitute Buu for dark stars and galaxy for universe.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Except youre not and its very obvious youre not. Otherwise you wouldnt dismiss characters saying they can destroy universes as being boastful or flowery language when they have feats and evidence to back up that they can and have in fact destroyed universes

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Here

That says nothing about Kassadin tanking anything. It just says he watches. Ok, so the Dark Star God can be Low 2-C. Given that is its a living singularity that has absorbed multiple universes and space-times, albeit one at a time, that's fine.

But that is referring to The Dark Star. As in Dark Star Thresh's god, the true Dark Star, the actual higher being, the living singualrity.

"a sentient singularity that mindlessly erases existence just by being there" -> this is referring to the true Dark Star.

"popping out matter devouring eldritch gods" -> these are the corruptants and the dark cosmics. Proof that the Dark Star "pops these out" can be found in the scans in my top post about Dark Star Malphite, Dark Star Xerath, Dark Star Shaco, Dark Cosmic Jhin, and probably more of them but those are enough examples. It all says that the Dark Star passed over their system and erased it, consumed it and corrupted or remade them or whatever.

The Dark Star servants don't scale to the true being. They are simply the people who go around destroying everything and feeding the remnants to the Dark Star.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Except youre not and its very obvious youre not. Otherwise you wouldnt dismiss characters saying they can destroy universes as being boastful or flowery language when they have feats and evidence to back up that they can and have in fact destroyed universes

Every instance of their universe destruction is done over time, by destroying stars and galaxies, and feeding the remnants to the Dark Star God, which is what is really destroying everything.

Every quote the Dark Star corruptants have of destroying the universe is done by destroying and feeding the remnants to the true Dark Star God until the Dark Star - which is a living singularity - swallows up the universe.

It's very obvious to me that you are cherry picking and ignoring the overall lore. You claim to be using context, but the only context you are using is "muh multiple universe destruction statements". You're not considering the entire lore of the Event Horizon, which is that all the dark star corruptants are servants of the Dark Star God, and they are destroying parts of the universe and feeding them to the Dark Star until everything is erased.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Show me on instanc wher destroying the unvierse is done over time and i can give you ten instances of it being done instantly

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Show me on instanc wher destroying the unvierse is done over time and i can give you ten instances of it being done instantly

Already done in the post, but seeing as you clearly haven't read it, I'll post them again.

Dark Star Kha'Zix: The hunger of the abyss, Kha'Zix is an alien horror whose ceaseless appetite feeds the Dark Star. Appearing before planets like a titanic locust, it devours all it encounters.

Prestige Dark Star Malphite: Gilded by the Dark Star's touch and empowered through its radiance, Malphite barrels across space, demolishing entire systems and consuming the broken remnants into his immense and twisted form.

Dark Star Varus: An interstellar titan containing multitudes within his eldritch mind, Varus serves the all-consuming Dark Star, a dread singularity born in the darkness of deep space. His arrival is a cataclysmic extinction event, erasing entire planetary systems as if they were never there.

Finally, here's Thresh. His only goal is to feed all of existence to the Dark Star. He has no reason not to just wipe everything out if he is capable of doing so with a single swing of his scythe. He wants to leap into the singularity and become one with the end of the universe once he has done this.

Dark Star Thresh: A cosmic nightmare who worships the all-consuming Dark Star, Thresh vows to feed the whole of existence to his "god" until all matter, time, and thought are erased. His work will be complete when nothing remains, freeing him to finally leap into the singularity and become one with the end of the universe.

Yet he has not fed the whole of existence to the Dark Star, despite this being his entire goal. Instead, he has to "work" at it, "until" he is finally free to do what he wants.


There. Several direct pieces of lore showing the Dark Stars travelling across the universe to destroy it, doing it star system by star system rather than entire universes at once.

Lore indicates the Dark Stars want to destroy the universe. These Dark Stars have no special reason like art or psychological warfare to not destroy it all at once. Yet they do not destroy it all at once, they travel through it destroying everything in their path instead, appearing at new planets. Both Thresh and Kha'Zix's lore also indicate that they are feeding the Dark Star for this.

