A Shrine Maiden tries to seal away a Fallen Hero(Kirin{Azure Striker Gunvolt} vs Sephiroth{Final Fantasy})0-0-7(Grace finished))

[Smashtwig]

Well, uh... was actually thinking for a while regarding Pervasion and I am pretty iffy if it would actually make Kirin untouchable to Sephiroth outside specifically Firaga and Blizzaga. Spiritual Energy allows to interact with outright nothingness, conceptual information, abstracts and beings that trascend all matter, so being unable to reach electrons, which are still matter, feels like a loophole more than anything (in the sense of saying like a character that warped a higher dimension with their power shouldn't be able to harm a planet level durable character until the first character is shown destroying a planet because the feat is more ambiguous than destroying a galaxy or such). How to put it? I do understand where the reasoning that you need feats comes from, but I think that would apply more to matter affecting hax like Matter Manip or Deconstruction which need to be measured according to their specific feats, like you can't say someone affects Quanta unless they are shown affecting Quanta, but even then I think it would be argueable that if a character can perform a feat such as deconstructing an abstract entity, they should be able to affect matter altogether).

yeah i get this- apparently that's just how the system works- and I kinda disagree with the system half the time, but also I think anyone looking at this thread would probably think "this is BS how is some rando miko girl beating sephiroth ever" so i'll try to cover this argument too-

Prevasion is actually so dumb in the fact that is just... WORKS on anything that should logically work on it. For example, Jota's Phosphatorium erases things from the world- electrons are something that clearly exist- and should be able to just be wiped. That makes sense. But then Prevasion just said "no" and Prevaded it anyways. It works on soul attacks which... really should just work on it- but it just doesn't. The point I'm trying to make is that Prevasion is also just as wack as what Spiritual Energy can work on.

But assuming that Sephiroth can just hit through Prevasion I genuinely think that it'd be pretty hard to hit someone who has a lot better dodging ability (that being really good teleportation spam, Issen Dash that let her travel through otherwise undodgable attacks, infinite air jumps Image Pulses, portal Image Pulses technically, etc.) than the cast of the FFVII party assuming we're going with Bizarro Sephiroth here- who doesn't strike me as the hyper mobile type that would dodge an attack. And because her teleport ability is associated with her previously mentioned sealing, you can make the argument that she just... dodges one attack and wins with a seal right after- or throw a seal immediately.

Of course I don't think this is any more likely than Sephiroth just... throwing out any attack and landing a hit that wins, but this Prevasion thing changing wouldn't really affect the outcome as much because either one can just... win on the first move

 

[MysticBrawler]

I'll also vote inconclusive for this match.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Inconclusive FRA

Nah I would Seal vs Nah I would Mako poison

 

[MysticBrawler]

Inconclusive FRA

Nah I would Seal vs Nah I would Mako poison

Counted and thanks for joining in.

 

[TartaChocholate]

yeah i get this- apparently that's just how the system works- and I kinda disagree with the system half the time, but also I think anyone looking at this thread would probably think "this is BS how is some rando miko girl beating sephiroth ever" so i'll try to cover this argument too-

Prevasion is actually so dumb in the fact that is just... WORKS on anything that should logically work on it. For example, Jota's Phosphatorium erases things from the world- electrons are something that clearly exist- and should be able to just be wiped. That makes sense. But then Prevasion just said "no" and Prevaded it anyways. It works on soul attacks which... really should just work on it- but it just doesn't. The point I'm trying to make is that Prevasion is also just as wack as what Spiritual Energy can work on.

But assuming that Sephiroth can just hit through Prevasion I genuinely think that it'd be pretty hard to hit someone who has a lot better dodging ability (that being really good teleportation spam, Issen Dash that let her travel through otherwise undodgable attacks, infinite air jumps Image Pulses, portal Image Pulses technically, etc.) than the cast of the FFVII party assuming we're going with Bizarro Sephiroth here- who doesn't strike me as the hyper mobile type that would dodge an attack. And because her teleport ability is associated with her previously mentioned sealing, you can make the argument that she just... dodges one attack and wins with a seal right after- or throw a seal immediately.

Of course I don't think this is any more likely than Sephiroth just... throwing out any attack and landing a hit that wins, but this Prevasion thing changing wouldn't really affect the outcome as much because either one can just... win on the first move

Apologies, dunno why my notifications didn't tell me of the new replies on this thread. Sorry for the delay... again.

We could ask around to be sure maybe the staff who knows about NPI and Intangibility. It would help to clear up the whole matter and all.

