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Alright so, the LIVE A LIVE Remake came out (it's really good). Given there's a new script with a bunch of minor changes, new visuals, a lot more information into the game's workings and a little bit of new story, reworking the entire verse seemed almost necessary to keep it in an updated state, since any information currently on the profiles is effectively outdated. Here is my sandbox that contains some of the profiles (I had to split it in two since it got too big for the forums to handle, here's the other one, first one contains the eight protagonists except Lei instead of the Shifu since Lei has a pre-existing one and the second is Mad Dog, Streibough, Hasshe and Uranus plus all the others which are still WIP, I'll work on them group by group as I wanted to get the CRT approved before that) and here are the calculation blogs we'll be using. I won't go into every single change made since this is like 30 profiles being reworked and it would be overly long, but feel free to check the sandbox for them.
This is one hell of a revision (took me almost three weeks, I calculated over 20 feats and made almost 40 renders) so if there's controversy I would like to tackle it a section at a time, so I'm gonna split it and if you disagree with stuff let's agree to tackle it one chunk at a time so we can come to conclusions.
Oh also profiles don't have references because they basically reference themselves, all P&A is divided by the chapter it appears in (further division isn't really possible) or is inherent to gameplay, in which case the way I worder things kind of addresses it on its own (Something like "Can heal off status ailments with Matango Lite" or "Can paralyze enemies with Vine Poke")
Finally, you may notice a lot of claims regarding the Medieval and final chapter have no scans. The reason for this is that Square Enix are TOTAL ******* ASSHOLES and copyright strike all videos about it. So, I archived some of the most important ones on Imgur and the rest... eugh. I went through like five to seven hours of content three times already hoping I'd never need to do so again every time, and I don't wanna do it a fourth time only for that video to be removed too. So, stuff that can only be proven via videos... I'm sorry. Hopefully they stop doing this in a few months and I can go fish them up. They don't even allow you to take screenshots on your Switch during plot-sensitive moments. But until then I can't help it, if it's worth anything I had footage of it all. If anything in specific is necessary I can try and fish for it but I can't go looking for 147 (Yes I counted) scans again, I'm sorry.
This is one hell of a revision (took me almost three weeks, I calculated over 20 feats and made almost 40 renders) so if there's controversy I would like to tackle it a section at a time, so I'm gonna split it and if you disagree with stuff let's agree to tackle it one chunk at a time so we can come to conclusions.
Oh also profiles don't have references because they basically reference themselves, all P&A is divided by the chapter it appears in (further division isn't really possible) or is inherent to gameplay, in which case the way I worder things kind of addresses it on its own (Something like "Can heal off status ailments with Matango Lite" or "Can paralyze enemies with Vine Poke")
Finally, you may notice a lot of claims regarding the Medieval and final chapter have no scans. The reason for this is that Square Enix are TOTAL ******* ASSHOLES and copyright strike all videos about it. So, I archived some of the most important ones on Imgur and the rest... eugh. I went through like five to seven hours of content three times already hoping I'd never need to do so again every time, and I don't wanna do it a fourth time only for that video to be removed too. So, stuff that can only be proven via videos... I'm sorry. Hopefully they stop doing this in a few months and I can go fish them up. They don't even allow you to take screenshots on your Switch during plot-sensitive moments. But until then I can't help it, if it's worth anything I had footage of it all. If anything in specific is necessary I can try and fish for it but I can't go looking for 147 (Yes I counted) scans again, I'm sorry.
Starting off the most objective (?) category of all and the one most people might care about, here's what the characters' stats will look like. Mostly upgrades all across the board due to improved visuals allowing for some nice gameplay feats, some downgrades too though.
