LOL Dark Star / Cosmic Court Downgrade

[Rocker1189]

He also refers to himself in the singular plenty of times, so really its an either or situation. But given that the rest of the lore has the corruptants / dark cosmics explicity moving through space destroying celestial objects one by one, and Thresh's own lore has him guiding the Dark Star through space and feeding celestial objects to it, we know how he operates, and its more reasonable to assume he's continuing to operate in this way together with the Dark Star.

which is something that Rhaast lacks as he is not using the dark star for anything, in fact he wants to thake the Dark Star from thresh proving that his quote is what he did without the Dark star. which is another thing. The dark star is something that we know exists out side of space and time and reality altogether this is clearly immeasurable in speed. Thresh and Lux at the very least are capable of keeping up with it and Kassadin himself exists outside of the universe as he watches it get destroyed and remade:

Born before the kindling of the stars, Kassadi stands alone in space's vast void. He watches over all things, a sentinel awaiting the end of this universe… and the beginning of the next.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642595064396120086/684519296273350689/unknown.png

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

which is something that Rhaast lacks as he is not using the dark star for anything, in fact he wants to thake the Dark Star from thresh proving that his quote is what he did without the Dark star. which is another thing. The dark star is something that we know exists out side of space and time and reality altogether this is clearly immeasurable in speed. Thresh and Lux at the very least are capable of keeping up with it and Kassadin himself exists outside of the universe as he watches it get destroyed and remade:

Born before the kindling of the stars, Kassadi stands alone in space's vast void. He watches over all things, a sentinel awaiting the end of this universe… and the beginning of the next.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642595064396120086/684519296273350689/unknown.png

Rhaast's currentl lacks it sure, but he definitely wants it: "The Dark Star is mine Thresh! Only Rhaast is worthy." - on killing Dark Star Thresh, the current guider of the Dark Star.

His quotes also state that he wants to destroy reality.

"It turns out the scythe was evil and wants to annihilate all reality. Who could've guessed?"

"I will wash this universe clean!"

So he clearly whats to do it. But if he could just wipe it all out instantly then why hasn't he done so? Probably because he needs to let the Dark Star and the rest of his fellow corruptants in through the Ora Gate, as he has done with those countless realities with the shattered entrails.

This has been mentioned before, but Dark Lux thinking she can become the Dark Star's master doesn't necessarily mean she can. Or if it does, it doesn't mean she's equal to it in power or speed. Also, I don't think its quite the right assumption that Thresh can keep up with the Dark Star:

"Since the Harbinger's appearance, the Dark Star grows in strength." Ashe glided between us, looking each of us in the eyes as she passed. "Where we build, he guides the Dark Star to consume.

The Dark Star is a mindless hungry void. Thresh is just showing it where to go, pulling on its leash. He's not running around after it keeping up with it. It's just drifting around until he points out the next juicy star to munch on. Also, while ca exist outside the universe, that doesn't mean its speed when somewhere without time is the same as somewhere with time. There was an entire thread done on why simply being somewhere without time or space doesn't automatically mean immeasurable speed.

Kassadin being alone in space's vast void doesn't mean he's immeasurable. It's saying space after all, he's still in the universe.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Jhin is even more of a herald. He is closer to the Dark Star than Thresh. Lux follows the same path. Rhaast is just a weapon/experiment from the Dark Star. Corruptants/Corrupted see him as weird/"orphaned".

Thresh is the Harbinger of the Dark Star. Jhin...? I haven't seen any quotes indicating he had that same connection to the Dark Star that Lux did.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Embryo has 0 similarities with Dark Star entities and as you stated yourself supporting feats which I have put up with with statements from Jhin and thresh.

Except Rhaast is not the herald of the Dark star, Thresh is and the way Rhaasts describes it is far more personal.

cue the "I thought you were going off"

The thing is, simply existing and moving outside space-time no longer qualifies for immeasurable speed unless there is more author explanation on how it means that. And simply seeing time non-linearly doesn't mean immeasurable speed.

