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Legend of Zelda: Assorted Speed Buffs and Nerfs?

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@Doctor

As one can see in the Zant video, being exposed to Light kills the twilight beings (or leaves them almost dead, in the case of Midna) yet the Shadow Beasts can still confront the Light Spirits.
 
@Doctor

Well, not "killed", but Ordona do states they stoled his light.

Edit: In the form of Light Tears, which have the ghost-like things that I forgot there names.
 
@Doctor

No. You can't react to the laser pointer, it's instant.

Unless the enemy simply dies on contact, or is durable enough to tank the light, or can avoid their aim.

I think arguing that fodder Shadow Beasts scale to Link is a bit like arguing Goombas scale to Mario because they're about half his speed.

No. If an FTL character gets shot with a bullet that's a low-showing for the character.

No. Aimdodging is entirely possible.

@Cal #1

The point was that there's nothing stating they are made of light in the first place. Also, Dialga isn't time. He just controls and creates it IIRC.

@Lephyr

Regular light does not kill the Shadow Beasts, they are blatantly standing in it in the same scene they beat Ordona in.

@Cal #2

No. Again, light doesn't work like that. Darkness doesn't "consume" light, it's just the absence of it. The fact that the Shadow Beasts can physically steal the Light Spirit's light is indicative that it's just magic, not real light.
 
@Doctor

I was referring to the post where you said @Xcano, the other post came after that. There's no evidence they ever avoided light though, it doesn't even look like the Light Spirit fired a single shot.
 
No. It's like arguing that heartless scale to keyblade wielders. And we do that.

False.

Although the much more powerful Midna has to turn into a shadow to exist. Hm... Also, note how they have a twilight...thing hovering above them whenever they're found, and only come out when portalled down.

Read Matt's response to you on the original thread and stop bringing that up. Authors give f*** all about your real life qualifications. If they say it's real light and go out of their way to show some qualities, then it is.
 
@Xcano

Except it wasn't really "physically", since the Light Tears aren't exactly physical.

Natural light doesn't hurt them, but the spirits light can. Why would Lanayru try attacking Zant with it if it doesn't do a thing?

And before you say the Spirits Light =|= Real Light, watch ALL the videos of them. It behaves like real light, although shinier, and comes from a being made of said light.

"But it can be stolen, and light shouldn't be stolen"

Souls can't be stolen too, yet Link stoles them with his bare jaws in this game.
 
@Xcano

My bad, I let myself get ninja'd and didn't specify that I was addressing Lephyr. And, pretty much what Cal said. But thank you for specifying about the laser pointer and taking time to address my points in general! Cal is right, though.

EDIT: And we see the light attack shining through the entrance to the area.

Oh, and I think Cal referred to the bit about Dialga being false, not what you said about the laser pointer.
 
@Cal

We do that for high tier Heartless that are an actual challenge, bosses. We most certainly would not scale these things to Tier 4.

I assume "False" is referring to the bullets thing? I suppose Batman is MFTL+ then. He's reacted to Wally, after all, so all those bullets must've just been really fast...

They are standing in broad daylight just fine.

What qualities? They don't show any qualities. They're just bright, that's it. And no, we have a page on what constitutes "real light" for a reason.
 
@Xcano

Relative (light pun?) arguement; moot because the Shadow Beast pulled off a FTL feat anyway.

Now you got ninja'd, too (so I guess that means I'm going to get ninja'd again next...). But if Cal did refer to that, remember that light fired by a magic spirit =/= a bullet from a regular gun as far as these things are concerned. It's a bit of a case-by-case basis, of course.

Regular daylight =/= attack from a light spirit.

We established this towards the beginning of the thread, but the point is practically moot compared to the actual feat we have, so let's not obfuscate things.

EDIT: Whew, I didn't get ninja'd...
 
@Lephyr

"Except it wasn't really "physically", since the Light Tears aren't exactly physical."

Irrelevant. The fact it can be stolen at all means it doesn't behave like real light.

"Natural light doesn't hurt them, but the spirits light can. Why would Lanayru try attacking Zant with it if it doesn't do a thing?"

Lanayru doesn't try attacking Zant. Zant just blasts it while it's staring at him.

"Souls can't be stolen too, yet Link stoles them with his bare jaws in this game."

How do you know souls can't be stolen? Have you done research on them?

-----

@Doctor

"EDIT: And we see the light attack shining through the entrance to the area."

That's not the attack. It screams when that happens, that's the Shadow Beasts "killing" it. If that was the attack it would've been literally impossible for the Shadow Beasts to dodge regardless of how fast they are, as it was going in every direction and there was only one way out.