- Prehistory
- 8-B -> 7-C (Pretty wild huh)
- Class M -> Class M
- ??? -> Hypersonic+
- Imperial China
- 9-B+ -> 9-C (Currently we downscale pre-training inheritors from their trained selves which I strongly disagree with, the Shifu is clearly holding back against them while fighting them and given his much higher level of power compared to the OG downscaling would be ignoring intention IMO. 9-C comes from fighting tigers, mainly)
- 9-A -> 8-B
- Subsonic -> Supersonic+ (Pre-training Hong Hakka has some weirdly busted afterimages feat that is supported by pre-training Lei being FTE)
- Class 5 -> Class 25 (Only applies to post-training, pre-training is downgraded to Above Average Human. I don't know what the Class 5 feat is tbh)
- Bakumatsu
- 9-A+ -> 8-B (Mimic Mammet/O-Robo is capable of learning Worldbreaker's Wrath, Masaru's ultimate move, believe it or not. This was in the originals too I just never realized lol)
- Hypersonic -> Superhuman with Subsonic perception (Oboro's fire attacks are clearly the result of magic, not sheer speed. Unfortunately due to puffs of smoke and some other stuff so are his clones, so Bakumatsu ends up a bit screwed in speed)
- Superhuman -> Class 25 (Various characters being able to pull off superhuman leaps is support)
- Western
- 9-C/9-B -> 9-A+ (The Dynamite which causes this insanely huge crater can also be used in battle and O. Dio can survive it, which means his dura scales to it. As for how this scales back to the characters' durability (And O. Dio's AP), both they and O. Dio can also throw Flaming Cocktails, and there's no reason to assume Sundown's are thousands of times stronger, so they scale from that)
- Supersonic -> Subsonic with Subsonic+ perception and attack speed
- LS ain't changing LOL
- Present Day
- 9-A -> 8-B
- At least Peak Human, Subsonic attack speed -> Supersonic
- Near Future
- 9-A -> 9-A+
- Supersonic+ -> Subsonic with Subsonic+ perception (I normally generally dislike scaling mech pilots to their mech, I think generally we avoid doing that and given the Steel Titan's speed may get way higher, I think it's better to separate them)
- 8-B+ -> 8-A
- Class M -> Class G
- Supersonic+ -> Relativistic (I make the argument as to why that's usable in the thread itself but yeah, lol)
- Distant Future
- 9-A -> 10-B Alright so, not only would the 9-A feat for Cube not really work in the remake since the animation is much slower now, but it's made invalid by a bunch of things:
- Huey can lift Cube, which means my previous calculation of him weighing two tons was probably wrong. In retrospect, that was always kind of really stupid, so my b.
- Darthe can hurt Cube, and while he's a pretty buff guy and peak humans can get dummy strong in LAL he doesn't really have anything that implies him being above 10-A/9-C.
- Kirk can hurt Cube, and if there's possibly an argument for Darthe being really strong, Kirk is 10-A at best, he's ultimately just a normal if fit guy as far as we can tell. This is particularly notable as Cube was trying to interrupt a fight between him and Huey and he was swatted away anyway, so you can't argue it was because of Cube's pacifistic nature.
- Cube is unable to resist the pull of an open airlock into space, which humans are capable of doing. Admittedly this is probably due to it being lighter than them, but still notable I suppose.
- That said, the reason I'm giving Cube 10-B and not 10-C is that another Cube body was capable of seriously injuring Kato while controlled by OD-10. Our Cube even fights evenly with it. So I think 10-B is fine, I guess you could argue 10-A and that would make sense but it would kinda clash with Kirk being > Cube by a lot. Kato isn't a fighter and he wouldn't expect an attack from Cube at all so him getting injured still makes sense. I also think Cube should get 10-A durability for being sent flying by both Darthe and Kirk with no lasting damage.
- While we're there I think Cube's combat P&A should be shifted to his Final Chapter key. It doesn't make much sense for a support robot to be developed with a particle cannon and a mind control unit among other things, and while them spontaneously developing them in the final chapter makes no sense either, you could use the battery you need to slot into them to activate them again as an explanation, I guess. That or we just shrug and say Odio did it, sure, why the **** not.
- 9-A -> 10-B Alright so, not only would the 9-A feat for Cube not really work in the remake since the animation is much slower now, but it's made invalid by a bunch of things:
- Middle Ages
- 8-C+ -> 8-A
- The current calculation method for Streibough [that's how you spell Straybow now] collapsing a roof is invalid: we can see that only one rock falls and just that breaking off would be nothing. However, this earthquake is said to affect the entire mountain. By Streibough who's a lying bastard admittedly but the tremors are there, lying about that specific detail would just make his lie easier to detect and those tremors greatly resemble a similar instance of shaking that happens in the final chapter which is once again said to affect the whole mountain (and explicitly called an earthquake). As such I think it's fair to consider it a legitimate earthquake especially since one of the bosses, Claustrophobia, also utilizes earthquakes to attack. There's also the Steel Titan earthquake being both considered legitimate in portrayal and supported by its statistics, which goes to show that LAL treats earthquakes with a passable amount of realism.
