I'm not sure if I follow on this one (despite understanding the paragraph after this one which works off this logic). Idk much about anything aside from FF7, but from the description, someone who doesn't just die to an attack that devours souls... should be able to resist soul based attacks- unless you mean to say that the guy who resists soul attacks shouldn't resist a fire spell from a ghost- which makes more sense
Hold on, hold on, I'm just doing an awful job at explaining myself. In a way, yes I do meant the latter, but also something like this:
- You have Abel the knight who can resist Void Manip and Baal a demon made of nothingness, who erases everything he touches.
- Abel fights Baal. Baal tries to erase Abel, but Abel is unaffected by Baal's abilities.
- Then comes Cain a knight that destroys Baal with a single strike of his sword, despite Baal being nonexistent.
- Then Cain attacks Abel.
In this scenario, should Abel be immune to Cain's sword because Abel was immune to the same nothingness Cain was shown to slay? This is what I say that no, Abel resisting the negative effects of the nothingness that Cain could reach with his attacks are actually unrelated.
Honestly yeah I can see the argument for both sides of the topic. If a person can hit literal nothingness people shouldn't be surprised if they can hit things like Prevasion from the sheer absurdity of being able to hit literally nothing. On the otherhand, people can also say "yeah but dat aint electrons doh" which is equally valid since the two genuinely aren't the same.
The issue I have here is that I don't think it's quite the same. Using electrons as a measure
is pretty straightforward as long as the other side also uses matter as a measure, such as matter manipulation or NPI reaching intangible things that can be measured somehow. In that case, you can simply use how small the particles or such that's being interacted with as a measuring stick (for example, Abel's Special Slash can cut molecules, but Cain can resist atomic destruction). But when the wonky stuff comes into the picture, like nothingness, information, concepts, abstracts and such, I think what one has to begin to scrutinize is the defending ability.
What do I mean by this? What kind of wonky and crazy stuff has the defending ability shown to protect from or avoid? Spatial distortions? Voids? Concepual attacks? Data itself? And how potent has been shown to be the NPI the defending ability could protect from or avoid before it stopped being effective? Since we can't just use matter to compare in a straightforward way, use feats themselves. The incoming attack was shown to be able to hit concepts and the defending ability just phased through? Alright, interacting with concepts is not enough to bypass the defending ability. Transduality doesn't exist in the verse of the defending ability and the opponent now can harm transdual beings? Then it's questionable if the ability would avoid it, given there's a lack of evidence that points to it.
I mean, it's not that I don't believe you and I get where the argument comes from, but that's what I meant with the loophole. Simply taking Pervasion for granted, saying if you can't interact specifically with electrons you're untouchable (or that even that is not enough because it's layered) and not really looking for a limitation or truly measuring the other side, especially given how the comparison is no longer straightforward, due to the Pervasion's hard to pin down consistency sometimes feels NLF-ish.
So... idk, honestly if Sephiroth can hit through Prevasion with this logic, then that adds up to more potential GV matches in general (Prevasion really makes it that hard to find matches for the verse without fighting OP people like Sephiroth or Kratos or Yhwach or whatever)
While I'm sure Sephiroth can react (Speed is indeed equalized after all), I'm just not sure if he would react to a piece of paper being thrown at him. Like, maybe he could be suspicious, but at the same time I specifically recall using Barret's bullets on his wings (I didn't figure out to use Yuffie for like two minutes) and I don't really see much of a effort to defend himself.
The lack of defense is mostly how the battle was framed in the original game. As a turn based RPG everyone just stands there taking attacks unless the RNG allows to dodge. In Rebirth, however, being an Action RPG, Bizarro Sephiroth (or Sephiroth Reborn there) is shown to actively defend himself with his wings and use barriers on his weak spot.
More importantly, mind and memory reading does give Sephiroth full info on Kirin's abilities, he will know that she can seal him with just touching him and that he has to avoid that at any cost.