Four examples of them wiping out the universe over time. I expect 40 examples of them wiping them out instantly now. And they have to be explicitly instant. Simple quotes of "they destroyed everything" are not enough so don't bother with them.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

None of those are instances of them destroying universes over time. What youve posted are instances of low end feats akin to 3-A frieza busting a planet

The Dark Star wants to destroy 5-D reality, not just the universe. The Dark Stars have already dstroyed countless universes

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No, those are indicators of the methods used by these beings who want nothing more than to destroy the entire universe.

Funny how despite them wanting nothing more than to destroy the entire universe, they're all just going around solar system by solar system, feeding what they destroy to the dark star huh.

Almost as if they can't just wave their hands and destroy everything.

 

[Planck69]

I don't think using low-end feats as an excuse for a downgrade makes any sense. DC and Marvel characters would peak at 7-A, Hadou Gds would only be 4-A etc. But Weekly and you can argue this out since you're the experts.

So I'm just gonna nope out of this thread. It's starting to feel like one of those Comicvine threads were CAS is only 4-A bcuz he's harmed by billions of stars. Fight on Weekly.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

>Almost as if they can't just wave their hands and destroy everything.

Almost like they literally have multiple statements that they can

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

>Almost as if they can't just wave their hands and destroy everything.
Almost like they literally have multiple statements that they can

Hi again. Looks like we'll only be chatting here from now on.

Do you mean statements like Jhin's? Those vague statements that you're stretching as far as you possibly can? No one will accept them

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't think using low-end feats as an excuse for a downgrade makes any sense. DC and Marvel characters would peak at 7-A, Hadou Gds would only be 4-A etc. But Weekly and you can argue this out since you're the experts.

These aren't low ends I'm using. These are the consistent averages. Destroying the void is the outlier here, not the norm.

This isn't like saying Hadou Gods are 4-A because one of their attacks uses a lot of stars. This is like saying that because Icema shot some ice at Oblivio and knocked him over, he's 1-A

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm in agreement with Monarch for now regarding the downgrade.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

These aren't low ends I'm using. These are the consistent averages. Destroying the void is the outlier here, not the norm.

They kinda are low-ends seeing as along with the Void destruction the Devs also confirmed that the Celectial Court scales to the baseline Celestials in the main multiverse

If you had listened earlier i was going to tell you that buuuuut

 

[Planck69]

These aren't low ends I'm using. These are the consistent averages. Destroying the void is the outlier here, not the norm.

This isn't like saying Hadou Gods are 4-A because one of their attacks uses a lot of stars. This is like saying that because Icema shot some ice at Oblivio and knocked him over, he's 1-A

And the destruction of universes and timelines that you keep claiming don't count because they "take place over time"? Not to mention how any feat in Tier 2 is still that tier regardless of time frame anyway. A statement of destroying universes and all of creationis far more likely to be referring to an at least 4-D spacetime than the matter inside it.

Not really the best example. Iceman blatantly has feats that contradict hm being that tier. Here it's characters performing several 4-A to 3-C feats and also performing some Tier 2 feats but you deciding that the latter are hyperbole and boastful language. Surprise, every feat past Tier 3 has a far greater chance of being interpreted as flowery language considernig that most of the time the feat in question is a statement. But we don't do that for Zeno, we don't do that for Nightgaunts and we certainly shouldn't do that here.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And the destruction of universes and timelines that you keep claiming don't count because they "take place over time"? Not to mention how any feat in Tier 2 is still that tier regardless of time frame anyway. A statement of destroying universes and all of creationis far more likely to be referring to an at least 4-D spacetime than the matter inside it.

Not really the best example. Iceman blatantly has feats that contradict hm being that tier. Here it's characters performing several 4-A to 3-C feats and also performing some Tier 2 feats but you deciding that the latter are hyperbole and boastful language. Surprise, every feat past Tier 3 has a far greater chance of being interpreted as flowery language considernig that most of the time the feat in question is a statement. But we don't do that for Zeno, we don't do that for Nightgaunts and we certainly shouldn't do that here.

The tier 2 destruction of the universe is done by the Dark Star God, by the corruptants destroying star systems as they travel across the universe and feeding the remants to him like Thresh and Kha'Zix does. The Dark Star God doesn't scale to the corruptants.