And I'm pretty sure people like seeing Sephiroth getting his ass being tossed around like salad. So no biggie.

I see your point, but I don't know if this is the exact same thing. I mean, the effect of a technique isn't necessarily the method in which said effect was achieved, which in turn is not the same as something that can interact with something of that nature. To put it somehow, for example, in Final Fantasy Tactics you have the Valhalla, a sword that devours the souls of those it strikes, yet the sword itself is not made of souls and someone who can resist the effects of the Valhalla would still be hurt by someone who can interact with souls, they wouldn't just resist the attacks of this second individual. Similarly, there's the Lucavi Adrammelech whose physical attacks can erase enemies from existence, yet he isn't made of void or nothingness like ExDeath or the Cloud of Darkness, yet resisting the erasure from his strikes doesn't protect said individual from the attacks from someone who can harm Ultima who does have NEP. The resistances would protect the first individual from Soul and EE attacks from the second individual, but it wouldn't prevent the second individual from reaching the first one, nor give the first individual an automatic resistance to attacks of the second because they interacted with something the first was shown to resist. or affecting the first with stuff that hasn't been shown to be resisted.

May sound a bit off at first, given Pervasion avoids attacks altogether, but I think there is a similar principle given it's also a defensive ability. Elemental Intangibility has pretty clear cut to what extent it works in theory, and then we begin to take in count the particular details and feats of the specific ability (in this case that it turns the user into electrons and then what has shown to be able to avoid, etc). From the examples you give me I can see Pervasion allowing the user to slip through moves that cause Existence Erasure and Soul Manipulation, even nothingness and souls themselves, but that's not the same as an individual who can interact with nothingness and souls. And even then there's stuff like Type 2 Info and Type 1 Concept Abstracts, or Type 2 NEP, which you told me aren't present in Azure Striker Gunvolt (Info was, but that Kirin was affected while Gunvolt could restore her IIRC, which falls into what I mentioned above).

Regarding Kirin's mobility, I actually agree there, though and yes, as Rebirth showed, he actually is immobile in his Bizarro form. However, he's not exactly a sitting duck... well, he is, but a duck that can fight back at least. As we talked before, he has speed amps in his favour, while he can't exactly dodge, but he can protect himself with barriers that resist power null, Sephiroth always had incredibly sharp senses and reflexes, he can react and counter attacks incredibly well, and while the FFVII cast certainly is nowhere as mobile as Kirin, Sephiroth did fight 8 individuals at once who were assaulting him from different sides, who also had speed amps on themselves that made them faster than Sephiroth. Several of Sephiroth's moves spawn on the target's position, are huge AOE and a couple are omnidirectional, such as Hearless Angel or his Telekinesis (which I brought up before and he doesn't exactly use to restrain his opponents, his first attempt was to crush and tear them apart). The Issen Dash also falls into what I mentioned above regarding NPI. There's also that Sephiroth will be constantly mind reading Kirin, knowing what she'll do and with memory reading he knows what he's up to.

I understand what you mean, but everything Sephiroth does is a wincon. It's hard to say that without sounding full of crap, wow. Still, it's not that I don't believe you or anything, but I can't shake this weird feeling regarding the loophole I mentioned.

 

[AThe1412]

Inconclusive FRA.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Inconclusive FRA.

Counted and thanks for joining in.

 

[MysticBrawler]

We've reached grace.

 

[TartaChocholate]

We've reached grace.

IIRC the topic creator can't vote on their own vs thread.

 

[MysticBrawler]

IIRC the topic creator can't vote on their own vs thread.

I've seen plenty of threads where the OP would make a vote as well, and I've also voted a few times for my own threads without anyone objecting against it. With that said, I think it's safe to say that the OP is free to vote if they want to.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I've seen plenty of threads where the OP would make a vote as well, and I've also voted several times for my own threads without anyone objecting against it. With that said, I think it's safe to say that the OP is free to vote if they want to.

Ah, you're right. Read the rules of the VS thread and the openly state the creator also gets a vote. My bad. I have seen people telling the creator that they couldn't vote, must have been a mistake.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Ah, you're right. Read the rules of the VS thread and the openly state the creator also gets a vote. My bad. I have seen people telling the creator that they couldn't vote, must have been a mistake.

This was a "recent" change, in the past the owner of the thread could not vote like you said

 

[TartaChocholate]

This was a "recent" change, in the past the owner of the thread could not vote like you said

Ah-ha! So I am not crazy!