I should also point out, Rhaast doesn't state that he's destroyed realities in that quote, and many of the Dark Stars and Cosmic Court alike see various celestial objects as reality. Leaving the "entrails" shattering in his wake makes a lot of sense to be referring to the literal "guts", the "inside" of these realities, the stars and planets he's shattered.

 

[Alonik]

Sorry, i was not cleary in everything, i had type a huge text but only that part have send, that might have been a bug from Fandom. I Agree with you @Monarch Laciel in some pieces, and i disagree with you in the part of speed, but i understand now.

About the pieces;

• Dark Scythe: you're sounds reliable here by questioning the syntax of the phrase, and for me that's fine. However thresh even without his Scythe, just by looking into a realm bigger than the universe/multiverse, consumed it
• Dark Stars Scallings: The Darkstars that are not Thresh, they're just heralds from the same, they should not have the same strength has Thresh himself.

Guys, i'm a PBE active board member, the board was not delet, however Riot have some issues with organizations and you guys who play this game know that they only care with one thing: Develop skins.

Here in brazil the board's still working, it should be that others board's are not working because of their new Login System, soon we will have the board's again. If you have a account on pbe, on your profile have the option of "board profile" you will be redirect for the main page of the site as well.

continuing the points...

• Ezreal line: League of legends have a deep lore, and a massive problems with organize the lore of the site, with interactions, and the lore in the collection of the game. But if it help, here in Thresh development it's the same, he is a guy created to consume the entire multiverse for himself.
  • here is the link; "Thresh's black hole is a separate entity he's feeding, and his goal is to end all of existence..." you can read the whole excerpt in the site.

The rest i agree with everything, you made a CRT that make senses, i always had a problem with every dark stars and the other cosmic scalling to Thresh. However i disagree with Thresh statements being outlier. As was stated here, Thresh always in that skin calls him in third person. Tbh the entity of the dark star is just a item for Thresh and you can see this in that nexus link, the real villain and who fed on the end of the existence is Thresh himself;

Thresh's black hole is a separate entity he's feeding, and his goal is to end all of existence—not just to be a dick, but so he can die, too. For him, that moment when all of eternity is fed into the black hole is like rapture

I hope that don't bug now

 

[Alonik]

About Jhin, he is no closer than the Dark Star than Thresh. The black hole is the Dark Star itself and it is just a tool for Thresh. If everyone read @Monarch Laciel's OP, the connection of Jhin with the Dark Star, is that the Darkstar is making ilusions with his mind about the dark star own existence, and he always want to push a fight with Thresh, and claim himself with the one who have the canvas of the dark star.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Thresh didn't consume the void "simply by looking in". That's not what that quote means.

The dark star is also definitely more than simply an item for Thresh, it's very clearly above him. And feeding all of existence to it doesn't mean he's feeding all of existence to it at once.

But if I get what you are saying, you think the other dark stars should not be as powerful as thresh? Why not?

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached some sort of agreement yet?

Anyway, Zark is correct. We are all under a great deal of real world pressure right now, with the threat of the Coronavirus and a possible global depression, but let's please try use this wiki as some sort of refuge from all of that. It is not the right environment to get upset at or hostile to each other.

 

[VoidGoji]

@Alonik, Jhin interactions say otherwise. Corruptants like Thresh are inferior to him.

 

[Alonik]

@SchroKatze Jhin claiming himself above someone is nothing, after all he is a narcisist.

 

[VoidGoji]

considering Lux's story basically said that his awakening alone turned stars into black holes?


anyways, Jhin mentions that linear time isn't something applying to them.

"Mortals and their linear time, they appreciate my art, they have no choice."

and the fact that he only "erases over time" because its art, implying he can do it instantaneously.

''Why erase everything at once, when it can be savored."

Galaxy level feat at the very least:

"Destroying galaxies is a pedestrian interpretation, I paint upon the canvas of eternity."

 

[Alonik]

Good. I didn't remembered this quote "why erase everything at once" from Jhin. Thresh and him should be in the same current level, since Jhin can erase everything when he wants, but he prefers to savor it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

considering Lux's story basically said that his awakening alone turned stars into black holes?

... what? That's not what her story says at all. He turned evil and then he started going around turning stars to black holes. Him turning evil didn't turn the stars to black holes automatically

and the fact that he only "erases over time" because its art, implying he can do it instantaneously.

