Lisa vs Copen

[Smashtwig]

er, u gon make any arguments in favor of Lisa? My turn is pretty much over

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

er, u gon make any arguments in favor of Lisa? My turn is pretty much over

I would like if others also give their input about Lisa but well.

Copen has experience with lightning users "tagging" them before letting lose with a lightning attack- even though Lisa's thunderbolt's from that attack are fast, Copen can still dodge them with a Bullit Dash, and can possibly interrupt her trying to do her attack with it. However, I understand that Lisa does have Interruption Resistance- so it might not work

However, due to 50 meter distance, Copen may notice Lisa trying to do this and just stay away the whole time, using Bullit Dashes to get away while just doing normal shot attacks

About range, there was a thread to increase the range of all mages of Razor level to kilometers, in the end was decided that it should be a case by case matter, though so far I saw in the thread Lisa was one of the few case that it's accepted to have kilometers of range since she is the teacher of Razor, is literally above him in every aspect and can do the same spell, but considering how the profile still say dozen of meters I'm pretty sure they forgot to change her, that or they were to lazy to update her (like they currently are in adding the things from my recent crt to the rest of profiles I'm not gonna touch do to spoilers) so actually she should have the range to hit him even after he take distance.

At this point I'm even thinking in doing a crt to update the range of her profile, and probably also add her some abilities like homing attack for her orbs (like, even the description of the skill itself say is a homing attack...).

 

[Smashtwig]

I see, as a question, how like... homing... are these orbs- are they like, sharply turning or like, the slow turning that you can still kinda dodge?

Vid would be nice but you dont gotta provide one

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I see, as a question, how like... homing... are these orbs- are they like, sharply turning or like, the slow turning that you can still kinda dodge?

When I commented that part I played with Lisa a bit and it's the sharp turn, one of the enemies I tried it with the wind slimes, in the moment they made a big jump the orb instantly turned to above. Later when I do the crt I would try to add to it a gif, now it's to late and I'm gonna sleep.

 

[Smashtwig]

It doesn’t seem like Lisa’s all that great at melee combat, so her win condition is stating at a range, but Copen’s Bullit Dashing and it’s agility that it provides are an extremely good placeholder. As soon as he gets Anchor Nexus, he pretty much has an unlimited homing dash as well. As soon as Lisa is caught by that, it’ll be hard to turn the tides.

 

[Jackpact]

So just to make sure, what is Copen most common type of attack, physical or energy?

Also how does anchor nexus work?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

It doesn’t seem like Lisa’s all that great at melee combat, so her win condition is stating at a range, but Copen’s Bullit Dashing and it’s agility that it provides are an extremely good placeholder. As soon as he gets Anchor Nexus, he pretty much has an unlimited homing dash as well. As soon as Lisa is caught by that, it’ll be hard to turn the tides.

Yep, she isn't good at close distance, though if Copen really close the distance enough then she probably would use her teleport or intag to take distance.

About the homing dash, if she turn intag and he hit her, when she reappear the homing would follow her again instantly? Since he have interacted with other characters with electro intag I have that question.

As a side note I would be doing the crt in the night.

 

[Smashtwig]

As a side note I would be doing the crt in the night.

Lmao time zones make that mean absolutely nothing to me

So long as it’s within range (basically screen wide) Copen already just… locks onto her with Anchor Nexus, should she dodge with teleport and intangibility, as soon as she comes back she’ll just be dealing with the air dash attack right away again.

Copen mostly attacks with a physical blow to “tag” his foes, it doesn’t deal much damage, but it sets up for rapid fire energy attacks from a distance (mostly, not Anchor Nexus or Orbital Edge), these energy attacks, due to the “tag” track the opponent from anywhere on the screen, no matter Copen’s or their position.

Basically, dash tackle to “tag” em, all energy attacks after that home without fail

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I posted the crt.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The things were added.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Lmao time zones make that mean absolutely nothing to me

So long as it’s within range (basically screen wide) Copen already just… locks onto her with Anchor Nexus, should she dodge with teleport and intangibility, as soon as she comes back she’ll just be dealing with the air dash attack right away again.