 

[Smashtwig]

I see your point, but I don't know if this is the exact same thing. I mean, the effect of a technique isn't necessarily the method in which said effect was achieved, which in turn is not the same as something that can interact with something of that nature. To put it somehow, for example, in Final Fantasy Tactics you have the Valhalla, a sword that devours the souls of those it strikes, yet the sword itself is not made of souls and someone who can resist the effects of the Valhalla would still be hurt by someone who can interact with souls, they wouldn't just resist the attacks of this second individual. Similarly, there's the Lucavi Adrammelech whose physical attacks can erase enemies from existence, yet he isn't made of void or nothingness like ExDeath or the Cloud of Darkness, yet resisting the erasure from his strikes doesn't protect said individual from the attacks from someone who can harm Ultima who does have NEP. The resistances would protect the first individual from Soul and EE attacks from the second individual, but it wouldn't prevent the second individual from reaching the first one, nor give the first individual an automatic resistance to attacks of the second because they interacted with something the first was shown to resist. or affecting the first with stuff that hasn't been shown to be resisted.

I'm not sure if I follow on this one (despite understanding the paragraph after this one which works off this logic). Idk much about anything aside from FF7, but from the description, someone who doesn't just die to an attack that devours souls... should be able to resist soul based attacks- unless you mean to say that the guy who resists soul attacks shouldn't resist a fire spell from a ghost- which makes more sense

May sound a bit off at first, given Pervasion avoids attacks altogether, but I think there is a similar principle given it's also a defensive ability. Elemental Intangibility has pretty clear cut to what extent it works in theory, and then we begin to take in count the particular details and feats of the specific ability (in this case that it turns the user into electrons and then what has shown to be able to avoid, etc). From the examples you give me I can see Pervasion allowing the user to slip through moves that cause Existence Erasure and Soul Manipulation, even nothingness and souls themselves, but that's not the same as an individual who can interact with nothingness and souls. And even then there's stuff like Type 2 Info and Type 1 Concept Abstracts, or Type 2 NEP, which you told me aren't present in Azure Striker Gunvolt (Info was, but that Kirin was affected while Gunvolt could restore her IIRC, which falls into what I mentioned above).

Honestly yeah I can see the argument for both sides of the topic. If a person can hit literal nothingness people shouldn't be surprised if they can hit things like Prevasion from the sheer absurdity of being able to hit literally nothing. On the otherhand, people can also say "yeah but dat aint electrons doh" which is equally valid since the two genuinely aren't the same.

So... idk, honestly if Sephiroth can hit through Prevasion with this logic, then that adds up to more potential GV matches in general (Prevasion really makes it that hard to find matches for the verse without fighting OP people like Sephiroth or Kratos or Yhwach or whatever)

Regarding Kirin's mobility, I actually agree there, though and yes, as Rebirth showed, he actually is immobile in his Bizarro form. However, he's not exactly a sitting duck... well, he is, but a duck that can fight back at least. As we talked before, he has speed amps in his favour, while he can't exactly dodge, but he can protect himself with barriers that resist power null, Sephiroth always had incredibly sharp senses and reflexes, he can react and counter attacks incredibly well, and while the FFVII cast certainly is nowhere as mobile as Kirin, Sephiroth did fight 8 individuals at once who were assaulting him from different sides, who also had speed amps on themselves that made them faster than Sephiroth.

While I'm sure Sephiroth can react (Speed is indeed equalized after all), I'm just not sure if he would react to a piece of paper being thrown at him. Like, maybe he could be suspicious, but at the same time I specifically recall using Barret's bullets on his wings (I didn't figure out to use Yuffie for like two minutes) and I don't really see much of a effort to defend himself.

But there's also the fact that she's capable of sealing Septimal phemoneon, barriers that nullify physical attacks entirely, or even pure concussive energy, not just the users and thus preventing the use of their abilities. And this matters because she can just straight up the barriers with Power Null Resistance thanks to some BS Sealing scaling (her base sealings is layered over a seal thats 166+x stronger than the seal that nulled her verse's 4D ability- and the version we're using is a layer over that). So it's entirely possible that Sephiroth erecting a barrier wouldn't do much anyways.

Oh, she also has a Greed Snatcher Image Pulse which would be another Layer on top of that.

Several of Sephiroth's moves spawn on the target's position, are huge AOE and a couple are omnidirectional, such as Hearless Angel or his Telekinesis (which I brought up before and he doesn't exactly use to restrain his opponents, his first attempt was to crush and tear them apart). The Issen Dash also falls into what I mentioned above regarding NPI. There's also that Sephiroth will be constantly mind reading Kirin, knowing what she'll do and with memory reading he knows what he's up to.

