Lifting Strength inconsistency: AP doesn't downscale?

[Bobsican]

Okay, I'm aware this has been a site standard for several years and all, but this has catched my attention...
In the Calculations page, the following is said:

However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring. If we use real world ratios, when the world's heaviest deadlift is compared to the world's most powerful punch, the deadlift has nearly 5 times more energy, demonstrating the disparity between the two types of movements. Similarly, if telekinesis (or any other ability of a similar nature) is used, the lifting must be performed in a timeframe capable of being used as an attack.

Meaning that we don't use LS to calculate AP because per definition it should be higher (unquantificably so by default of course given how we rate stuff), however, this is entirely ignored when it comes to scaling AP to LS, when going by this LS should inherently upscale from AP. As the Lifting Strength page explains, this comes out of fiction being often ignorant on this detail, which turns the premise above as questionable.

If we can't upscale LS from AP because fiction tends to rate it separately, the reasoning for LS not scaling to AP either needs a rewrite to cover this or we just allow LS to upscale from AP (or more specifically Striking Strength), as currently the Calculations page details on the matter imply that LS should upscale from AP.

 

[KLOL506]

Hmmmmmm. Not knowledgeable about this. DontTalkDT might know more, since he was partially responsible for the revisions to the LS stuff regarding AP and LS, but as it is, he's quite busy.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. This seems to require your attention @DontTalkDT , but there is no great hurry. You can handle this when you find the time.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay, I'm aware this has been a site standard for several years and all, but this has catched my attention...
In the Calculations page, the following is said:


Meaning that we don't use LS to calculate AP because per definition it should be higher (unquantificably so by default of course given how we rate stuff), however, this is entirely ignored when it comes to scaling AP to LS, when going by this LS should inherently upscale from AP. As the Lifting Strength page explains, this comes out of fiction being often ignorant on this detail, which turns the premise above as questionable.

If we can't upscale LS from AP because fiction tends to rate it separately, the reasoning for LS not scaling to AP either needs a rewrite to cover this or we just allow LS to upscale from AP (or more specifically Striking Strength), as currently the Calculations page details on the matter imply that LS should upscale from AP.

For clarity: we use LS feats for AP if it's done quickly... but anyways, as for your question:
How do you intend to calculate LS from AP? AP is in Joules and LS is in Newton. You can't just convert one into the other, as those are completely different things (energy vs force).

 

[Bobsican]

Well, as the Calculations page explains, it'd simply be above AP by default (if it scales to physical stats of course), as LS allows someone to concentrate more properly all the force they can do physically unlike AP (or more specifically Striking Strength for this case). By how much is probably unquantificable, as there's no direct multiplier to generalize for this.

 

[DontTalkDT]

...So a Small Town level character (5*10^12J specifically) should in your opinion have which Lifting Strength Rating?

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Should I call the other calc group members here, or is this an unnecessary discussion?

 

[DontTalkDT]

As long as nobody can answer how AP (a measure of energy) should be converted into Lifting Strength (a measure of force) I don't think there is much of a proposal, really.

Or let me say it like this: The way I see it, the only time an AP feat could be recalculated into a Lifting Strength feat is when said AP feat just so happens to be a Lifting strength feat anyways. E.g. when you calculated the AP from a character lifting or throwing something.
But in that case, the lifting strength calculation would be entirely independent of the AP calculation.
I don't think we need a rule to allow using a lifting strength feat to calculate lifting strength.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is there anything that you would like to change in the Calculations page, for clarification purposes?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Personally? Not really. Never seen anyone have issues regarding this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is it fine if we close this thread then?

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not a calc guy, so I can't say much on the regard of that question confidently.
However, I can still ask this:
How is it claimed that the strongest punch is specifically about 5 times below the strongest lifting IRL? Joules and Newtons should be relatable enought to relate them like that if that can be done, in which case a similar approach is plausible.

 

[DontTalkDT]

How is it claimed that the strongest punch is specifically about 5 times below the strongest lifting IRL?

Idk. If I had to guess we are talking about a measurement of the punch force, not of the punch energy.
I.e. the "strongest punch" in this context isn't in terms of AP.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, the whole premise in the usage of that example in the Calculations page is to showcase how physical AP is kinda inherently below LS, so it'd probably require a rewrite either way.

 

[The_Impress]

As long as nobody can answer how AP (a measure of energy) should be converted into Lifting Strength (a measure of force) I don't think there is much of a proposal, really.

...Multiply by displacement if it exists, Fh if it's done under a region relevantly affected by gravity and someone lifts it from below.

That covers most of the cases, no?

 

[DontTalkDT]

...Multiply by displacement if it exists, Fh if it's done under a region relevantly affected by gravity and someone lifts it from below.

That covers most of the cases, no?

Multiplying by displacement would be converting lifting strength into AP. Yeah, that works for regular lifting strength feat.
However, the proposal is about the opposite. To convert AP to Lifting Strength.
If your AP doesn't come from something that is a LS feat regardless (so that you can divide by displacement) I don't see how that should work.
You can't exactly take, say, the AP from shattering a mountain and turn it into LS.