- The intense shaking and some damage being caused to the infrastructure of Archon's Roost would I believe make this a 5.0 magnitude attack, which makes it 8-A.
- Supersonic -> Subsonic (Unfortunately I dunno if Streibough's electric stuff is legit)
- 8-C+ -> 8-A
- The Dominion of Hate (Final Chapter)
- 8-B+ -> 7-C (See SPOILERS)
- Class M -> Class M
- I don't think there's any reliable scaling to Odeo/Steel Titan (See SPOILERS), but right now I want to tackle the fact that one of the changes made to the remake is that attacks that push enemies have now a chance of failing (I know this because I tried stunlocking superbosses with them and sometimes the pushes would just fail), which implies you're actually overpowering the enemies' LS not just pushing them before they can counter you. And since enemies also have pushing attacks plus you can fight Pogo with various characters (and he's the guy Class M comes from), this would end up scaling LS to all party members, I believe.
- Relativistic -> Relativistic, again based off Steel Titan scaling
- 2-C -> Low 2-C (Only applies to Armageddon of course but a toy of the Steel Titan/Buriki Daioh is found in Kato's room in the Distant Future chapter which I believe means all the chapters happen in the same universe/timeline/whatever, which would make the feat Low 2-C)
This won't cover all ability changes again, I'm mostly going to be going over big universal stuff that you will see at the top of the sandbox.
Elemental/Status resistances are something that LAL always had but the remake actually communicates them to you now, which means I could gather a full list of resistances for all characters and also list what P&A corresponds to every element, and as such give resistances accordingly. So for example the Earth element includes a lot of shockwave attacks in it so resisting it gives you resistance to Earth Manipulation and Vibration Manipulation. And so on, I've elaborated a lot more in the sandbox itself.
Additionally, all protagonists minus Cube should get Accelerated Development. Again, elaborated more in the sandbox, but the gist of it is that unlike in most RPGs where all characters grow at similar paces, Live A Live uses its leveling system for some storytelling and shows that plenty of characters do not possess the growth speed that the protagonists do: the Mimic Mammet, Hasshe, Uranus, Matsu and Beru all get significantly less stats by leveling than the main characters while Pre-training Earthen Heart Inheritors, Hasshe, The Prisoner and Matsu cannot develop new moves by leveling. Given that, and given that plenty of the protagonists have their own showings of Accelerated Development, I think it's reasonable to scale it to the other ones (plus a few other characters that level normally like Gori).
I'll note that unfortunately at the moment of writing this I couldn't find any data on the moves of non-protagonist party members, so basically all of those profiles are gonna be missing some stuff (I could go back and grind but I'm uh, not doing that rn, feel free to do so yourselves though I'd appreciate it). Hopefully some more complete data on that comes out in the future, I might also grind for it in the future but right now, I got nothin'.
Elemental/Status resistances are something that LAL always had but the remake actually communicates them to you now, which means I could gather a full list of resistances for all characters and also list what P&A corresponds to every element, and as such give resistances accordingly. So for example the Earth element includes a lot of shockwave attacks in it so resisting it gives you resistance to Earth Manipulation and Vibration Manipulation. And so on, I've elaborated a lot more in the sandbox itself.
Additionally, all protagonists minus Cube should get Accelerated Development. Again, elaborated more in the sandbox, but the gist of it is that unlike in most RPGs where all characters grow at similar paces, Live A Live uses its leveling system for some storytelling and shows that plenty of characters do not possess the growth speed that the protagonists do: the Mimic Mammet, Hasshe, Uranus, Matsu and Beru all get significantly less stats by leveling than the main characters while Pre-training Earthen Heart Inheritors, Hasshe, The Prisoner and Matsu cannot develop new moves by leveling. Given that, and given that plenty of the protagonists have their own showings of Accelerated Development, I think it's reasonable to scale it to the other ones (plus a few other characters that level normally like Gori).