I vaguely recall even in the original FF7 the party can straight up block or otherwise react to attacks that spawn on them (like, in game they do this blocking animation when an attack says it "Miss" on things like Ice2 or whatever Materia spell that spawns on enemies), but if Kirin's constantly moving and teleporting all over the place it might be hard to catch her with a precise attack that spawns on her. The AoE is more likely to work, but assuming this takes place in the Northern Cave or even the place where Sephiroth Reborn was fought in Rebirth then it is also possible for Kirin to straight up jump off the platform and teleport back to avoid things like Heartless Angel, Octaslash, and Ravage (that tornado wind spell thing)- similar to what Gunvolt does with Nova

That mind read though is actually a problem though, though if Sephiroths's reaction is to erect a barrier then Layered Sealing just goes brrr

I understand what you mean, but everything Sephiroth does is a wincon. It's hard to say that without sounding full of crap, wow. Still, it's not that I don't believe you or anything, but I can't shake this weird feeling regarding the loophole I mentioned.

Well yeah, he does have far more incons that Kirin does for the most part. But in this case it's more important of what wincons are used first rather than which one is used. Multiple wincons are important when the topic is relatively complex, but for here its a pretty simple "who hits first"- and if both of their first moves are the wincon then having more attacks that work on Kirin doesn't really change much if any attack works.

Honestly I feel more full of crap even entertaining the fact that Kirin unironically has a wincon here by the sheer fact that it's Sephiroth. No one hates Prevasion more than me lol.

 

[Smashtwig]

also, we should wait for Sephiroth's page to update before adding this match so that people don't get the wrong idea and think we did this match without taking into account the new FFVII changes

 

[TartaChocholate]

also, we should wait for Sephiroth's page to update before adding this match so that people don't get the wrong idea and think we did this match without taking into account the new FFVII changes

The profile is ready and all. I am asking staff on their walls to get the remaining votes, after that it's just copy and paste.

Currently at work right now, but I'll read your response in a bit. Even if the match has already been decided, still to keep up our discussion.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I'm not sure if I follow on this one (despite understanding the paragraph after this one which works off this logic). Idk much about anything aside from FF7, but from the description, someone who doesn't just die to an attack that devours souls... should be able to resist soul based attacks- unless you mean to say that the guy who resists soul attacks shouldn't resist a fire spell from a ghost- which makes more sense

Hold on, hold on, I'm just doing an awful job at explaining myself. In a way, yes I do meant the latter, but also something like this:

1. You have Abel the knight who can resist Void Manip and Baal a demon made of nothingness, who erases everything he touches.
2. Abel fights Baal. Baal tries to erase Abel, but Abel is unaffected by Baal's abilities.
3. Then comes Cain a knight that destroys Baal with a single strike of his sword, despite Baal being nonexistent.
4. Then Cain attacks Abel.

In this scenario, should Abel be immune to Cain's sword because Abel was immune to the same nothingness Cain was shown to slay? This is what I say that no, Abel resisting the negative effects of the nothingness that Cain could reach with his attacks are actually unrelated.

Honestly yeah I can see the argument for both sides of the topic. If a person can hit literal nothingness people shouldn't be surprised if they can hit things like Prevasion from the sheer absurdity of being able to hit literally nothing. On the otherhand, people can also say "yeah but dat aint electrons doh" which is equally valid since the two genuinely aren't the same.

The issue I have here is that I don't think it's quite the same. Using electrons as a measure is pretty straightforward as long as the other side also uses matter as a measure, such as matter manipulation or NPI reaching intangible things that can be measured somehow. In that case, you can simply use how small the particles or such that's being interacted with as a measuring stick (for example, Abel's Special Slash can cut molecules, but Cain can resist atomic destruction). But when the wonky stuff comes into the picture, like nothingness, information, concepts, abstracts and such, I think what one has to begin to scrutinize is the defending ability.

What do I mean by this? What kind of wonky and crazy stuff has the defending ability shown to protect from or avoid? Spatial distortions? Voids? Concepual attacks? Data itself? And how potent has been shown to be the NPI the defending ability could protect from or avoid before it stopped being effective? Since we can't just use matter to compare in a straightforward way, use feats themselves. The incoming attack was shown to be able to hit concepts and the defending ability just phased through? Alright, interacting with concepts is not enough to bypass the defending ability. Transduality doesn't exist in the verse of the defending ability and the opponent now can harm transdual beings? Then it's questionable if the ability would avoid it, given there's a lack of evidence that points to it.

