LOL Dark Star / Cosmic Court Downgrade

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

None so far, no conclusion can be reached without the 5-D thread being concluded

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So what we have is consistently tier 3-4 and one single statement of a low 1-C feat with no further context, and you're trying to argue the tier 1 feat isn't an outlier?

We have four feats of scaling to a tier 1 feat as well as Word of God backing it up with the tier 3-4 feats as well as several tier 2 feats being consistent low ends done as casually as them literally just existing and thinking, so yes, i am arguing that it is not an outlier

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

We have four feats of scaling to a tier 1 feat as well as Word of God backing it up with the tier 3-4 feats as well as several tier 2 feats being consistent low ends done as casually as them literally just existing and thinking, so yes, i am arguing that it is not an outlier

This never happens.

Unless you are talking about the tier 3 - 4 feats being done casually by them existing and thinking, in which case I suggest you reword your comment so you aren't giving people the impression that tier 2 feats are done by them existing and thinking, because that never happens.

You have also not presented any of these feats that scale to tier 1.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

None so far, no conclusion can be reached without the 5-D thread being concluded

Incorrect. Regardless of the outcome of that thread, whether the void is 1-C or 2-A, unless there are more consistent feats of that level, it is an outlier amidst the far more numerous tier 4-3 feats the cosmic court and corruptants have.

Stop trying to stonewall and post the evidence of all these feats that you say there are.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Incorrect. Regardless of the outcome of that thread, whether the void is 1-C or 2-A, unless there are more consistent feats of that level, it is an outlier amidst the far more numerous tier 4-3 feats the cosmic court and corruptants have.

Incorrect. Unless we have some reason to use their immensely casual low end feats, which we dont, we have no reason to consider their tier 1 feats outliers lest we downgrade every character on the wiki who is tier 1 if they do anything less than tier 1 feats more consistently. Same goes with anyone above wall level really.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This never happens.

Unless you are talking about the tier 3 - 4 feats being done casually by them existing and thinking, in which case I suggest you reword your comment so you aren't giving people the impression that tier 2 feats are done by them existing and thinking, because that never happens.

You have also not presented any of these feats that scale to tier 1.

It does happen

when someone who has visited an infinite amount of universes says that the Dark Star corruptants can destroy all of reality yes, it does happen.

Consuming the Void, the Celestial Court being scaled to the main multiverse Celestials, existing beyone Nagakabouros and Eternum Nocturne, etc.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I don't think repeating stuff without evidence is what Monarch is asking for at all. Without the evidence, your arguments don't have much meaning and only show that you really don't want this to happen.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Considering im the one who has been constantly doing nothing but posting evidence here while Monarch has just been giving opinionated rebuttals, i'd prefer it if you didnt accuse me of not posting evidence regis

 

[RegisNex1232]

I mean you've just given stuff we've seen already and claimed that they totally answer what Monarch is asking, which doesn't hold up when examined closely.

So yeah, not exactly posting the evidence required to show that they deserve the 1-C rating rather than 3-C.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It does happen

when someone who has visited an infinite amount of universes says that the Dark Star corruptants can destroy all of reality yes, it does happen.

Consuming the Void, the Celestial Court being scaled to the main multiverse Celestials, existing beyone Nagakabouros and Eternum Nocturne, etc.

No timeframe is given by Ezreal, and you haven't posted any proof of the corruptants scaling/existing in this way. The most you've given is a screenshot of a now removed forum board (which places its current canonicity in question to begin with) that the Dark Star itself is one of the most powerful entities in the multiverse. Specifically, the Dark Star itself, not the corruptants or the court.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Considering im the one who has been constantly doing nothing but posting evidence here while Monarch has just been giving opinionated rebuttals, i'd prefer it if you didnt accuse me of not posting evidence regis

Repeatedly directing me to look at a quote I've debunked is not posting evidence.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Once again i ask you to show where its stated that its over time

Which screenshot are you referring to?