I've never said they are flowerly language. That's a misinterpretation of what I've been saying. Please re-read

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

They kinda are low-ends seeing as along with the Void destruction the Devs also confirmed that the Celectial Court scales to the baseline Celestials in the main multiverse

If you had listened earlier i was going to tell you that buuuuut

Ah so the Celestials eh. You mean people like.... Bard? The 4-B? Interesting.

"If I had listened earlier" lmao what. I've been reading everything you've posted. Nothing was stopping you from posting that to begin with other than yourself.

 

[Rocker1189]

Gonna have to agree with weekly here. So they have a bunch of lower end statements means that they have to be tier 3? S lot of verses have lower end statements while being far higher in Ap. This is just ridiculous.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bard isnt a celestial, Bard is the 3-Dimensional puppet of a Celestial used to interact with the mortal world

Also i meant on Discord but okay

 

[Rocker1189]

The only reason their speeds is like this is because the forums got removed. They were stated to view time as an outmoded construct used by humanity and Jhin himself mocked humans about their use of linear time. The only reason they don't destroy everything immediately is because of the existence of the Cosmics in the first place and possibly the pulsefires. As we know the entire void was consumed by thresh himself. This just seems like a bad attempt to downgrade the 5-Ds.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Can't really agree with wildly extrapolating statements and repeating them as if they are supposed to be reasonable arguments. Monarch has the reasonable points and makes more sense.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Nothing is being extrapolated. On the contrary, legitimate feats and statements are being dismissed in favor of low-end feats for seemingly no reason

 

[Planck69]

Can't really agree with wildly extrapolating statements and repeating them as if they are supposed to be reasonable arguments. Monarch has the reasonable points and makes more sense.

Not gonna comment on your view of Monarch's points (your opinion is yours) but what the hell do you mean by "wildly extrapolating statements"? They're blatantly referring to the destruction of universes and multiverses which just so happen to be Low 2-C and 2-A feats respectively. A lowball isn't always the correct interpretation of a feat otherwise we'd end up with Low 2-C Tier 1 verses.

 

[Rocker1189]

Can't really agree with wildly extrapolating statements and repeating them as if they are supposed to be reasonable arguments. Monarch has the reasonable points and makes more sense.

As always avoiding the actual argument but throwing in buzzwords to look like you are saying something.

 

[RegisNex1232]

The actual argument that is being proposed against Monarch is "Let's take X statement about the single strongest entity in LoL and act like everyone else scales to it while conveniently ignoring that other characters take more time to carry out far weaker feats and that they end up working together to do bigger stuff.".

Not seeing how that is supposed to be worth listening to, especially when the quotes and statements being brought up don't exactly fit the argument.

 

[Rocker1189]

The dark Star itself would consume everything. Thresh himself consumed they void which is what he scales to. You clearly did not understand the scaling.

Attempting to do bigger things when your direct rivals (those being the Cosmics) still exist is downright stupid.

 

[Planck69]

The actual argument that is being proposed against Monarch is "Let's take X statement about the single strongest entity in LoL and act like everyone else scales to it while conveniently ignoring that other characters take more time to carry out far weaker feats and that they end up working together to do bigger stuff.".
Not seeing how that is supposed to be worth listening to, especially when the quotes and statements being brought up don't exactly fit the argument.

Even if we go the "they take time" route, you could take a million years to destroy the universe or multiverse and you'd still at the very least be Low 2-C. Also what do you mean it only scales to the god-tier? Statements already exist for the others about destroying universes, mulitiverses and all of creation but of course, they're taken to be flowery language or hyperbole.

And using one-off descriptions like they're the absolute in determining a character's tier is how we end up with 4-C Boros, Low 2-C Yog-Sothoth and other ridiculous statistics.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Gonna have to agree with Monarch.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Just want to point out that even if monarch is correct abuot everything else, the Dark Stars and Cosmics will stay Low 1-C as long as the cosmology is Low 1-C

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

One off descriptions?

Multiple lines implicating a time frame is a one off description?

Multiple lines to all the people that should scale implicating power nowhere near is "one off statements"?

What is this ridiculous bull.

And no. If you aren't doing it in one go, it is not Low 2-C. It'd never be, not even close. You'd need to do it all at once.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Sir You have just described 95% of the feats on this wiki

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Bullshit is not an argument, Weekly.