''Why erase everything at once, when it can be savored."

I already pointed out that even if Jhin wants to savour it, there are many other Dark Stars who have no reason to take their time If they are capable of destroying everything instantly, yet do anyway.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, is there any reason he is refering to the Void in that quote, he could pretty much be talking about the galaxies, which every other DS destroy with a thought, while he likes to do it slowly because it's "art"

 

[Alonik]

Because destroying galaxies is a pedestrian interpretation.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

But that's just him saying calling it destroying galaxies is a crude way of saying it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, Jhin using flowery language clearly isn't the same as him being a 5D being with power to destroy the multiverse with a thought.

 

[Alonik]

@DragonEmperor23 yeah, it is saying that if you interpret that he only destroy galaxies, you have a pedestrian interpretation.

 

[Alonik]

@XDragnoir i never said that, i was replying your argue of him calling galaxies as everything.

Also, is there any reason he is refering to the Void in that quote, he could pretty much be talking about the galaxies, which every other DS destroy with a thought, while he likes to do it slowly because it's "art"

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@DragonEmperor23 yeah, it is saying that if you interpret that he only destroy galaxies, you have a pedestrian interpretation.

What? He's not saying something like "you think I just destroy galaxies but I can do so much more".

Look at the definitions of interpretation. The one of them is "a stylistic representation of a creative work or dramatic role". Look at the definition of pedestrain. "lacking inspiration or excitement; dull."He's just saying that simply destroying galaxies is a dull and uninspired style and he has more artistic things to do.

Alternatively he's saying something along the lines of "you call what I'm doing "destroying galaxies" but that's an uninspired way to think of it, really I'm painting art", but that still doesn't mean he can destroy more than galaxies.

 

[XDragnoir]

Ent├úo, se esse "everything at once" que ele fala n├úo s├úo apenas gal├íxias, o que é ent├úo? O Vazio? Sem nenhum contesto adicional o mais prov├ível é que ele esteja falando das gal├íxias, que outros campe├Áes destroem com um pensamento, mas ele faz isso devagar pra apreciar a arte, e se for o Vazio, isso d├í um total de 2 ou 3 feitos tier 1, contra 7 ou 8 tier 4/3.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No reason to assume Jhin is talking about the Void to begin with in that quote.

It's especially notable that it is Thresh saying "we consumed the void", because Thresh is the one guiding around the Dark Star god and feeding things to it. Feeding the Void to it wouldn't even scale to him.

 

[Alonik]

His sentence does not speak of anything in pluperfect; he disagrees with a misinterpretation of what he is doing in the present.

 

[Alonik]

@XDragnoir

In the others speachs of Jhin he talk about everything (creation).

1. The universe will end. But i... will make it wonderous.
2. Why erase everythimg at once when it can be savored?
3. MM. My art trancends creation.
4. i will connect you to everything.

Plus, in the first encounter with Galaxy Slayer Zed, e say that zed destroying galaxies is just something smallest to the power he is part.

Also, in none moment is said that the tier 4/3 is the full power of jhin.

@Monarch Laciel

Thresh feeds on its own entity, and it is a tool of its own.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I will unsubscribe this as it's flooding my notifications, feel free to ask me if you need something to be calculated regarding this.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That is one possible intepretation of what he is saying, yes. What I want to make clear is that just because he sees himself as doing something more artistic than just "destroying galaxies" doesn't mean what he is doing is several tiers greater than destroying galaxies.

 

[Alonik]

His art is erasure the creation (multiverse) which are called as everything, whole existence or all the existence. You can see these type of text calling multiverse like these in every multiversal context in league of legends. Is the way of the writers to describe the multiverse, without saying "multiverse" every time.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The Dark Star is not Thresh's tool, it is his god. He carries it around in his animations because he is feeding it.

Jhin saying his art transcending creation is meaningless, its just him being all arrogant about it. Connecting to everything isn't even indicative of anything. The universe ending is something that all Dark Stars want to accomplish so Jhin saying the universe will end but he'll make it look fancy as it ends doesn't mean he possesses the power to end the it himself. And "everything" might mean multiverse in a multiversal context, but Jhin's quotes are not in a multiversal context.