I talked to Ultima and he agreed that Low 1-C is a no but agrees with 2-A

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You should have to prove its instant rather than the other way around. Assuming it is instant is a much greater assumption given that they are otherwise indicated to destroy universes galaxy and star system by star system.

This one

Destroying a 2-A realm is still an outlier if it is assumed to be done instantly by Thresh instead of just via feeding it to the true Dark Star.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

New dark star story focused on dark cosmic lux.

https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_AU/story/ambitions-embrace/

Relevant quotes:

They came, one by one. Shining beacons, formed of constellations, each burning with endless starfire, the potential of creation aflame within their beings.

Yi arrived first, an elegant flash of his celestial blade cutting a path through the inky space. Kassadin and Xin Zhao followed not long after. Xayah danced in, trailed by Rakan, and Lulu meandered in at the end as she always does, following some whim and whimsy only she understood.

Last, as though summoned only by our collective light, Queen Ashe arced into our midst, blazing across space-time like an incandescent arrow. The others bowed their heads in deference as I took stock of all who had come.

The cosmic court are made of constellations. Ashe "blazes across space-time", but the meaning of this quote isn't specific enough for immeasurable or infinite speed

Xin Zhao's focus and dedication in his protection of the nebulas that cradle the birth of new stars always filled me with deep admiration and appreciation.

More of Xin Zhao protecting stars and nebula.

"Jhin's light, gone." Lulu's voice rang out, clarion and pure, drawing our attention.

Some murmurs of surprise rippled out, along with a few incredulous grumbles—yet I knew we all felt the truth of her words.

Whenever a cosmic being ceases existence, the loss echoes through each of the remaining. And we had all felt his light blink into darkness.

Since then, I… I had witnessed first the twisted, broken systems left in his wake. Whatever dark, monstrous thing he had become reveled in destruction, macabre and grotesque. Stars inverted into black holes. Shattered planets left careening around wild, unhinged orbits. Devastated. Splintered.

Jhin inverting stars to black holes and shattering planets. Note these are "left in his wake", meaning that he's doing this as he moves through the universe, further evidencing my point that the dark stars destroy the universe bit by bit

Since the Harbinger's appearance, the Dark Star grows in strength." Ashe glided between us, looking each of us in the eyes as she passed. "Where we build, he guides the Dark Star to consume. Where we create the possibility of life, and light… he only destroys. For too long, we have watched his actions, tolerating him as, at best, an overzealous hastener of entropy." She looked directly into my eyes. "Now it has taken one of our own. That cannot stand."

Thresh's modus operandi is guiding the true Dark Star to consume things. This is consistent with what I have been saying the entire thread. Additionally, the court has been watching his actions for a long time, and until they took out Jhin, the court merely considered him an "overzealous hastener of entropy". That means he has been working slowly, over time, on a much smaller scale than "devouring all of existence". He has not been swinging his scythe and wiping out multiverses.

My gaze swept over my cosmic brethren. Each forged from pure light, birthed from the primordial to shine eternal. I have crafted entire galaxies with them, willed wonders of the universe into existence by their side. Over the eons, we have danced together, then split apart, painting the inky fabric of space with delicate complexities. Yet I cannot deny the truth.

The Cosmic Court together has crafted galaxies. They have, over the eons, over time added similar celestial objects to the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Monarch's sense of judgement.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Ant Im sorry but Monarch does not know or understand what he is talking about

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You should have to prove its instant rather than the other way around. Assuming it is instant is a much greater assumption given that they are otherwise indicated to destroy universes galaxy and star system by star system.

This one

Destroying a 2-A realm is still an outlier if it is assumed to be done instantly by Thresh instead of just via feeding it to the true Dark Star.

Not really. Ive already given multiple statements from the lore and the characters themselves that show its instant, i do not have to prove a negative to show its not. Especially given the new lore of them having 3-C feats so immensely casual that its done literally by existing, thinking, and willing it.

You can cry outlier all you want but that doesnt make it correct. Four 2-A feats done with effort and now over a dozen 3-C feats done by literally existing does not mean we should completely invalidate the 2-A feats just because there are more 3-C feats.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Cosmic Court together has crafted galaxies. They have, over the eons, over time added similar celestial objects to the universe.