Copen mostly attacks with a physical blow to “tag” his foes, it doesn’t deal much damage, but it sets up for rapid fire energy attacks from a distance (mostly, not Anchor Nexus or Orbital Edge), these energy attacks, due to the “tag” track the opponent from anywhere on the screen, no matter Copen’s or their position.

Basically, dash tackle to “tag” em, all energy attacks after that home without fail

Answer for this?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Answer for this?

Just block with forcefields, counter with her own attacks or just intag/teleport when something is going to hit?

 

[Smashtwig]

sorry im freaking out over Gunvolt Chronicles (where copen is from) getting a hecking English Dub that sounds good

 

[Smashtwig]

Anyways, for blocking, I recall Amber showed it like once. It'd be effective, but I can't imagine Lisa using it in character

I mean, once she's tagged, there's basically nothing she can do, there's just a storm of different attacks, some that detonate in giant explosions (which would hit even if she somehow blocks with an attacks or forcefields due to the area of effects), if she counters with her own attacks it'll be hard to do since they come from a lot of different sharp angles rapid fire

For Anchor Nexus, as soon as she becomes tangible again, it'll just... target her again.

Also, while she's attacking, I'd imagine it'd be hard to manually turn on her intangibility while she's trying to attack


As well, if Lisa can counter Copen's attacks with her own... so can Copen, with his massive AoE attacks that eliminate precision needed to do such a feat for smaller projectiles, like what Lisa has to deal with.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Anyways, for blocking, I recall Amber showed it like once. It'd be effective, but I can't imagine Lisa using it in character

Why she wouldn't do it in that situation if she is more intelligent, experienced and skilled than Amber? If even someone like Amber did it when needed she don't have any reason to not do so.

I mean, once she's tagged, there's basically nothing she can do, there's just a storm of different attacks, some that detonate in giant explosions (which would hit even if she somehow blocks with an attacks or forcefields due to the area of effects), if she counters with her own attacks it'll be hard to do since they come from a lot of different sharp angles rapid fire

For Anchor Nexus, as soon as she becomes tangible again, it'll just... target her again.

Also, while she's attacking, I'd imagine it'd be hard to manually turn on her intangibility while she's trying to attack


As well, if Lisa can counter Copen's attacks with her own... so can Copen, with his massive AoE attacks that eliminate precision needed to do such a feat for smaller projectiles, like what Lisa has to deal with.

The forcefield protect in all directions so the aoe of the attack don't really matter.

Counter with her own attacks don't only mean the basic lightning but something like the Lightning Rose is included since that automatically attack everything inside the range.

I mean, if she teleport in middle of combat while attacking then I don't think it would be hard do the same with the intag, it would be annoying do it constantly yes but she should be able.

About Copen counter her attacks well, he could, but considering that she is able to make her attacks appear around the target (as showed with her charged basic attack) so that can make harder to dodge or block everything (specially since he could get inside the aoe of his attacks), she can also change the weather to attack and so. So while he could indeed dodge or counter, it would be hard to do that with everything, and since he don't seem to resist electricity just one hit could be dangerous since even Kaeya had numbness for a long time and Vision user should be resistant to electricity do to resist balethunder which was accepted here (the fact that isn't added to the profiles I'm pretty sure is because everyone forgot or were too lazy... again), so there is that, there is also the disease and emphatic manip for prolonged exposure to concentrations of elemental energy, which with the fighting style of Lisa she should be able to do relatively quickly, so a long fight is bad for Copen and he should try to end the fight quickly.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So while he could indeed dodge or counter, it would be hard to do that with everything, and since he don't seem to resist electricity just one hit could be dangerous since even Kaeya had numbness for a long time and Vision user should be resistant to electricity do to resist balethunder which was accepted here (the fact that isn't added to the profiles I'm pretty sure is because everyone forgot or were too lazy... again), so there is that, there is also the disease and emphatic manip for prolonged exposure to concentrations of elemental energy, which with the fighting style of Lisa she should be able to do relatively quickly, so a long fight is bad for Copen and he should try to end the fight quickly.

I'm pretty sure that this is because the discussion is still going on though it didn't have much activity lately.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I'm pretty sure that this is because the discussion is still going on though it didn't have much activity lately.

