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Logan Paul Profile Deletion (Potentially the WWE-verse with it)

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Pikaman said:
I just logged in, if we are discussing deleting WWE as a verse I want involved. I probably can’t talk tonight but I am BEGGING the people here to hold off on any potential decisions being made (I haven’t even had time to read this thread)
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I will follow through, brother
 
As for Logan Paul, I think he should stay but I’m not massively invested in the profile’s survival. I don’t think he breaks any rules but it’s very borderline so I have no issue with deletion, even if I technically oppose it (And if it’s a question of deleting the profile to save the verse I would do it in a heartbeat)
 
Pikaman said:
As for Logan Paul, I think he should stay but I’m not massively invested in the profile’s survival. I don’t think he breaks any rules but it’s very borderline so I have no issue with deletion, even if I technically oppose it (And if it’s a question of deleting the profile to save the verse I would do it in a heartbeat)
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While this isn't about bargaining, and moreso about deciding where site policy falls, the consensus seems divisive over whether WWE ought to stay (though leaning slightly, currently, in favor of deletion) and strongly in favor of deletion of Logan Paul. I find that latter bit to be a strange thing, but I realize some people are voting on the basis of the man being a problematic specific case rather than the greater issue of site policy.
 
Yeah, Logan’s circumstances have always been very distinct from an average WWE character, I’m cool with his deletion, but to try and liken him to other characters is weird for a number of reasons
 
Also, if the verse does get deleted (as much as I think that is a mind bogglingly poor decision), could the source codes of all the associated profiles be dropped into either me or Random’s sandboxes?
 
That is generally standard, yes. The idea being that it would then be acceptable to host elsewhere, be it a sister wiki or one of the less savory off-sites.
 
Kill: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx (Logan, leaning towards it for WWE as a whole), Damage3245

Keep: Qawsedf234 (Including Logan Paul), Tllmbrg, Agnaa, LephyrTheRevanchist, KingTempest (Neutral on Logan)

Neutral/Don't Care: ByAsura. Antvasima (Leaning towards keep WWE)

This is taking into account Ant's most recent post where he changed his stance (And yes I copy and pasted Bambu's previous tally for convenience, bite me)
It actually looks relatively even, though arguably slightly in favor of WWE depending on how we count it as when people say they are leaning a certain way. Unless I'm counting wrong, on the subject of WWE as a whole, that's 2 people 100% for WWE's deletion, and 3 people with Full Voting right's 100% for keeping (Two people who don't have as high of Voting Rights also supporting keeping it), with one person each leaning toward's Keeping or deleting (You may please correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to keep a updated track on the vote's and opinion's)

Though I know his time is likely limited, and his response is arguably predictable, getting a official vote from DT (And any other Staff that have commented but aren't counted as having given Official Vote's) doesn't sound like a bad idea
 
"Kill" was mainly meant to show those in favor of removing Paul, but fair enough.

Two admins and a thread mod vote generally in favor of deleting WWE. One admin and two thread mods vote in favor of keeping. I dislike pulling rank here, but it doesn't really matter- as I said, the matter is divisive- but by that math what I said was right. It is slightly in favor of WWE deletion.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Two admins and a thread mod vote generally in favor of deleting WWE. One admin and two thread mods vote in favor of keeping. I dislike pulling rank here, but it doesn't really matter- as I said, the matter is divisive- but by that math what I said was right. It is slightly in favor of WWE deletion.
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I don't know if it works like that
 
Mr._Bambu said:
"Do we consider WWE, a verse comprised solely of stage cameos and shownames,
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A butchering of the verse’s status entirely. WWE has an established series of plots, narratives, sagas and storylines, with numerous characters with their own fictional premises and backstories. They’re hardly “shownames”


Mr._Bambu said:
WWE is not equal to movies, for sure. Vin Diesel's stage persona is not Dominic Toretto, Tom Holland's stage persona is not Spiderman- these are characters they are hired to play. It is not equivalent to the Undertaker, which is just Mark William Callaway.
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Spider-Man is a web-slinging vigilante superhero played by Tom Holland in the MCU

The Undertaker is the undead supernatural brother of Kane (a literal demon) played by Mark William Callaway

Mark William Callaway was an actor hired to play the part of The Undertaker
Tom Holland is an actor hired to play the part of Spider-Man

They are hardly 1:1, but saying the two are complete opposites and that The Undertaker is not a “character” is odd.