This alone proves you have no idea what youre talking about given the numerous statements and feats that they instantly create galaxies

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Monarch has looked through every piece of lore about the Event Horizon that he can find and understands quite well what he is talking about, and determined that all sources point towards this specific interpretation rather than Weekly's, which favours:

A) considering individual quotes about "devouring all of existence" and "a snap of the wrist and everything is gone" only in relation to similarly contextless quotes instead of acknowledging the greater context of the character's demonstrated methods. My brief look through the fallacy page seems to indicate that the Half Truth Fallacy best matches what Weekly is doing here.

B) arguing that because Lux states she can destroy galaxies with a thought and Jhin considering such things to be "pedestrian", these beings would actually be multiverse level if they really put effort into it or something along those lines. I believe the fallacy here is the classic No Limits Fallacy (e.g. just because baseline galaxy level clearly isn't something they struggle with, they must therefore be several infinite tiers gaps stronger).

C) bringing up pieces of evidence that I have already addressed and debunked and trying to use them as evidence. I believe this is argument ad nasuem.

 

[Rocker1189]

I agree with Weekly here I have online exams and coursework coming up so my activity has been low but we all the multiple tier 3 feats and statements and the 2-A feats over time doesnt mean the 2-A feats should be ignored, the worst I think they should be put at is 3-C, possibly 2-A.

also the Dark Stars see time as an outmodded tool and Jhin finds linear time hilarious, I dont see hwo that does not give them immeasurable speed.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The Cosmic Court together has crafted galaxies. They have, over the eons, over time added similar celestial objects to the universe.

This alone proves you have no idea what youre talking about given the numerous statements and feats that they instantly create galaxies

Strawman argument. Sure they can create the galaxies with a thought. I never said that they didn't create them instantly, I said they had created them together.

(In fact, I have already acknowledge that they can, so you are attacking an argument which doesn't exist. You are placing arguments in my mouth so you can knock them down. Shame on you)

But it took them eons to "paint the inky fabric of space with delicate complexities". There are many galaxies in the universe, and it took them eons to paint the universe with those many galaxies. They did not simply will the entire universe into existence. They were born from constellations (see the earlier quote from that story) and then created more constellations and galaxies over the eons.

 

[RegisNex1232]

No, you really haven't shown anything other than repeatedly insult Monarch's understanding of the lore in this thread and act like you're correct and that we must be stupid to not see what you're thinking. Even the quotes you've given after a long time don't really hold up to the standards being asked for in the OP.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not really. Ive already given multiple statements from the lore and the characters themselves that show its instant, i do not have to prove a negative to show its not. Especially given the new lore of them having 3-C feats so immensely casual that its done literally by existing, thinking, and willing it.

You can cry outlier all you want but that doesnt make it correct. Four 2-A feats done with effort and now over a dozen 3-C feats done by literally existing does not mean we should completely invalidate the 2-A feats just because there are more 3-C feats.

You have not done any of this. You have given quotes with absolutely no timeframe given, which is not the same as the timeframe being instant. I have given quotes indicating that they destroy - and with that most recent short story, create - the universe over time, adding or removing its stars and galaxies one at a time. So yes, you need to provide proof of an instant timeframe for universal destruction which overrides the demonstratably over-time timeframe which their methods have shown. Also, that is a No Limits Fallacy. Being able to destroy a galaxy by thinking does not upscale you to Low 1-C because destroying the galaxy wasn't difficult.

You have provided none of these 2-A feats. The only one, which I provided myself, is Thresh saying "we consumed it (the Void)". And given that all other context, including most notably the recently released short story, indicates that he did this by feeding the Void to the Dark Star, he would not scale to the feat.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

also the Dark Stars see time as an outmodded tool and Jhin finds linear time hilarious, I dont see hwo that does not give them immeasurable speed.

Provide quotes of this then, and it can potentially be accepted.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Provide quotes of this then, and it can potentially be accepted.