I mean, it's not that I don't believe you and I get where the argument comes from, but that's what I meant with the loophole. Simply taking Pervasion for granted, saying if you can't interact specifically with electrons you're untouchable (or that even that is not enough because it's layered) and not really looking for a limitation or truly measuring the other side, especially given how the comparison is no longer straightforward, due to the Pervasion's hard to pin down consistency sometimes feels NLF-ish.

So... idk, honestly if Sephiroth can hit through Prevasion with this logic, then that adds up to more potential GV matches in general (Prevasion really makes it that hard to find matches for the verse without fighting OP people like Sephiroth or Kratos or Yhwach or whatever)

While I'm sure Sephiroth can react (Speed is indeed equalized after all), I'm just not sure if he would react to a piece of paper being thrown at him. Like, maybe he could be suspicious, but at the same time I specifically recall using Barret's bullets on his wings (I didn't figure out to use Yuffie for like two minutes) and I don't really see much of a effort to defend himself.

The lack of defense is mostly how the battle was framed in the original game. As a turn based RPG everyone just stands there taking attacks unless the RNG allows to dodge. In Rebirth, however, being an Action RPG, Bizarro Sephiroth (or Sephiroth Reborn there) is shown to actively defend himself with his wings and use barriers on his weak spot.

More importantly, mind and memory reading does give Sephiroth full info on Kirin's abilities, he will know that she can seal him with just touching him and that he has to avoid that at any cost.

But there's also the fact that she's capable of sealing Septimal phemoneon, barriers that nullify physical attacks entirely, or even pure concussive energy, not just the users and thus preventing the use of their abilities. And this matters because she can just straight up the barriers with Power Null Resistance thanks to some BS Sealing scaling (her base sealings is layered over a seal thats 166+x stronger than the seal that nulled her verse's 4D ability- and the version we're using is a layer over that). So it's entirely possible that Sephiroth erecting a barrier wouldn't do much anyways.

Oh, she also has a Greed Snatcher Image Pulse which would be another Layer on top of that.

This is a bit different. The reason why Sealing is such a bane for Sephiroth is that he lacks a proper feat of resisting sealing on the level of what Kirin can casually do. But his Spiritual Energy on the other hand does have proper feats that show it can't be blocked or sealed, and especially nulled. This in itself wouldn't be enough, but, Spiritual Energy is also layered and... at the risk of sounding full of fertilizer, due to the retcons to the Lifestream made which turned it from the accumulated life of a planet over time to the accumulated life of a multiverse over eternity, what Sephiroth can resist the weight of that due to the Planet actively trying to dismantle his Spirit. Essentially the resistance to sealing of Sephiroth himself is a 0, which you can't increase by multiplying it, but his Spiritual Energy do have a proper 1 or above that can.

I vaguely recall even in the original FF7 the party can straight up block or otherwise react to attacks that spawn on them (like, in game they do this blocking animation when an attack says it "Miss" on things like Ice2 or whatever Materia spell that spawns on enemies), but if Kirin's constantly moving and teleporting all over the place it might be hard to catch her with a precise attack that spawns on her. The AoE is more likely to work, but assuming this takes place in the Northern Cave or even the place where Sephiroth Reborn was fought in Rebirth then it is also possible for Kirin to straight up jump off the platform and teleport back to avoid things like Heartless Angel, Octaslash, and Ravage (that tornado wind spell thing)- similar to what Gunvolt does with Nova

That mind read though is actually a problem though, though if Sephiroths's reaction is to erect a barrier then Layered Sealing just goes brrr

I didn't really mean that magic and such are unblockable, what I was trying to say is that they can be used to precisely strike on the opponent's position, more effective that projectiles that travel a distance such as Zanshin or Stigma. Remember he also has Flare for a wide area nuke, most of his spells can be turned into AOE and he does use Telekinesis to crush opponents or restrain them (and even mess around with the terrain).

Never thought where this match was taking place. I guess the weird space thingy of Rebirth would be good. Well it doesn't really matters at this point, but the Planet's Core is within the Lifestream and that would mean Kirin would have to fight with the Lifestream on her.

Mind reading actually would tip Sephiroth on Kirin's actions, such as teleporting and where to. Essentially, what she's going to do, how, where, etc. He will know where to aim his next attack, when to defend, to what to defend against, plan ahead and such.