Mr._Bambu said:
Are you intentionally linking me to a profile showing a real person with their real information as a counter argument to them not just being real people assuming stage personas lmao

"Ah yes, my favorite totally fictional character, Windham Lawrence Rotunda, born May 23, 1987, also known as Bray Wyatt after he signed a contract with definitely-not real-world organization WWE"
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^ For the record I agree with this point, these summaries are copy pasted from Wikipedia im pretty sure, they suck, they completely fail to describe what the profiles actually are, and I have been meaning to get around to their deletion since the verse’s inception. Scrap them and replace them with something that describes the actual character, not the actor.


Mr._Bambu said:
WWE profiles are an embarrassment for the wiki and its policies, little else.
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You don’t like the verse and that’s fair, there’s always been people who oppose this verse existing but “an embarrassment” is just a joke of a comment to make.


Mr._Bambu said:
though plays also aren't really as good and pure a comparison as other personas- YouTubers are a great choice. Individuals like Markiplier and Jacksepticeye absolutely integrate faux supernatural elements into their routines (the whole Darkiplier and Anti shit from ages past), we would not allow a profile for them.
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WWE is much closer to theatre than YouTubers. As for “supernatural” elements not inherently guaranteeing validity, I agree, but the situation isn’t the same between the likes of Anti-YouTubers and WWE characters. Those elements do not grant validity of profiles because those characters are inherently tied to regular people. Markiplier is just himself, and Darkiplier is the fictional alter ego of Markiplier, a regular dude. Markiplier isn’t a character, just a name. There’s nothing more to it, whereas there is much, MUCH more to the likes of The Undertaker, who’s entire lore, backstory, personality has ZERO ties to Mark William Callaway. If Darkiplier was a unique character with no lore involving real life people with no distinction then he’d be much more likely to be fine than in reality.
Mr._Bambu said:
James Bond is a character. He is James Bond regardless of who portrays him.
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And The Fiend is a character. Mark Windham Rotunda has played The Fiend as long as the character existed, but someone else could pick up that mask and lantern and play the exact same CHARACTER.


DemonicDude said:
WWE At 8:44 directly mentions he appears on Daily show
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Psssst you forgot the part where John notes he’s breaking the fourth wall
DemonicDude said:
HECK This verse made movie star Johnny Knoxville a Freaking movie star part of Wrestling PPV multiple times.
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Celebrity cameo, happens in Family Guy, The Simpsons, and countless other verses


DemonicDude said:
And WWE ACTIVELY USES Hollywood

The Rock (Dwayne Johson) appeared in RED NOTICE
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Horrible point, The Rock and Dwayne Johnson are different things, and he isn’t even contracted to WWE afaik, nor was he at the time of this movies release
Antvasima said:
without any 4th wall to start with.
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there IS a 4th wall in wrestling, its… different (to the point it has its own name) but kayfabe is the distinction between real and fake you are looking for. In the same way we don’t punish verses for breaking the 4th wall, non-kayfabe complying segments are little evidence WWE as a whole is non-fictional (or not fictional enough, at least)

That is far from all I have to say on the matter, but I’ve rushed that out because it’s late and I want to establish my say on this matter. Delete Logan Paul but Christ the WWE verse has clear distinctions
 
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I currently have neither the time or energy to invest into vs debating anymore, and it has been that way for months. I will debate points where I can but I do not have the countless hours with nothing to do but debate I did a year ago, nor do I think the absurd amount of time I spent on this website in the past was healthy for me. I strongly, STRONGLY advocate against this verse’s deletion, but will not be monitoring this thread 24/7 to explain why. Grab my attention on discord if things look shaky, but unless the situation is dire for the verse’s survival my next big post tomorrow may well be my last on this matter.