The fact that you claim to have read the blogs and all of the lore of the dark stars but dont know this is really troubling

 

[Rocker1189]

Provide quotes of this then, and it can potentially be accepted.

I would see if I can get them but it just so happened to be when the forums were deleted that this post went up..

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The fact that Monarch has only looked through the lore of Event Horizon to try to make a downgrade thread about them is proof alone that he does not know the full extent of what he is talking about. Monarch's interpretation is factually invalid as it is using incomplete data but Monarch refuses to listen to this fact.

A) The one who is using the Half Truth Fallacy is Monarch as he conveniently leaves out the parts where characters who have traveled through infinite universes and timelines and regularly describe the nature of the multiverse and its structure as a whole have stated that the Dark Stars are able to consume the entire multiverse, on top of bit feats like Cosmic characters being able to survive the creation of new universes and Dark Stars flat out saying they have brought about the destruction of multiple universes in the past (Said character in particular also blatantly states that he CAN destroy everything but just chooses not to out of personal preference).

B) What Monarch is doing here is textbook downplay, willingly choosing to ignore higher feats that were done with effort in favor of a handful of feats literally infinitely lower than they are consistently displayed and done passively for seemingly no reason other than personal preference.

C) Choosing to ignore pieces of evidence or take them out of context when they are meant to be taken as a set of supporting evidence and then claiming there is no evidence, you sir are the one using ad nauseum.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The fact that you claim to have read the blogs and all of the lore of the dark stars but dont know this is really troubling

The fact that you are attempting to redirect a perfectly reasonable request for quotes into an attack against me is troubling.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The fact that you are attempting to redirect a perfectly reasonable request for quotes into an attack against me is troubling.

When you claim to know everything about the characters in question but at the same time dont know basic information about them its justified

 

[Rocker1189]

you can look for it here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:WeeklyBattles/League_of_Legends:_Speed_Feat_Compilatio

though again the link is dead because they got rid of the forums, you can see it is accepted by assalt though.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But if you mean these quotes from the blog...

"The Void has taken so much from me, but I refuse to let it take everything. These moments, where kindness and humanity shine through, where innocence and trust extinguish fear—they fill me with hope that we can defeat the rivers of timeless poison that flow beneath the world."

Beyond the material plane, outside and somehow below it, lies the unknowable abyss. It is the realm of the Void, where no mortal or immortal creature may ever walk. It is not necessary to know how such a place ever came to be, nor why—only that it did. The Void is eternal. The Void consumes all. In that place, in the cold, endless dark, all is equal and empty. For timeless eons, there was purity in that fact. There was peace, if such a term could have any meaning there. Then, something changed. Not in the Void realm, but elsewhere. It was existence, it was... something, where before there had been nothing, and its mere presence scraped against the vast, cold, formless entities that drifted in the blackness. Before this, they had not even been fully aware of their own sentience, and yet now they knew that they could not tolerate the presence of this other place; this other-realm of mercurial, overwhelming creation.

"That radiant sight where it is said that timeless godlike beings dwell"

Then how about you take a look at the dictionary defintion of the word instead of immediately jumping to "time does not exist therefore immeasurable speed"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/timeless

"not restricted to a particular time or date"

"having no beginning or end : ETERNAL"

"not affected by time"

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/timeless

timeless adjective (NOT CHANGING) - Something that is timeless does not change as the years go past.

having a value that is not limited to a particular period but will last for ever:

We already know the void is eternal. We already know it has existed in a state of unchanging nature for eons. So defining those uses of "timeless" to mean "eternal" and "unchanging" is a lot more reasonable than assuming "there is no flow of time in the void".

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Except they flat uout state that there is no flow of time in the void

 

[Rocker1189]

I do have the quote from Jhin though: "Mortals and their linear time, they appreciate my art, they have no choice."

can be seen on the wiki

Thresh also has this:

"Time is but a cog in a dying machine."

which would support the blog above.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I do have the quote from Jhin though: "Mortals and their linear time, they appreciate my art, they have no choice."
can be seen on the wiki

Thresh also has this:

"Time is but a cog in a dying machine."

which would support the blog above.