Well yeah, he does have far more incons that Kirin does for the most part. But in this case it's more important of what wincons are used first rather than which one is used. Multiple wincons are important when the topic is relatively complex, but for here its a pretty simple "who hits first"- and if both of their first moves are the wincon then having more attacks that work on Kirin doesn't really change much if any attack works.

In a way yes, it is a who hits first, I wholeheartedly agree there. However, I think the issue of how they would manage to land that first hit is a much more complex situation given the varied abilities both have. And that's discussion I wanted to have. I mean, it's not like it really matters at this point given the match has already been decided, but I really wanted to make my stance at the very least, especially since I really felt that I wasn't really assertive enough with what I truly believed during the first parts of this thread out of fear of being stubborn and whatnot. At least now I am content that at least put my thoughts on the matter.

Honestly I feel more full of crap even entertaining the fact that Kirin unironically has a wincon here by the sheer fact that it's Sephiroth. No one hates Prevasion more than me lol.

No one is invincible I guess, unless you're from those Xhianxia novels or from Shin Megami Tensei, derp.

I can see your frustation in a way. I mean, I am not really into VS threads that much, but if you want to get cool discussions of your favorite character against other cool characters and get noped by a single ability, I can see why it gets grating.

 

[Smashtwig]

The issue I have here is that I don't think it's quite the same. Using electrons as a measure is pretty straightforward as long as the other side also uses matter as a measure, such as matter manipulation or NPI reaching intangible things that can be measured somehow. In that case, you can simply use how small the particles or such that's being interacted with as a measuring stick. But when the wonky stuff comes into the picture, like nothingness, information, concepts, abstracts and such, I think what one has to begin to scrutinize is the defending ability.

What do I mean by this? What kind of wonky and crazy stuff has the defending ability shown to protect from or avoid? Spatial distortions? Voids? Concepual attacks? Data itself? And how potent has been shown to be the NPI the defending ability could protect from or avoid before it stopped being effective? Since we can't just use matter to compare in a straightforward way, use feats themselves. The incoming attack was shown to be able to hit concepts and the defending ability just phased through? Alright, interacting with concepts is not enough to bypass the defending ability. Transduality doesn't exist in the verse of the defending ability and the opponent now can harm transdual beings? Then it's questionable if the ability would avoid it, given there's a lack of evidence that points to it.

I mean, it's not that I don't believe you and I get where the argument comes from, but that's what I meant with the loophole. Simply taking Pervasion for granted, saying if you can't interact specifically with electrons you're untouchable (or that even that is not enough because it's layered) and not really looking for a limitation or truly measuring the other side, especially given how the comparison is no longer straightforward, due to the Pervasion's hard to pin down consistency sometimes feels NLF-ish.

I think I get what your saying- things outside the scope of normal elemental intangibility should just be feat based, and since Type 1 Concepts don't exist in ASG yet, sure I can concede that any attack would work with that kind of logic. I'm just genuinely not sure what is the ruling on this tbh.

Prevasion definitely does come off as an ability that is prone to being used in an argument in an NLF fashion because of its consistency and the "i honestly don't know if X thing really works on it or not" which is why I personally have a dislike for it is Versus Debates- its almost toxic in a way, similar to the "can he get past Gojo's Infinity" arguments that get annoying

This is a bit different. The reason why Sealing is such a bane for Sephiroth is that he lacks a proper feat of resisting sealing on the level of what Kirin can casually do. But his Spiritual Energy on the other hand does have proper feats that show it can't be blocked or sealed, and especially nulled. This in itself wouldn't be enough, but, Spiritual Energy is also layered and... at the risk of sounding full of fertilizer, due to the retcons to the Lifestream made which turned it from the accumulated life of a planet over time to the accumulated life of a multiverse over eternity, what Sephiroth can resist the weight of that due to the Planet actively trying to dismantle his Spirit. Essentially the resistance to sealing of Sephiroth himself is a 0, which you can't increase by multiplying it, but his Spiritual Energy do have a proper 1 or above that can.

Oh... well, this is quite a unique situation. Did not think that Sephiroth and his SE would have different resistance levels to sealing. I guess it would depend on how many layers then (I can’t find em anywhere), because, if Sephiroth really wanted to he can just erect a full body forcefield around himself. If he can do that guard the Northern Crater after the Weapons emerged I don't see why he can't do that here. If the layers are high enough then once the barrier is up I don't think there's much Kirin can really do unless someone claims that Kirin tries kissing Sephiroth to seal him because yes that happened in the game and it turned a giant dragon into a dog- although you can argue that Sephiroth simply... just doesn't erect a full body barrier (honestly why didn't he just make a new barrier after it was destroyed by the Junon Cannon that killed Diamond Weapon) because he just didn't in the games. Or that Kirin could teleport inside the barrier because Arc Chain doesn't actually rely on the talismans.

