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Let's have a talk: Fate & Causality manipulation vs Acasuality

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Rin_The_Dragon_Empress

Rin_The_Dragon_Empress

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This is soemthing that's been bothering me for the longest amount of time since I've seen this argument quite a few times. Often I'll see users that ((insert characters name here)) has Fate hax that can effect type 2-5 Acausality. Users like to say that this isn't an anti feat of the character not having Acausality but the Fate hax is so strong it can bypass such things. However, I've also seen staff members arguing that no matter how petent the fate hax is, it shouldn't be able to effect those with Acausality, and i myself agree.


The point of this thread is to settle this since there seems to be no offical way to handle this at the moment. This is mostly important to versus threads but i figured it was important to handle now. So, to keep this short i propose we take two different paths.


Option #1: We get rid of this "Potent Fate Hax can bypass Acausality."


Or option #2: We keep things the way they are for the time being.
 
Fate Hax varies a lot between verses. Even what fate is exactly is, is in general a very vague concept.

So I don't think there is an answer that applies to all cases. Some works on acausals, some probably doesn't. In total it depends a lot on mechanics (as virtually always).
 
Sometimes its just what it is. Some characters have blatant obvious acausality feats and yet some characters still fatehax them, so we cant just say "its because they actually doesnt have acausality" in some cases
 
Maybe without being known, the Fate hax is just the combination of several powers (such Immunity Bypassing or Power Negation) and people do not go into those details. Similar is Acausality, it may be a combination of all other powers, but people is just limited to separate it into 5 types (reasons why I do not like dividing powers into types).
 
Acausality is being beyond conventional cause and effect to an extent. Types being the different extents. Type 5 is transcending causality. But say causality is a bubble and Type 5 is outside the bubble. Then forcibly put in the bubble. Plausible?
 
Fate and Causality have nothing inherently in common with each other. For example, even an acausal can be bound by fate since fate is not exactly about cause and effect and more so about an inevitable or predestined conclusion.
 
Isn't type 4 resistance while type 5 is immunity? As for fatehaxing type 4, it depends on the context, for example:

>Character stated to transcend fate

>Character gets fatehaxed later on

Would just be resistance negation.
 
I think that Sera makes sense.
 
Guess is possible to affect someone immune to fate by negating, bypassing or anchoring its power, but I doubt it shouldn't work with type 5 Acausality, at that point its already a condition/state of being than a power that can be negated or bypassed.

Anyway, for any Poison there's a cure.
 
I agree with Fate and Causality/Acausality having no relation with each other.

And type 5 Acausality would block Fate Manipulation just as it would block any other power that doesn't werk on Type 5 Acausal character.
 
Is cuz fate is a "common" form of causality, consider it something like probability => fate => causality. That's why we do not qualify powers in the way they are named, but rather how they works.
 
I see no reason why if a character has legitimate acausal feats, if they get fate haxxed then that "debunks" them being acausal rather than it simply meaning the fate hax is potent enough to affect acausal characters. Sure, it may not make sense to some people but what they think makes sense need not apply if what we clearly see in a fictional story doesn't follow that logic.
 
About Fate and Causality, Fate is theorically formed of your Causality but causality form every existing concept but it depend the mechanic of the verse? Fate isn't something that theorically exist in our world so, author use this concept as he want i guess.

About OP's question, well, with the wiki's standard, i want to say that Fate working on another Acausal characters is just a level above the usual fate, affecting another level of "fate" (just like the concept of a concept of a concept ect. those things could theorically exist but it's indeed an assumption) or just "lol he is above the level of your resistance" but since we can't treat this hax like all other "simple hax" like fire, water and stuff (because normally you have only one fate), you can't really apply this logic to it and is probably not possible. It depend how the mechanic of the verse work, it couyld be easily an PIS.
 
ElixirBlue said:
What about the Theory of Narrative Causality that some characters weld as a power in-verse like Zenkichi Hitoyoshi have? If that kinda of power can effect Accusals, what would that mean for Accusals?
Click to expand...
I don't think he should have something like that, it's due to an in-verse skill that allow him to not being "affected" by such things like luck, probability and occasionally "fate" if we take this ability at the highest interpretation (when zero feats has been show anyway), the whole Plot stuff was an-in verse mental problem Ajimu have (even if she has some 4th breaking wall), nothing to do with affecting Acausal being.
 
Zenkichi's Devil Style does have feats. Ajimu's assumptions were all proven true. It was Medaka who came up with a counter theory to Ajima's assumptions while Ajimu was just reading the flow of events which actually went in the direction her Theory of Narrative Causality.
 
The problem is, nothing but our interpretation showed such exemple of Narrative Causality, i don't think we can give ability from "theory", it similar to accepting theories from some verse due to them making sense, the narrative theory do probably make sense, but it's mainly hypotetical to assume that Zen having Narrative Causality stuff due to only that without any further proof of the author in the verse, it's a pretty huge assumption. but again that's nothing to do with Acausality.

This is a pretty good way of Meta story relating tho.
 
Sure, more evidence would be helpful. But there is a few things to note:

Before Ajime's appearance and Zen's Devil Style, Medaka Box's Narrative worked as a standard Shonen narrative formula.

  • Medaka was the MC and it would always be guaranteed from the narrative aspect that she would win.
  • Medaka several times won against her opponents by being able to change their mind and becoming an ally of her's or non Hostile to her.
  • Medaka always mastered a new ability or power to overcome situations that backed her into a corner.
  • Conveniently through the narrative, Medaka always received assistance when she couldn't overcome a situation by outside help.
This all stopped when Ajime molded the narrative into Zenkichi's Devil Style. Medaka was still the MC but in the election, she received no outside help and Medaka has her first true lost from a narrative stand point. Also, no one's character aspects were changed around her to suite her benefit like they had in the past.
 
That's fine, really but I don't think this should be counted as an ability as I've said above, the stuff probably fall into theories and not truly in the lore of the story.

Anyway, too much derailing for now, let's go back in the Acausality subject I guess.
 
Eh, I was just pointing out things like Narrative Causality is stronger than Acausality, due to Acausality characters falling under Fiction.

But ok, back to Fate and Causality Manipulation.
 
There are people like The Presence who seemingly have at least some degree of control over acasual characters. Anyway, Type 1 and 3 Acasuallity may not be effective against Fate Manipulation.
 
I'm not sure about fate and causality having no relationship to each other, since what happens to someone at a further away point of time is definitely linked to causality. What i can agree tho is that the two powers aren't tied together by necessity, and in some cases fate may exist outside causality
 
Fate Manipulation is a subset of Causality. But that being said, there are different levels of both of those depending on the verse. I know I have had characters rated as Type 2 Acausality due to existing "Outside the Passage of Fate". And that was their strongest advantage against some God with Omnipresent levels of Fate Manipulation and Cosmic Awareness, to the point where they see an infinite number of futures.

Other than that, I think Sera makes sense.
 
@Sera & Medeus

So what do you think that we need to do here?
 
It's case-by-case. Fate depends on whatever the verse tells you it is. It's one of those "try-not-to-overthink-it" things.
 
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