Neither of those quotes mean infinite or immeasurable speed. Both are contextless and have zero elaboration on their meaning.

 

[Rocker1189]

Neither of those quotes mean infinite or immeasurable speed. Both are contextless and have zero elaboration on their meaning.

I mean the first one clearly means that the Dark Stars do not see time linearly which would support infinite speed at the very least and also again the quote from the blog. We have tried to wayback machine it to little success, so there is no other way I can link show it but those two quotes and what Assalt says in the blog should at the very least show that we did not make it up.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The fact that Monarch has only looked through the lore of Event Horizon to try to make a downgrade thread about them is proof alone that he does not know the full extent of what he is talking about. Monarch's interpretation is factually invalid as it is using incomplete data but Monarch refuses to listen to this fact.
A) The one who is using the Half Truth Fallacy is Monarch as he conveniently leaves out the parts where characters who have traveled through infinite universes and timelines and regularly describe the nature of the multiverse and its structure as a whole have stated that the Dark Stars are able to consume the entire multiverse, on top of bit feats like Cosmic characters being able to survive the creation of new universes and Dark Stars flat out saying they have brought about the destruction of multiple universes in the past (Said character in particular also blatantly states that he CAN destroy everything but just chooses not to out of personal preference).

B) What Monarch is doing here is textbook downplay, willingly choosing to ignore higher feats that were done with effort in favor of a handful of feats literally infinitely lower than they are consistently displayed and done passively for seemingly no reason other than personal preference.

C) Choosing to ignore pieces of evidence or take them out of context when they are meant to be taken as a set of supporting evidence and then claiming there is no evidence, you sir are the one using ad nauseum.

A) Already debunked, debunked, debunked, debunked. Argument ad naseum

B) These "higher feats" are consistent only in that is it something that has happened before. But you ignore the method of how it was done in favour of seeing a handful of "destroy everything" quotes and immediately assuming it to be done instantly and under their own power, rather than the demonstratably

C) I haven't ignored any pieces of evidence. I've looked at them, considered them, seen if they fit into the lore-indicated interpretation, and realised that they do, and thus added them to my argument. You are the one ignoring these peices of evidence, directly claiming that the opposite of what is shown.

Also, I can't make this clear enough, but I'll put it in bold and italics anyway.

You have not brought anything new to the table. Everything you say is debunked points that fly in the face of what the lore clearly establishes, repeated over and over and over. So if you want to argue against me, bring something new to the table that demonstrates why I am incorrect rather than constantly falling back to the same debunked points that I have already countered.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Neither of those quotes mean infinite or immeasurable speed. Both are contextless and have zero elaboration on their meaning.

I mean the first one clearly means that the Dark Stars do not see time linearly which would support infinite speed at the very least and also again we the quote from the blog.

Not seeing time linearly does not mean moving through time non-linearly.

And I already posted a comment showing how all the uses of "timeless" in the quotes from the blog are better attributed to their actual dictionary definitions rather than the vs battle idea of "timeless" automatically meaning "literally lacking a flow of time".

 

[Rocker1189]

Not seeing time linearly does not mean moving through time' non-linearly.

And I already posted a comment showing how all the uses of "timeless" in the quotes from the blog are better attributed to their actual dictionary definitions rather than the vs battle idea of "timeless" automatically meaning "literally lacking a flow of time".

I dont get it..none of those quotes are about timelessness, they are about linear time. and I added to that comment and you still have not talked about the blog...I am goin gto be honest, I think that a lot of other verses have to be looked at with the way some thing are being taken here.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I dont get it..none of those quotes are about timelessness, they are about linear time. and I added to that comment and you still have not talked about the blog...I am goin gto be honest, I think that a lot of other verses have to be looked at with the way some thing are being taken here.

That's irrelevant to the thread though? Other verses aren't being discussed here, and if you really care about them then you can make a thread for them. It's not like people have to be moving through time non-linearly just because they can perceive it that way.