The lack of defense is mostly how the battle was framed in the original game. As a turn based RPG everyone just stands there taking attacks unless the RNG allows to dodge. In Rebirth, however, being an Action RPG, Bizarro Sephiroth (or Sephiroth Reborn there) is shown to actively defend himself with his wings and use barriers on his weak spot.

I didn't really mean that magic and such are unblockable, what I was trying to say is that they can be used to precisely strike on the opponent's position, more effective that projectiles that travel a distance such as Zanshin or Stigma. Remember he also has Flare for a wide area nuke, most of his spells can be turned into AOE and he does use Telekinesis to crush opponents or restrain them (and even mess around with the terrain).

Oh no what I meant was like, that whole thing for the "Miss" animation in the original game kinda tells me that the party was able to react to attacks that spawn directly on them, so Kirin would be able to do something similar with her teleports. Which can definitely help her escape those Telekinesis holds

Never thought where this match was taking place. I guess the weird space thingy of Rebirth would be good. Well it doesn't really matters at this point, but the Planet's Core is within the Lifestream and that would mean Kirin would have to fight with the Lifestream on her.

Yeah if it's in the Planet's Core I'm 100% sure Kirin gets cooked from just being in that area.

More importantly, mind and memory reading does give Sephiroth full info on Kirin's abilities, he will know that she can seal him with just touching him and that he has to avoid that at any cost.

Mind reading actually would tip Sephiroth on Kirin's actions, such as teleporting and where to. Essentially, what she's going to do, how, where, etc. He will know where to aim his next attack, when to defend, to what to defend against, plan ahead and such.

That is an actual genuine problem that could turn over the match in Sephiroth's favor. But I gotta ask a couple questions about it just in case, because Mind Reading can have different levels of detail, and it's been a long time since I played through the majority of Disc 2 of FFVII, some mind reads could just be surface level thoughts like "Im gon teleport" while others can be more detailed "im going to teleport here" or "im going to teleport here with my talisman" or "im going to teleport here with my talisman because [insert reason]". I did some looking around and the scans related to the topic seem pretty... vague (maybe im checing the wrong scans)? Sephiroth can definitely get some knowledge on Radiant Fetters and could tell that the paper talismans are things he definitely needs to block- but I'm not too sure where to find the part where Sephiroth can tell every little thing a person is gonna do.

While this would normally matter- the memory reading ability alone is actually enough because Sephiroth just... wouldn't need to predict in detail anyways because he can erect that full body forcefield I mentioned earlier. That is of course assuming he can find the memory he is looking for (from what I understand the feat of the memory reading was from when Jenova had to make Cloud act like he knew Tifa, so they saw her and had to sift through memories associated with said person), which may take vital time to decide whether to defend. But also Sephiroth might just be smart enough to erect a barrier anyways

And if it doesn't, then Kirin's seals would simply just... work on... actually most of Sephiroth's attacks as a means of defense too (she can seal concussive energy and some "attacks" too in the form of Image Pulses)- though it might be a bit harder to do that on moves that spawn on her. In addition, Kirin is able to somehow bypass the calculations of someone who is... basically a meant to be a supercomputer of sorts- and could predict all of her moves (that is what is says in JP anyways)

Also, I gotta make sure if it's layered or not, because if it isn't it might not work. I also don't know how it would interact with Mind Resistance as Kirin can withstand Mind Manip from Moebius's Dragon Radiation (basically, Upscaled from 4D but not a layer)- although reading the mind might be different, so- idk.

In a way yes, it is a who hits first, I wholeheartedly agree there. However, I think the issue of how they would manage to land that first hit is a much more complex situation given the varied abilities both have. And that's discussion I wanted to have.

Yeah I get that but it actually isn't too complex if it comes down to "can Kirin's piece of paper nullify the forcefield powered by the multiverse made up of the memories of an infinite amount of people's lives and stories coming together." And if it does... it kinda just does. And if not... uh... then Kirin gets no wincon unless someone argues that Sephiroth doesn't abuse this memory reading on someone comparatively so weak especially if he's not somehow 100% perfectly attacking and defending against every attack from the main party in the OG game.

I mean, it's not like it really matters at this point given the match has already been decided, but I really wanted to make my stance at the very least, especially since I really felt that I wasn't really assertive enough with what I truly believed during the first parts of this thread out of fear of being stubborn and whatnot. At least now I am content that at least put my thoughts on the matter.