I'll note that unfortunately at the moment of writing this I couldn't find any data on the moves of non-protagonist party members, so basically all of those profiles are gonna be missing some stuff (I could go back and grind but I'm uh, not doing that rn, feel free to do so yourselves though I'd appreciate it). Hopefully some more complete data on that comes out in the future, I might also grind for it in the future but right now, I got nothin'.
OK so the Live A Live Remake is really faithful to the original game minus some minor script changes UNTIL the final boss, where after the boss rush instead of ending it drops one more phase on you, Sin of Odio. Now I'm not gonna go too much into what this causes since it's mostly just a new key for Oersted, but there's two things I'd like to note.
Oersted draws from all the hatred in the world to become Sin of Odio. Now given that in the following battle pictures of his incarnations appear in the background of the fight, that his hate is said to transcend time and that those very incarnations are said to be the faces of his hate, I think it's fair to say he's drawing power from them, among other things. So I think it's fair to sum the AP of all his other incarnations to get the AP of Sin of Odio, which is where 7-C comes from. Admittedly I typed this whole thing out when all the feats were tier 8 and as such this reasoning actually brought the verse from 8-A to 8-A+, then I recalculated the Mammoth feat and now this whole thing adds like 0.6% and it doesn't matter at all LMAO. Protagonists downscale from this, they can injure and weaken SoO and even destroy his arms though it ultimately immobilizes them before they can land the finishing blow. Oersted is the one to do so himself which proves he in his final chapter key also scales, not that that's necessary given he's literally the previous final boss lmao.
Secondarily, while SoO would probably scale to Odeo/Steel Titan's Class G, I don't think the protagonists would scale back to it, you can't really push it at all and with one of its attacks it can easily overpower you so eh, let's stick to Class M.
Anyway, our current Oersted profile composites all of the other Odio incarnations under him. Not only does this mean most of the information isn't conveyed and as such I would suggest splitting for the sake of better indexing anyways, but Oersted managing to free himself from Sin of Odio shows that Odio's incarnations are still separate individuals, just ones that had Odio grow within them. In fact, Streibough now appears to also have been affected by Odio in a similar way. So I think they should be split. Admittedly, Sin of Odio itself should get a different profile from Oersted but given that we only see SoO while it's using Oersted as a vehicle and unlike all other Odios Oersted actually has the ability to become Sin of Odio, I think it's fine to put it all in one, Sin of Odio as far as we know can't manifest without Oersted and Oersted has Sin of Odio as an option at his disposal.
Oersted draws from all the hatred in the world to become Sin of Odio. Now given that in the following battle pictures of his incarnations appear in the background of the fight, that his hate is said to transcend time and that those very incarnations are said to be the faces of his hate, I think it's fair to say he's drawing power from them, among other things. So I think it's fair to sum the AP of all his other incarnations to get the AP of Sin of Odio, which is where 7-C comes from. Admittedly I typed this whole thing out when all the feats were tier 8 and as such this reasoning actually brought the verse from 8-A to 8-A+, then I recalculated the Mammoth feat and now this whole thing adds like 0.6% and it doesn't matter at all LMAO. Protagonists downscale from this, they can injure and weaken SoO and even destroy his arms though it ultimately immobilizes them before they can land the finishing blow. Oersted is the one to do so himself which proves he in his final chapter key also scales, not that that's necessary given he's literally the previous final boss lmao.
Secondarily, while SoO would probably scale to Odeo/Steel Titan's Class G, I don't think the protagonists would scale back to it, you can't really push it at all and with one of its attacks it can easily overpower you so eh, let's stick to Class M.
Anyway, our current Oersted profile composites all of the other Odio incarnations under him. Not only does this mean most of the information isn't conveyed and as such I would suggest splitting for the sake of better indexing anyways, but Oersted managing to free himself from Sin of Odio shows that Odio's incarnations are still separate individuals, just ones that had Odio grow within them. In fact, Streibough now appears to also have been affected by Odio in a similar way. So I think they should be split. Admittedly, Sin of Odio itself should get a different profile from Oersted but given that we only see SoO while it's using Oersted as a vehicle and unlike all other Odios Oersted actually has the ability to become Sin of Odio, I think it's fine to put it all in one, Sin of Odio as far as we know can't manifest without Oersted and Oersted has Sin of Odio as an option at his disposal.
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