This is not what you described Jhin as saying. He calls "killing galaxies" derivative, which is simply another word for pedestrian. He's saying that its boring, uninspired, cliche. "Allow me to make you part of something greater" just means making him part of oblivion, erasing him.

"Also, in none moment is said that the tier 4/3 is the full power of jhin"

This is a No Limits Fallacy. Just because nothing says it is his limit doesn't mean you can extrapolate his power to far greater. He would be rated as "at least Galaxy level" at best based on that.

 

[Ercosore]

The op makes sense to me, I agree with the downgrade.

 

[Alonik]

@Monarch Laciel The Dark Star is not Thresh's tool, it is his god. He carries it around in his animations because he is feeding it.

Well in the game-client is said that his lantern is his god, however in the skin creation, and in-game interaction something different is said.

Developing Dark Star Thresh;

1. Dark Star Thresh, an ancient space lord who manipulates the laws of time and gravity while collecting his victims' souls in a black hole.
2. Thresh's black hole is a separate entity he's feeding, and his goal is to end all of existence—not just to be a dick, but so he can die, too. For him, that moment when all of eternity is fed into the black hole is like rapture

The Dark Star is part of the universe, the goal of thresh is the real void, that he is.

1. Dark Star being part of the universe; For example, when the Sinister Star returns to base, he throws his hook through a portal and pulls himself towards the unknown entity it connects with. But, instead of using an existing portal, he transforms his black hole into a private one, demonstrating his complete command of the universe.

I had more blatant things, but the boards is current disable, i'll ask for deep context in writer's twitter. And hope for them to answer anything.

And "everything" might mean multiverse in a multiversal context, but Jhin's quotes are not in a multiversal context.

Jhin quotes are multiversal in range.

This is not what you described Jhin as saying. He calls "killing galaxies" derivative, which is simply another word for pedestrian. He's saying that its boring, uninspired, cliche. "Allow me to make you part of something greater" just means making him part of oblivion, erasing him.

This is just your personal interpratation. Since Jhin would have no reason to ask to erase someone or something, he just erase it without ask it. But he ask for Zed being a part of something greater than only destroying galaxies.

This is a No Limits Fallacy. Just because nothing says it is his limit doesn't mean you can extrapolate his power to far greater. He would be rated as "at least Galaxy level" at best based on that.

You're right, but my comments doesn't only says "it was never stated he is only multi galaxy" rather than that, i brought blatant scans which say that understand his destruction only with multi galaxy is a error.

i'll sleep now, if you answer that, tomorrow i'll be back

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'll be blunt.

None of the evidence you've given there matches up with your conclusions. For example transforming his black hole into a private one does in no way demonstrate his "complete command of the universe", nor does Jhin acknowledging this Xayah is from another universe mean when he says "everything" he means all of existence.

"Allow me to make you part of something greater" isn't Jhin asking if he can erase you, he's going to do it anyway. It's just him being faux polite as he's about to murder you, just like he always is.

And if you accept that Thresh wants to end all of existence so he can die and be at peace in oblivion, while you still believe he can just just wipe out all of existence with a swing of his scythe, then why hasn't he done that

 

[Alonik]

Wait, i never said that thresh had "command of the universe" as my conclusion of anything, this is in the skin development of Dark Star Thresh, i just copy and pasted here.

About jhin, that's not his Modus Operandi, he was talking about Zed's feat about killing galaxies. If you saw someone who is making your job in a smalle scale, and you see prodigy in that person, you will make a invitation for this person to participate for something greater who is your job with you. The Dark Star heralds do that, they invite anyone who can corrupt.

Monarch here you did a strawman, i was in agree with you that thresh couldn't wipe the universe one hit of the scythe. I agree with you so much, that the Black Star game-mode, is about Thresh making the singularity so that the singularity swallows the whole existence.

However what is the tier of someone who destroy a infinite multiverse, in hm... let say 100,000 years?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Ok lets assume that Jhin is in fact offering Zed a job position, and he is inviting him to join him in a much greater task than just killing galaxies. What that task is...? Killing the universe. Ok sure, I buy that. But... how? And how long will it take?