This verse does not warrant deletion.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
"Kill" was mainly meant to show those in favor of removing Paul, but fair enough.

Two admins and a thread mod vote generally in favor of deleting WWE. One admin and two thread mods vote in favor of keeping. I dislike pulling rank here, but it doesn't really matter- as I said, the matter is divisive- but by that math what I said was right. It is slightly in favor of WWE deletion.
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The content aproval rules say nothing on rank, for what i see all of them have the same evaluation rights
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Kill: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx (Logan, leaning towards it for WWE as a whole), Damage3245

Keep: Qawsedf234 (Including Logan Paul), Tllmbrg, Agnaa, LephyrTheRevanchist, KingTempest (Neutral on Logan)

Neutral/Don't Care: ByAsura. Antvasima (Leaning towards keep WWE)

This is taking into account Ant's most recent post where he changed his stance (And yes I copy and pasted Bambu's previous tally for convenience, bite me)
It actually looks relatively even, though arguably slightly in favor of WWE depending on how we count it as when people say they are leaning a certain way. Unless I'm counting wrong, on the subject of WWE as a whole, that's 2 people 100% for WWE's deletion, and 3 people with Full Voting right's 100% for keeping (Two people who don't have as high of Voting Rights also supporting keeping it), with one person each leaning toward's Keeping or deleting (You may please correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to keep a updated track on the vote's and opinion's)

Though I know his time is likely limited, and his response is arguably predictable, getting a official vote from DT (And any other Staff that have commented but aren't counted as having given Official Vote's) doesn't sound like a bad idea
Click to expand...
Based on this, would it be wrong for me to assume that the majority of staff are leaning towards keeping the verse, but are neutral in deleting Logan Paul?
 
omegabronic said:
The content aproval rules say nothing on rank, for what i see all of them have the same evaluation rights
Click to expand...
Actually they do.

The concluding evaluations must be handled by Thread Moderators, Administrators, and Bureaucrats, who should make an effort to base their evaluations on valid arguments, not personal opinions.
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- Discussion Rules

It's something I disagree with, but it is the rule nonetheless.
 
I'm going to submit one (1) response to you, Pika, since while you seem more sensible than your peers, the fact is that a large amount of WWE's supporters have turned this less into an evaluation matter and more into a "can we try to bully a staff member into agreeing with us" matter- a fact that some of them have tried to rectify, privately, and some haven't. It's no fault of your own that I'm unwilling to commit further time, is what I'm trying to say, but unwilling I remain.

A butchering of the verse’s status entirely. WWE has an established series of plots, narratives, sagas and storylines, with numerous characters with their own fictional premises and backstories. They’re hardly “shownames”
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Improv, as a concept, actually has all of these things, too. The line is drawn, as it has been drawn by others, at where we consider a verse entirely fictional- WWE, I feel, falls to the wrong side of that line. They're shownames.

Spider-Man is a web-slinging vigilante superhero played by Tom Holland in the MCU

The Undertaker is the undead supernatural brother of Kane (a literal demon) played by Mark William Callaway

Mark William Callaway was an actor hired to play the part of The Undertaker
Tom Holland is an actor hired to play the part of Spider-Man

They are hardly 1:1, but saying the two are complete opposites and that The Undertaker is not a “character” is odd.
Click to expand...
Something of interest I found when I looked it up. Do you know that it was only in 1989 that Vince McMahon admitted the game was not real? Not that anything was changed by that point, he just testified that it was, indeed, fake. It's the same year the Undertaker joined, but that's not a particularly important point. Up until well after the 2000s, there was still public discourse over it was or was not real- I was never much of a WWE guy but I knew adults who would debate it.