No, the part about that they resist electricity do to balethunder was accepted, no one was against it in the thread, the thing discussed was if everyone have resistances to elemental energy in general and thus resistance to elements, but specifically resistance against electricity was accepted.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

No, the part about that they resist electricity do to balethunder was accepted, no one was against it in the thread, the thing discussed was if everyone have resistances to elemental energy in general and thus resistance to elements, but specifically resistance against electricity was accepted.

Okay, I guess nobody got around to doing it since there was still a discussion going even if that part was already accepted.

 

[Jackpact]

Thinking about it, anchor nexus require 3 of the 6 orb that Cope have so wouldn't destroying those mean he can't use it anymore? Or does he have some more spares?

 

[Smashtwig]

Hm, yeah Copen has not many wincons, he would have to brute force his way through the forcefields (seriously why does everyone NOT use those). However he HAS had experience against Forcefield users too, and Orbital Edge does straight up pierce through them. I doubt Lisa would have the forcefields up the ENTIRE time, Copen could simply hot her when it’s… well, no down, same for intangibility. In fact, that’s exactly what he had to do against the Forcefield user (and he turned on that Forcefield A LOT, so he can definitely do it for Lisa’s Forcefields and Intangibility). He’s a 100 years old and he’s been fighting that entire time, he can do that

Copen‘s been getting beat up by electricity users like, 6 times by now, I‘m pretty sure he would have been paralyzed multiple times by this point (he’s a 100 years old) to come up with a technological gizmo to not get hit by paralysis.

Uuuuh as for the Orbs’s we’ve never really seen them get damaged, but not only are they just as fast as Copen (his Bullet Dashing already makes him REALLY a hard to hit, even with all the AoE Lisa would have, not only that, they orbit Copen and are significantly smaller, I don’t think hitting them is realistic


New Point, Twin Shredder. Very damn strong Screen Nuke, and it’s very dang fast, as soon as Lisa gets out of Forcefield / Intang, she can potentially get lethally injured (Copen has the AP advantage if I recall?) since it’s even stronger than his normal attacks

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Hm, yeah Copen has not many wincons

I actually think he have, I even think that realistically both of them have various win con that both could accomplish to the point that if I wasn't the OP I would vote inco.

he would have to brute force his way through the forcefields (seriously why does everyone NOT use those). However he HAS had experience against Forcefield users too, and Orbital Edge does straight up pierce through them. I doubt Lisa would have the forcefields up the ENTIRE time, Copen could simply hot her when it’s… well, no down, same for intangibility. In fact, that’s exactly what he had to do against the Forcefield user (and he turned on that Forcefield A LOT, so he can definitely do it for Lisa’s Forcefields and Intangibility). He’s a 100 years old and he’s been fighting that entire time, he can do that

To be just, in a gacha game where there are dozens of characters which each have to have different abilities and fighting styles to appeal for the player isn't the best idea gameplay wise give to them several abilities that are exactly equal. To give them that type of thing is that exist the cinematic, lore and adaptations to other medias that don't have that sort of limitations. In game aside from the playable characters that have that limitation most of the enemies that use elemental energy use the forcefields (slimes, elementa cubes, abyss mages, fatui mages, fatui soldiers, etc)

Regarding Orbital Edge that indeed sound troublesome for the forcefield, Lisa would need to shoot them down or intag/teleport for dodge.

Copen‘s been getting beat up by electricity users like, 6 times by now, I‘m pretty sure he would have been paralyzed multiple times by this point (he’s a 100 years old) to come up with a technological gizmo to not get hit by paralysis.

While the experience part is important, the electro users aren't really uncommon in Genshin Impact so that the opponent have experience against electro users isn't honestly much a disadvantage and even someone like Signora (500 years old) fled saying that she didn't wanted to face the Knights of Favonius which probably refered to Lisa, Jean, Kaeya or possibly Diluc, and while I also think he should have developed a sort of countermeasure for that, unfortunately said countermeasure is unknown for us and even a vision user like Kaeya, who should resist the electricity of the balethunder that can kill someone in seconds, said that about the lightning of Lisa, so the unknown countermeasure could be not enough against her.

