Let's talk about Fear Manipulation: What qualifies and what doesn't

[Andytrenom]

This kinda ties into an issue I have with social influencing. When the ability was first discussed it was supposed to include intimidation, even exaggerated stuff like instilling fear with presence alone.

But the page then got made by someone without mentioning any of that and that hasn't been fixed ever since

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I suppose I can handle the note for Fear Manipulation, I'll post the suggestion here in a few minutes. As for the types I'm not completely sure how we should go about naming the types of fear manipulation. I was thinking breaking it into 3 types, Psychological, Biological and Emotional. Of course unless someone has a better idea.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Note: Instilling fear into the opponent via previously established authority or through intimidation through sheer strength does not classify as the manipulation of fear. Only character's who've shown to be able to instill fear into others without the aid of intimidation tactics and authority via legitimate means should receive this ability.

 

[SpookyShadow]

I think you should add that this also counts when a far weaker opponent can make you fear (for example, Zushi from HXH scaring Killua with his Nen despite being far weaker)

 

[Antoniofer]

I suggest for not dividing the power into types, like, kinda unnecessary, leave stuff to discuss about to the users, and simply a resume of how it works between (). If people makes other to feel uneasy and with fear by the power of their words its simply Social Influencing, by hormones its Biological Manipulation, by altering the mind its Mind Manipulation.

Also, there was another example, by being unnaturally hiddeous and simply causing fear by looking it into hpthe face, I made the draft for that power, but no one ever commented about.

 

[Antvasima]

@Andy

What do you suggest should be done to fix the Social Influencing page?

 

[Andytrenom]

@Ant at the very least manipulating others through intimidation should be mentioned in the current description

I might be able to think of a more substantial modification given enough time, but not at the moment

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine.

 

[Epsilon_R]

We should specify that making someone scare isn't proof of Fear Manipulation. This is a power that varies case by case. For example, inducing fear via authority/influence doesn't count, same with the fear produced by an insanely large energy felt via ESP. In the latter, the victim is scared because of the power difference, not some ability.

Asta doesn't have ESP yet Yami's aura stunted him so...

 

[Wokistan]

As for the edelweiss thing, that doesn't even really seem like it should be fear manip. Isn't she the strongest dude in her verse or something? How would that method even work on someone who can reasonably fight her and doesn't have some certainty of being killed? Why are we assuming everyone reacts to fear in the same exact way?

This power is just such a mess on this site imo

 

[Agnaa]

As for the edelweiss thing, that doesn't even really seem like it should be fear manip. Isn't she the strongest dude in her verse or something? How would that method even work on someone who can reasonably fight her and doesn't have some certainty of being killed? Why are we assuming everyone reacts to fear in the same exact way?

This power is just such a mess on this site imo

I don't exactly get it, but I think it's something like: Edelweiss picks out a future where they'd die and then shows it to whoever looks at her, that person seeing it makes them believe it'll happen (as well as making them freeze in fear on a soul/instinctual level), and THEN people get fatehaxed into that future actually happening. So it'd work against stronger people since there's always a possible future where she'd win.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

A couple of suggestions:

1- Link to the Empathic Manipulation page and mention that fear manipulation is a subset of that.

2- Limit it to fear induced by energy /aura (inlcuding Chi Manipulation and Magic) or Biological Manipulation (which includes something like fear gas)

 

[Andytrenom]

A little late, but here's how I would change the Social Influencing page

Social Influencing is ones ability to manipulate other characters using some type of persuasion or charisma or both. This has several uses in the form of manipulation. Whether it be to manipulate how an opponent fights, thinks, or to get information from them that the user would want or need. This can be used in a number of ways via their looks, natural charm, way of speaking etc.

While it does not seem combat applicable, this skill can be used in many ways that can affect a fight indirectly, including buying time, obtaining information that could be important, or manipulating how a person might approach a situation.

Some characters might even be able to affect people with their mere presence, going as far as to make them submit out of fear or become completely entranced by their charisma, if not drawing out some other kind of emotional response.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. It looks good to me. I just made a few minor grammar corrections.

 

[Andytrenom]

You think it can be implemented? Or would it be best to have some other opinions?

 

[Antvasima]

We can wait a little if you wish, but it seems uncontroversial to me.

 

[The_Calaca]

It seems fine to me.

 

[Epsilon_R]

What if someone can create a pressure by releasing their aura?

 

[Andytrenom]

@Calaca About my rewrite or the OP?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Affecting people with presence seems supernatural, IMO social influcencing shouldn't be supernatural, if it were then it would fall under empathic or mind manipulation. Best explanation would just be a really good salesman, by the time you realize what he's done to you, you are already holding/in-possession of whatever he was selling to you. Of-course this is just my opinio

 

[Andytrenom]

Well, when we first planned social influence it was agreed that abilities like these (which are exaggerations of charisma and intimidation, instead of directly manipulating mind or emotions of others) should constitute social influencing. The problem was that the page kinda got created by someone on his own and and ended up not reflecting that

 

[The_Calaca]

@Andy yes.

@Muchacho being physically intimidating isn't supernatural. Being incredibly beatiful isn't supernatural. That's what Social Influencing should cover.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

@Andytrenom

Just my opinion is all that I felt that I should share. Exagerations of it is fiction and all which would be supernatural.

@The Calaca

Whether you find a 10 foot scar faced body builder with tatoos or a hamster intimidating depends on the person. Also "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" 'we all have our types.

 

[The_Calaca]

Boa Hancock seduces men, women and even animals that should be asexual by nature with her beauty.