But there's also the fact that she's capable of sealing Septimal phemoneon, barriers that nullify physical attacks entirely, or even pure concussive energy, not just the users and thus preventing the use of their abilities. And this matters because she can just straight up the barriers with Power Null Resistance thanks to some BS Sealing scaling (her base sealings is layered over a seal thats 166+x stronger than the seal that nulled her verse's 4D ability- and the version we're using is a layer over that). So it's entirely possible that Sephiroth erecting a barrier wouldn't do much anyways.
Oh, she also has a Greed Snatcher Image Pulse which would be another Layer on top of that.
This is a bit different. The reason why Sealing is such a bane for Sephiroth is that he lacks a proper feat of resisting sealing on the level of what Kirin can casually do. But his Spiritual Energy on the other hand does have proper feats that show it can't be blocked or sealed, and especially nulled. This in itself wouldn't be enough, but, Spiritual Energy is also layered and... at the risk of sounding full of fertilizer, due to the retcons to the Lifestream made which turned it from the accumulated life of a planet over time to the accumulated life of a multiverse over eternity, what Sephiroth can resist the weight of that due to the Planet actively trying to dismantle his Spirit. Essentially the resistance to sealing of Sephiroth himself is a 0, which you can't increase by multiplying it, but his Spiritual Energy do have a proper 1 or above that can.
I vaguely recall even in the original FF7 the party can straight up block or otherwise react to attacks that spawn on them (like, in game they do this blocking animation when an attack says it "Miss" on things like Ice2 or whatever Materia spell that spawns on enemies), but if Kirin's constantly moving and teleporting all over the place it might be hard to catch her with a precise attack that spawns on her. The AoE is more likely to work, but assuming this takes place in the Northern Cave or even the place where Sephiroth Reborn was fought in Rebirth then it is also possible for Kirin to straight up jump off the platform and teleport back to avoid things like Heartless Angel, Octaslash, and Ravage (that tornado wind spell thing)-
similar to what Gunvolt does with Nova
That mind read though is actually a problem though, though if Sephiroths's reaction is to erect a barrier then Layered Sealing just goes brrr
I didn't really mean that magic and such are unblockable, what I was trying to say is that they can be used to precisely strike on the opponent's position, more effective that projectiles that travel a distance such as Zanshin or Stigma. Remember he also has Flare for a wide area nuke, most of his spells can be turned into AOE and he does use Telekinesis to crush opponents or restrain them (and even mess around with the terrain).
Never thought where this match was taking place. I guess the weird space thingy of Rebirth would be good. Well it doesn't really matters at this point, but the Planet's Core is within the Lifestream and that would mean Kirin would have to fight with the Lifestream on her.
Mind reading actually would tip Sephiroth on Kirin's actions, such as teleporting and where to. Essentially, what she's going to do, how, where, etc. He will know where to aim his next attack, when to defend, to what to defend against, plan ahead and such.
Well yeah, he does have far more incons that Kirin does for the most part. But in this case it's more important of what wincons are used first rather than which one is used. Multiple wincons are important when the topic is relatively complex, but for here its a pretty simple "who hits first"- and if both of their first moves are the wincon then having more attacks that work on Kirin doesn't really change much if any attack works.
In a way yes, it is a who hits first, I wholeheartedly agree there. However, I think the issue of how they would manage to land that first hit is a much more complex situation given the varied abilities both have. And that's discussion I wanted to have. I mean, it's not like it really matters at this point given the match has already been decided, but I really wanted to make my stance at the very least, especially since I really felt that I wasn't really assertive enough with what I truly believed during the first parts of this thread out of fear of being stubborn and whatnot. At least now I am content that at least put my thoughts on the matter.
Honestly I feel more full of crap even entertaining the fact that Kirin unironically has a wincon here by the sheer fact that it's Sephiroth. No one hates Prevasion more than me lol.
No one is invincible I guess, unless you're from those Xhianxia novels or from Shin Megami Tensei, derp.
I can see your frustation in a way. I mean, I am not really into VS threads that much, but if you want to get cool discussions of your favorite character against other cool characters and get noped by a single ability, I can see why it gets grating.