If it is the Dark Star that consumed the infinite multiverse, it scales only to the Dark Star, not to Thresh.

And if it is Thresh who destroyed it, it is an outlier against all other feats shown by corruptants and the cosmics.

 

[Alonik]

About jhin, idk, he said he can do it in any time.

The dark star is just a tool, a black hole that Thresh comands to pull the things inside, and the feat scales for Thresh as well, since the dark star is not the thing who destroy the multiverse, is the thing where is it placed. With his hook Thresh throw the infinite multiverse in a time that we don't know, but by being a infinite multiverse still remains the same tier.

Thresh is not corrupt, he is the guy who born to do that, he was the guy who corrupt everyone and put everyone else to corrupt the others. If you se the link about Thresh Dark Star development, you'll see that he is the guy behind the Dark Star, unlike the corruptants that he literally call they as his heralds in interactions.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Jhin says a vague statement that could be referring to destroying many different things, and nothing says he is referring to all of existence over a much more reasonable assumption.

The Dark Star is one of the most powerful beings in League of Legends, and is Thresh's god. It is not a tool for him. Thresh being "ranked" higher in the corruptant hierarchy than others does not mean that he is superior to the Dark Star itself.

And development lore - literally the ideas they had for the guy when he was in development - do not override the actual lore given to us since. In fact, it is the opposite. Something that shows up only as a concept in development but is contradicted by the primary lore would be what is overrided. To say otherwise is to say that characters should be given profiles based on what their author's original idea for them was rather than what was actually published.

 

[Alonik]

Jhin is refering the universe;

1. The curtain rises on a young and vibrant universe. An audience... Worthy of my talent.
2. I must erase everything. The audience demands it.

Where is said that is not a tool for thresh? Is literally his black hole is part of the universe, while thresh is not, he is beyond that. I had send link talking about that, the dark star is the black hole, a black hole different. And wait, dark star is not one of the most powerful beings in league of legends, dark star in every appearence is just the black hole where Thresh put his destruction, the only feat of the dark star is just being a black hole that can handle with the multiversal matter and other concepts that Thresh put inside.

The lore about thresh was not in development in the entire development time, is just the process of the skin that was. If you read the link that i had send to you rather than just throw speculation, you'll see that Thresh story remain the same, and was in development only during a week, after that they have concluded thresh plot. So they throw details about the lore when they where explaining about the dark star that thresh uses, and his veil which are a galaxy.

 

[Alonik]

Furthermore, in the same evidence you use to argue against what i said. It is said that Thresh will become one with the Black Star in the end, this is not just a matter of having a higher "rating". He's putting together a gun to become one with it, when that gun transcend every duality of the multiverse. Only to him remain in this absence of everything.

 

[Alonik]

So in the last hour i spent my time to rewatch and reread about the dark stars, and read the new skins story and interactions.

In the new Lux's Lore, the points of time-frame of the dark star that @Monarch Laciel pointed out is more blatant than before. If you read the lore, you i'll see that Ashe claims that the Dark Star has been growing since a long time, and the cosmic court watched that.

After seeing the history and interactions of Jhin, Lux, and Kayn, the question about the Dark Star being just a weapon is even more blatant. These three beings have only a single discuss: Steal the Dark Star from Thresh [1], and Become the new Master of the Dark Star. Which means that the Dark Star is just a tool. as i had said before. The main question here is that these three act every time in tone of disrespect against Thresh, when they try to steal the Dark Star from Thresh to use that weapon. Besides, of course that Kayn, in some point of the history is an loyal Thresh's servant.

And the Dark Star when is solo without Thresh, she become complete useless to the point that she can be sealed in a fixed point of space, according to Lux.

 

[Antvasima]

Monarch seems to make sense to me, but I am not the best person to ask.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I will not even try. Last time I tried I ended up unable to really help because my lack of knowledge on the verse, and I still don't understand why magical girl Zoe is equal to her OG self when it was agreed on that characters can be weaker despite their power set in-game being the same.

I'll just sit back and watch this.