And it is bullshit when I hear you claim that like you know 95 of feats on the wiki.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also its kinda hard to believe you know what is actually being argued here if you think their tiers are based off of singular descriptions

 

[Rocker1189]

Except he is right most feats on this wiki that are high end do not have a given timeframe or are over time.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Let me sum up

- All statements of the Corruptants and Cosmics in the lore personally doing something with their own power place them at tier 4 to 3. They have statements of destroying star systems, being made out of a galaxy, creating constellations, etc. These are the only things we are explicitly told they are capable of doing instantly with their own power. We are given a method, we are giving a timeframe. Ashe just fires arrows and they become constellations. Malphite just charges through things and breaks them apart. Kha'Zix and Thresh feed them to the Dark Star God.

- Every statement of the Corruptants destroying a universe or reality gives no timeframe or method for how they did so. I can say that I could destroy a house. It's not wrong - just give me a sledgehammer and a few days. But that doesn't place me at 8-C. Method and time frame are important, and the universal / all of existence statements lack both of these things, which are incredibly important for justifications, especially at high tiers. Anyone remember the whole "Buu is Galaxy level despite destroying the galaxy over an extended time period" fiasco?

- The way the Corruptants work is repeatedly stated to be by travelling across space and destroying celestial objects in their path. This is repeated to be what they do many many times in their lore, in their images, in their quotes.

- The Dark Star God, a living black hole which is capable of destroying universes, does not scale to the Corruptants. It is their god, them being equal to it is inane.

- Several pieces of lore, namely Thresh and Kha'Zix's indicate that the Corruptants feed the Dark Star, giving it the remnants of what they destroy.

- Despite the majority of the Corruptants wanting to destroy the entire universe, with that being the reason for their being and the thing they want most in the world, none of them simply wave their hand and destroy it. There is zero logical reason for this. If they want something, and they have the means to achieve it, they would do this. The only reason they would not simply wipe out everything instantly, would be because they can't. This feeds back into the previous point. Why would they be travelling across space destroying individual solar systems if they could just wave their hands and destroy everything? It makes no sense.

- The only logical conclusion is that the corruptants don't and can't destroy the universe, or all of existence for that matter, instantly on their own. They are the heralds and servants of the Dark Star God, preparing these worlds for it to consume by destroying everything. Although the majority of them simply want to destroy "all of existence" ASAP, they do not simply swing their preferred weapon and wipe out all of existence, because they can't.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

And what are they based on? I've been skimming the arguments and counters a couple of times because I wanted to get my mind off something else and not seeing much else.

Not only is the 5-D stuff being contested for the void, if not outright feeling rather insufficient when I read it, there seems to be far more consistent feats in a certain range from people that "should scale", putting that in contention.

 

[Planck69]

One off descriptions?
Multiple lines implicating a time frame is a one off description?

Multiple lines to all the people that should scale implicating power nowhere near is "one off statements"?

What is this ridiculous bull.

And no. If you aren't doing it in one go, it is not Low 2-C. It'd never be, not even close. You'd need to do it all at once.

You can find multiple statements of 5-B Superman. Doesn't make them anywhere near useful for wiki purposes. But you know what? Let's just say I'm incorrect:

Even the most infinitesimal fraction of the energy needed to destroy a space-time continuum is still Low 2-C. You can't downscale from those kinds of feats by taking time.

Consuming all of creation is never once going to refer to the physical matter of one universe in a setting where other realities exist.

None of those statements cited by Monarch even remotely hint that that's the extent of their power. I can repeatedly say a 3-A can destroy the sun. Doesn't mean he isn't as powerful as he is.

 

[Rocker1189]

You are ignoring that the Cosmics exist in direct opposition to this and literally created reality beforehand. You destroy everything and then it get recreated in an instant? Then what is the point?.

 

[RegisNex1232]

- The Dark Star God, a living black hole which is capable of destroying universes, does not scale to the Corruptants. It is their god, them being weaker than it is inane.

A little confused here. Do you mean that the DS God is weaker/stronger than the Corruptants, or just that the DS God has its own feat and doesn't scale to the Corruptants and vice versa?