New Point, Twin Shredder. Very damn strong Screen Nuke, and it’s very dang fast, as soon as Lisa gets out of Forcefield / Intang, she can potentially get lethally injured (Copen has the AP advantage if I recall?) since it’s even stronger than his normal attacks

Also something that sound dangerous, so if Lisa is taken by surprise it could be dangerous.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Honestly, this match is fun, after I do a revision to another verse I probably gonna do other match against azure strike.

 

[Smashtwig]

Another thing for Forcefield is Rising Cyclone. From what I understand from that manga panel where Amber used the Forcefield, it didn't seem to protect from below, Rising Cyclone attacks from below, so maybe this is a factor


Copen's scientific genius for this kinda of stuff allowed him to resist all kinds of Septima Powers specifically tailored to render his technology useless. But I do get your point, even if it did screw him, I doubt it'd be for long


Will get to the others later because school

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Another thing for Forcefield is Rising Cyclone. From what I understand from that manga panel where Amber used the Forcefield, it didn't seem to protect from below, Rising Cyclone attacks from below, so maybe this is a factor

Since it was showed that vision users can indeed make forcefields like the rest of enemies that use elemental energy then I think is fair compare it with their shield, in which case then it should protect them from below too.

Will get to the others later because school

Sure, until hope you have a good day there.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well looks like Lisa is winning here

 

[Smashtwig]

Not yet sir- (I have a little time btw)

Copen can theoretically just power through the Forcefields in general with pretty much any of his EX Weapons, especially broken ass Orbital Edge with AP huh

And I just don't think her lightning attacks are really gonna hit Copen often at all, especially when he has forcefields and other barrier type abilities of his own

Okay now school

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

 

[Smashtwig]

Seems like Lisa’s only reliable defense option in the end is teleport and intang- are they one in the same? Or like, actually describe em to me again? Because from what I understand, Copen’s Anchor Nexus can just lock onto her immediately as soon as she becomes tangible again

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Seems like Lisa’s only reliable defense option in the end is teleport and intang- are they one in the same? Or like, actually describe em to me again? Because from what I understand, Copen’s Anchor Nexus can just lock onto her immediately as soon as she becomes tangible again

Reliable defense against the attacks that bypass forcefields yes. The intag and teleport are different things, and don't know much about how describe them, the teleport is just that, a teleport, intag would look something like this (just that purple and with electricity).

 

[Ronin119]

Watching this

 

[Smashtwig]

Can u show me the teleport? Because I thought the video (i watched it before) was the teleport and the intang, like... in unison as a single power

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Can u show me the teleport? Because I thought the video (i watched it before) was the teleport and the intang, like... in unison as a single power

This was the scan I added to the profile for the teleport and this one is for the intag, I just send the other vid of the intag because it show better what the characters can actually do with it.

 

[Smashtwig]

Hm, these seem like things for very specific attacks. I'm sure that Lisa could use them defensively, but I would assume that it may not be the first thing on her mind, maybe when Copen gets one or two hits in with his AP Advantage she'd recognize it

The teleportation seems very short, come to think of it I do remember seeing that in my limited time playing the game, probably won't let her escape from a lock on Anchor Nexus. As for intangibility, it could certainly help getting away from Copen, but I would assume that she won't be able to go too far (after all, she'd have to see him to y'know... fight him- going too far would be just... running away lmao), in the video Tart seemed to use it to make his exit instead of using it in his actual battle style, Lisa is probably the same, only going intang for certain cool attacks until she realizes that she needs to use it to its full potential defensively.

If Lisa plans to just play Copen by just teleporting left and right and just have him follow her the entire time, Copen's Bullit Dashes allow him to just- dash one direction, and then immediately turn a 180 with another Dash right away- so when he adapts to this kind of strategy, he can just catch Lisa with a Bullit Dash or worse just counter with a Twin Shredder (again, bad news).