Do you think Marvel Comics could have reasonably presented their comic books and movies as real things?

The Undertaker is Mark Calaway given some flair. Kane is Glenn Jacobs given some flair. Had this discussion been back in 1980s, the WWE themselves would have told you that despite adding a personal mythos, it was all very real. Mark Calaway is the Undertaker- the two are 1:1, or at least are close enough to blur the line and make it far too questionable. Spider-Man isn't Tom Holland or Tobey Maguire or any other actor.

^ For the record I agree with this point, these summaries are copy pasted from Wikipedia im pretty sure, they suck, they completely fail to describe what the profiles actually are, and I have been meaning to get around to their deletion since the verse’s inception. Scrap them and replace them with something that describes the actual character, not the actor.
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I'd like it known that Wikipedia portraying the individuals as being 1:1 with their wrestling personas ought to be a pretty good indicator of the more public view, disconnected from this case.

You don’t like the verse and that’s fair, there’s always been people who oppose this verse existing but “an embarrassment” is just a joke of a comment to make.
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I don't have any particular malice or distaste towards the verse off-site. I'm not a sports guy, I wouldn't watch it, but it's there. I used to reference Rey Mysterio a lot, because it was funny.

I don't like the verse being on VS Battles Wiki.

I'm also inclined to not care what is and isn't labeled as a "joke" at this point- you can only insult me so much before it loses its effectiveness.

WWE is much closer to theatre than YouTubers. As for “supernatural” elements not inherently guaranteeing validity, I agree, but the situation isn’t the same between the likes of Anti-YouTubers and WWE characters. Those elements do not grant validity of profiles because those characters are inherently tied to regular people. Markiplier is just himself, and Darkiplier is the fictional alter ego of Markiplier, a regular dude. Markiplier isn’t a character, just a name. There’s nothing more to it, whereas there is much, MUCH more to the likes of The Undertaker, who’s entire lore, backstory, personality has ZERO ties to Mark William Callaway. If Darkiplier was a unique character with no lore involving real life people with no distinction then he’d be much more likely to be fine than in reality.
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I disagree, unless we were to take improv theatre into account, since wrestlers do and have taken part into a great deal of theatre- even then, improv has such a small disconnect from a bit like King of the Squirrels that I think the point poor in the making. Nobody over the age of 14 is taking Sweeney Todd as a real event. There are grown ass men who take WWE as real- not the lore, but the combat.

I do note that you agree Markiplier is just... the guy, not a fictional entity, since Markiplier himself has quite a lot of improv'd lore given to the name- such as, of course, the Darkiplier thing.

And The Fiend is a character. Mark Windham Rotunda has played The Fiend as long as the character existed, but someone else could pick up that mask and lantern and play the exact same CHARACTER.
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Have they? Asking earnestly, has anyone picked up the moniker of another wrestler? When Austin Theory goes, will another person become Austin Theory? When a Wrestler dies, are they, in the story, written off as died in battle against X or Y? I'm genuinely curious.

Like I said: I appreciate that you put more effort into this response than normal, and I don't think y'all are entirely unreasonable in your wishes, but the verse falls far past being entirely fictional, with real fights being documented and real people being the profiles.

WWE is unfit by our current standards and ought to go. Probably my last remark on this thread. Y'all have a good one.
 
TheMassivlyUnkn0wn said:
well at that point you're refusing to comply with user demand. which isn't really a good thing, mind you. and would rather go by outdated rules that have been and will continue to be broken as time goes on. the rule might as well not exist as we have TONS of profiles that go against the rule.
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The rule is not outdated as me and staff members have updated it before some months.
 
I think there's a lot of arguing that can be done over the specifics, but given that ultimately Bambu is right in saying that the main concern is where you draw the line, and I don't think WWE crosses that line.