This is a totally relatable thing to experience (half the time I say matches are inconclusive is because I don't want to come off as so assertive). But if it makes you feel any better, matches and/or votes that reach any conclusion whatsoever can be nulled/veto'd or whatever if those votes or results comes from a claim that is objectively false or doesn't take into consideration other factors that dramatically affect the match. And honestly if I felt like it I can remove my vote in case the conversation does require further discussion

also Low 1-C Sephiroth will wipe the slate clean if it manages to exist anyways

 

[Smashtwig]

Oh, one more thing about Prevasion that carried over from the first page of this thread, that might make a difference with guards to its defending ability

As said before, idk how the interaction works, but Kirin has showcased Prevading attacks that directly damage her soul, it may not be on a Information/Concept level, but the fact that Prevasion is a factor at all would mean that you'd have to get past it to hit her soul (as in, the soul isn't just floating seperately, suspectible to being hit by soul targetting attacks- because if it was then Prevasion would just... never ever work against those types of attacks, but it clearly did).

If I understand it right, Spirit Energy doesn't damage the concept or information of a person, but rather the soul- which has those properties inside of it. But if you can't hit the soul for whatever reason (in this case Prevasion), you can't really damage the conceptual or informational properties of said soul

Just putting this here to fact check if it makes sense. Kirin is definitely able to Prevade soul damaging attacks, and if Sephiroth’s whole Concept damaging works of off hitting the soul, Prevasion might just… work because Sephiroth would have to make contact with the soul in the first place in order to deal conceptual or informational damage to it right? Unless the concepts and information are seperate things unrelated to the soul that Sephiroth can hit alteratively if he sees he cant hit the soul (as in, "your concept" eather than "your soul's concept")?


If the argument more of stems from Sephiroth being able to hit Nonexistent things... I honestly don't know if that's related to Kirin’s Prevasion situation going on. Because Kirin is indeed  something, a person being able to hit  nothing shouldnt really matter here right? I get that the argument may come from the fact that hitting nothingness is more impressive because it's something that literally doesn't make any sense in real life, but I'm having a hard time relating it to how it would help the case of being able to hit a thing that clearly exists


(Also while I didn't speak to a staff person, a dude that I genuinely trust knows his stuff when it comes to VSB rulings seem to say you need to specifically have a feat to hit a specific type of thing. While i personally dont like it thats what the guy said)

 

[MysticBrawler]

Grace finished.

 

[Smashtwig]

Ebic. I'm just gonna wait for the SOLDIER CRT to complete first before add

 

[TartaChocholate]

Alrighto, given the CRT was finally accepted, Sephiroth's profile has finally been updated. Thanks a million for your patience guys. I added the match with Kirin as well in the new profile so all it has to be done is be added in Kirin's.

@Smashtwig: Given that this is settled, how about we leave the discussion here and pick it up in the future if another GV vs FFVII match comes up? Don't want to come as obstinate given the thread is already decided. I'll try to be more clear from the start in the future, as well.

Just wanna clear one your question regarding Sephiroth's mind reading. It's actually an improved version of Jenova's which she used against the Ancients to read their emotions, memories and find out details like their deepest fears, the people they loved and then diguise as such to deceive and destroy them, which is insisted quite a lot in the story. Kadaj (the Remnant of Sephiroth) has an inferior version that requires contact, which scanned an individual's mind throroughly in just a few moments. You can find the whole explanations and the references in the Jenova Inheritance part of the Spiritual Energy blog.

As why it didn't work against the party, they by that point are too mentally strong to be influenced by Jenova's powers, which is more or less the point of Cloud's story arc. I haven't properly checked Rebirth yet, but given Sephiroth seems to get a proper loss, it seems they actually caught up and wonky RPG scaling set its foot.

Sorry, not gonna annoy you anymore with this.

 

[Smashtwig]

ebic, we might need to re-evaluate Cloud vs GV but I still don't think much changes for that match either

 

[TartaChocholate]

ebic, we might need to re-evaluate Cloud vs GV but I still don't think much changes for that match either

Going to start working on Cloud's profile now. Let me get it done before reopening that discussion so other users know that we're using updated information.

 

[MysticBrawler]

ebic, we might need to re-evaluate Cloud vs GV but I still don't think much changes for that match either

By the way, could you also add this.

 

[Smashtwig]

Sure

Moral of the story is

"Nah I'd Seal"