 

[Smashtwig]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tartaglia-vs-blade.119977/

lmao this still exists

 

[Smashtwig]

Hm, these seem like things for very specific attacks. I'm sure that Lisa could use them defensively, but I would assume that it may not be the first thing on her mind, maybe when Copen gets one or two hits in with his AP Advantage she'd recognize it

The teleportation seems very short, come to think of it I do remember seeing that in my limited time playing the game, probably won't let her escape from a lock on Anchor Nexus. As for intangibility, it could certainly help getting away from Copen, but I would assume that she won't be able to go too far (after all, she'd have to see him to y'know... fight him- going too far would be just... running away lmao), in the video Tart seemed to use it to make his exit instead of using it in his actual battle style, Lisa is probably the same, only going intang for certain cool attacks until she realizes that she needs to use it to its full potential defensively.

If Lisa plans to just play Copen by just teleporting left and right and just have him follow her the entire time, Copen's Bullit Dashes allow him to just- dash one direction, and then immediately turn a 180 with another Dash right away- so when he adapts to this kind of strategy, he can just catch Lisa with a Bullit Dash or worse just counter with a Twin Shredder (again, bad news).

Yeah, so I have all of those points but the fact remains that Lisa still has the control over when Copen can or cannot hit her.

So lmao incon

I actually think he have, I even think that realistically both of them have various win con that both could accomplish to the point that if I wasn't the OP I would vote inco.

Lmao i think OPs can vote its just not ethical most of the time since bias

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Hm, these seem like things for very specific attacks. I'm sure that Lisa could use them defensively, but I would assume that it may not be the first thing on her mind, maybe when Copen gets one or two hits in with his AP Advantage she'd recognize it

They aren't really specific attacks, like, the teleport she casually do it in her basic attacks, and her defensive options are 1) Forcefields 2) Counter with her own attacks 3) Teleport 4) Intag. Teleport and intag are half of her defensive options and she isn't a close fighter so isn't gonna stay in one place waiting for the opponent to close the distance or in the case of Cope she don't want to stay in range of his weapons. She also isn't stupid to not use them if see that the forcefields would be overcome or directly bypassed, and if she see that the things follow her she could want to see until what distance they can continue to do so.

The teleportation seems very short, come to think of it I do remember seeing that in my limited time playing the game, probably won't let her escape from a lock on Anchor Nexus. As for intangibility, it could certainly help getting away from Copen, but I would assume that she won't be able to go too far (after all, she'd have to see him to y'know... fight him- going too far would be just... running away lmao), in the video Tart seemed to use it to make his exit instead of using it in his actual battle style, Lisa is probably the same, only going intang for certain cool attacks until she realizes that she needs to use it to its full potential defensively.

Since both characters have teleport and intag I think is fair to compare it to how Xiao have showed to use both in this scene, in the case of Xiao he use it more offensively do to have attacks that use them, Lisa however haven't showed to have means to attack with it since it would imply close distance, so I think it make sense to think that she would use them deffensively. She also could abuse distance after notice the range limit of Copen since after the crt she have the range to do so, she also could see/feel him from such distances with elemental traces that she can use to mark him, like even the stacks of Violent Arc would do the work, and with Pulsating Witch she passively apply them to the enemies.

Also, in the case of Tart he didn't use it because 1) In his fight he actually can fly without turn intag do to his transformation 2) Do to transformations he fighting style was special 3) They were in a close space so he couldn't use much the intag to abuse mobility until the roof break and that was when he wanted to run away.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Yeah, so I have all of those points but the fact remains that Lisa still has the control over when Copen can or cannot hit her.

So lmao incon

Lmao i think OPs can vote its just not ethical most of the time since bias

I actually discovered some days after that comment that the OP can vote in the thread, is just that if is obviously a spite or just vote something without reason is that there is a problem, but seem that if is after a actcual debate then there is no problem.

In this case I think there was enough debate to justify that I vote incon, so with your vote that make 2 Incon.

 

[Smashtwig]

They were in a close space so he couldn't use much the intag to abuse mobility until the roof break and that was when he wanted to run away.

i mean, that's kind of precisely the reason why it can be hard to intang/teleport, since Bullit Dashing can easily catch up, along with Anchor Nexus lock ons, still doesn't really change the incon result since you can make an argument for one working over the other

 

[Xmark12]

Incon FRA