There's people who just with their looks can intimidate other people without a supernatural power. Me threatening you doesn't give me Fear Manipulation.

 

[Andytrenom]

Considering certain versions of intimidation supernatural isn't really a problem, since supernatural refers to anything that is beyond scientific possibility

the differentiating factor here imo, would be that normal fear manipulation or empathic manipulation would be built on controlling something within the target, that is their emotions or bodily mechanism responsible for certain emotion, while social influencing would just be their own characteristics being of such a degree that they cause a reaction within others

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

And that would be fiction. What social influence is trying to do is be, well, universal. Something like;

-"Muh mere presence causes other to feel fear as well as other status effects"

-"Muh mere looks causes other to be charmed"

-"Muh mere voice causes other to feel admiration, muh charm as well other effects"

Maybe we should make a weak hearted or gullible character pages as I really don't see how this exagerated things that somehow aren't being counted as supernatural be useful against someone with at-least the cognitive ability of an average human such as myself. Sorry but you can't really change my mind and this is my last message on this.

 

[Andytrenom]

But I just said it can be counted as supernatural. Certain instances of it anyway, if the ability in general isn't

 

[Andytrenom]

Although it would only technically be supernatural, same way a "normal human" character who is 8-C is technically supernatural, but powers like null or mimicry may not work if he isn't noted to be supernatural in-verse

 

[Antvasima]

A little late, but here's how I would change the Social Influencing page

Social Influencing is ones ability to manipulate other characters using some type of persuasion or charisma or both. This has several uses in the form of manipulation. Whether it be to manipulate how an opponent fights, thinks, or to get information from them that the user would want or need. This can be used in a number of ways via their looks, natural charm, way of speaking etc.

While it does not seem combat applicable, this skill can be used in many ways that can affect a fight indirectly, including buying time, obtaining information that could be important, or manipulating how a person might approach a situation.

Some characters might even be able to affect people with their mere presence, going as far as to make them submit out of fear or become completely entranced by their charisma, if not drawing out some other kind of emotional response.

So is it fine if Andy applies this now?

 

[Agnaa]

@Andy The reason treating it as supernatural is relevant is due to resisting it. From discussions with a lot of people, there isn't really a consensus on this. Some people think that social influencing should only cover naturally possible stuff, while supernatural stuff should fall under mind manip/etc. so it can be resisted. Some people think that no matter how supernatural it is it should stay under Social Influencing and shouldn't be resisted by mind manip/etc resistance.

Do you have any thoughts on this aspect of the topic?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I am OK with Social Influencing including exagerated charisma and intimidation, that would be over the top or unrealistic by real world standards, as long as it is based on personality/apperance/demeanor with no mention of energy or biological manipulation.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Agnaa Supernatural only means something isn't possible in our real world, it says nothing about how the ability actually functions or how it can interact with other things. Thing is even if you resist fear manipulation that works off of manipulating emotions or biological processess, that doesn't mean you resist someone being naturally intimidating to an level, whether or not the latter is supernatural is irrelevant since it's still fundamentally different

 

[Antvasima]

So can Andy update the Social Influencing page now?

 

[Agnaa]

I can't tell if it's relevant to the ways Andy's planning to change the Social Influencing page, but he seems to have a different view on Social Influencing than a lot of staff members. Specifically on whether SI can reach supernatural levels. Here's some examples from this thread:

If the social influencing is supernatural in nature then it probably isn't just social influencing.
	~ GyroNutz​

In clarity, if a character can be convinced to do something, and there isn't a supernatural compulsion for said character to do so, then it is Social Influencing, but if the character is being unwillingly compelled to do something by an extraordinary power, then it is Mind Manipulation
	~ Zark2099​

Though supernatural social infuencing is mind manipulation and not social influencing.
	~ DontTalkDT​

Social Influencing isn't mindhax, but there are characters who influence others with supernatural charisma, which is mindhax, even if it's also Social Influencing.
	~ Promestei​

This is not a supernatural power. By definition, it's something someone suave does like James Bond. It is not a form/subset of mind manipulation, transmutation (looking at you, Weather), etc. It's glorified convincing, in the actual usage of the word.
	~ The real cal howard​

If Andy's suggested change doesn't change anything about supernatural SI then it should be fine, but otherwise I'd like more input on it.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Agnaa Anything that isn't possible in real life, would be supernatural by definition, so that kind of social influencing would technically be supernatural, whether a verse officially recognizes it as supernatural isn't guaranteed tho. This is what I mean when I say SI being supernatural isn't a problem

Either way, it's just a better idea in my opinion to define mind manip as directly altering what constitutes the mind (immaterial thoughts, neurons, whatever, really depends on the verse) and social influencing as saying persuasive things, being naturally charismatic, intimidating etc. without having direct access to anyone's mind but your own.

The two abilities aren't direct progressions of each other, and are based off different albeit related concepts, so it doesn't make sense to differentiate the abilities by potency and not mechanism

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa

Thank you for the information. I agree about that supernatural social influencing should be counted as a form of mind manipulation instead.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa

Thank you for the information. I agree about that supernatural social influencing should be counted as a form of mind manipulation instead.

I still think this.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Acrobatics include things that are athlete level and things that break the laws of physics as we know them; if we use the same standard that would limit social influencing to what is realistic and move the rest to mind manipulation, would we limit acrobatics to what is realistic and move the rest to various forms of physics manipulation?

 

[1997KD]

Did we finish here? Because I need to bump some thread?