It's fine to stay IMO. It obviously behaves a bit differently from most things we index here but quite frankly I can't look at the goofy supernatural shit that happens in it and take into account "oh some people actually think this is real", some people think the Earth is flat man. It's blatantly just fiction and it never is and never was meant to be thought of as anything other than that (outside of maybe the very early days, I don't know about those), kayfabe culture is just very strong and some people are too stupid to be in on its joke (or have just never thought much about it).

Similarly I think the improv elements are being very overstated here, they exist but more often than not matches are planned pretty thoroughly, and no matter what their overall "storyline" always is, which is... just not what improv is.

That said, Logan Paul's presence is questionable for a variety of reasons.
 
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Armorchompy said:
I think there's a lot of arguing that can be done over the specifics, but given that ultimately Bambu is right in saying that the main concern is where you draw the line, and I don't think WWE crosses that line.

It's fine to stay IMO. It obviously behaves a bit differently from most things we index here but quite frankly I can't look at the goofy supernatural shit that happens in it and take into account "oh some people actually think this is real", some people think the Earth is flat man. It's blatantly just fiction and it never is and never was meant to be thought of as anything other than that (outside of maybe the very early days, I don't know about those), kayfabe culture is just very strong and some people are too stupid to be in on its joke (or have just never thought much about it).

Similarly I think the improv elements are being very overstated here, they exist but more often than not matches are planned pretty thoroughly, and no matter what their overall "storyline" always is, which is... just not what improv is.

That said, Logan Paul's presence is questionable for a variety of reasons.
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So, disagree with deletion of WWE, neutral, leaning towards agree with deletion of Logan Paul?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
The question there, really, is "Do we consider WWE, a verse comprised solely of stage cameos and shownames, a legitimate verse?"

We have rules against such things but most people have preferred in the past to classify it as a special exception.

For my part, I would rather see it gone.
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See, that's what I don't get about the WWE's inclusion in the wiki. These are real-world people we putting up here. Why are we not only separating WWE wrestlers from the real world, but also wanking them beyond belief?
 
Is it fictional storyline that has absolutely no bear to the real world?

The important aspect to consider here is the substantial community support behind it. Therefore, we must carefully evaluate it from the standpoint of the community and its fans and not necessarily from the guidelines (as this can be added as an exception).

Tho, I fully agree with its deletion (verse and character).
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Then we should delete Vtuber verses.

Like if you really think about it, they operate on the same logic.
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Exactly. This is one that bothered me more than WWE, personally. At least WWE did some legit combat stuff. From what I can tell from Hololive at least, VTubers are is basically anime girls having the collective IQ of two-and-a-half while playing video games.
 
Flashlight237 said:
Exactly. This is one that bothered me more than WWE, personally. At least WWE did some legit combat stuff. From what I can tell from Hololive at least, VTubers are is basically anime girls having the collective IQ of two-and-a-half while playing video games.
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Full stop right now. Please actually read up what our Hololive profiles are about before any off you even try to "lulstreamerprofiledelete" them. Our Hololive profiles are striclty, and I MEAN strictly about the official Hololive anime produced by the Corporation behind Hololive, Cover. We do not feature ANY information from livestreams
 
ImmortalDread said:
Is it fictional storyline that has absolutely no bear to the real world?
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Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn are currently champions in WWE
WWE in their video packages previously and usually shows their REAL LIFE friendship
1:40 (They usually show their college photos as well)

So yes real life friendships, real life friendships turning into villainous plots via jealously and all that are involved in storyline.
WWE is a big verse and has original characters such as Demon Kane as well who came from depths of hell and is brother of undertaker.
Whose story is this


Kane and Undertaker are fully designed by WWE.
However The Rock who we all know is Dwayne Johnson his Hollywood stuff is also used in WWE such as Red Notice movie


So yeah it's a original + Hollywood + Celebrity + UFC fighter like Brock Lesnar + comedians like Johnny Knoxville+ lots of stuff from well..... everywhere.
 
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