"remember that light fired by a magic spirit =/= a bullet from a regular gun as far as these things are concerned"

I wasn't saying the light is slow because bla bla bla scaling. I was just saying that lightning isn't fast because it hits characters.

------

@Cal

Do you have a source on Dialga being time? The Pokedex just says it made/controls it and the profile's got nothing on it.
 
@Xcano

Pardon my disrespect, but it just seems funny to me that you are arguing applying all science and logic, and want to also apply them to a concept that same science denies as real (souls).

"Lanayru doesn't try attacking--"

Yes, a being that it knows is consuming the world it so dearly wants to protect has appeared without invitation to his domain, it would just stare at it. He though the Light would damage him but it didn't and got blasted away.

How do we know it's as such? Because he tried the same thing with Midna, and it actually worked.

Edit: It wasn't stolen physically = cannot be applied the same threatment as if it was a physical action. In this case, being denied it's actually physical light.
 
@Lephyr

"Pardon my disrespect, but it just seems funny to me that you are arguing applying all science and logic, and want to also apply them to a concept that same science denies as real (souls)."

I'm saying we don't know how souls work, but we do know how light works. It's entirely possible that, if souls were real, we could just trap them in a bucket. We don't know because they aren't real.

"He though the Light would damage him but it didn't and got blasted away."

Can you show me where Lanayru attacks? He just appears and then looks at Zant for a while, then Zant blasts him away. There's no beam or anything, Lanayru just... sits there.

"How do we know it's as such? Because he tried the same thing with Midna, and it actually worked."

How what is as such worked how?

"Edit: It wasn't stolen physically = cannot be applied the same threatment as if it was a physical action. In this case, being denied it's actually physical light."

Again, light can't be stolen under any circumstances. That defies how it works. You can't cut it off and trap it like that. And yeah, it is stolen or at least can be contained physically. You put in in a physical object, the Light Vessel, and then you return it.
 
@DarkLordofShadows

Kirby has more than 1 feat supporting FTL speed though, and none of those feats are questionable in how they're presented. This is more like if Kirby had 1 feat saying he was MFTL+ because he dodged a generic laser gun and then 5 instances where he gets tagged by lightning. Meanwhile Kirby in actuality has some 3 or 4 undeniably FTL feats and only 2 of the things you provided actually show him moving slower-than-lightning without resorting to background lightning.
 
@Xcano

Yes, again, the being which he knows is stoling all light in the world, trying to merge it with Twilight (plot of the game); he would just sit there and stare at him. Again, he thought the light would hurt him, but didn't. When Zant made him appear again, the light then hitted Midna and she was almost killed.

"light can't be stolen under any circumstance" Nor can it be manipulated without the use of mirrors, gravity or electromagnetism. Are we going to say Kizaru has those last two? Or any other light manipulator, really.

And again, the Light Tears are not exactly physical.
 
LordXcano said:
[Quite a few things.]
Click to expand...
Fiction. Being able to possess the ability to fire light from one's fingertips doesn't make the light irrelevant due to it being unrealistic.

We know that the spirit's light hurts dark beings and that dark bings can dodge light.

Fiction. Also, huh?

Stating that it was an omnidirectional light is an assumption; we see it moving in only one direction and not shining over the walls on the other sides. Besides, the source of the light is on the ground, so we know that it didn't originate from the position we see Ordona in. This can be explained if we acknowledge that it was an attack with a direction, not an passive omnidirectional thing. And before anyone argues that Ordona exploded while on the groung or something like that, remember that Ordona had the high ground and was also levitating. Ordona attack, but got dodged and attacked.

It was really fast lightning, not slower characters.

Dialga's aside the point and bringing that up for discussion here is derailing the thread.

[The other post]

Fiction. Also, huh?

I'm not sure about this with Lanaryu. We could say he didn't bother because, in the immortal words of Silver, it was no use; but we've got nothing to go on in favor or opposition of that idea, so let's drop that.

I think he referred to Midna getting hurt.

Fiction.
 
We have all seen many good evidences, and I believe we can now reach a consensus, whatever that may be. After all, Xcano is the only one still in active oppostion, but his relevant points, however politely and intelligently stated, have been refuted by normal users and staff alike. I'm off to bed. Thank you all, both in support and opposition to the upgrades, for the intelligent input. Have a good evening, all!
 
@Lephyr

"Yes, again, the being which he knows is stoling all light in the world, trying to merge it with Twilight (plot of the game); he would just sit there and stare at him. Again, he thought the light would hurt him, but didn't."

Why would Zant believe that Lanayru's ambient light would hurt him when even the Shadow Beasts can survive that without problem? Not to mention, your point was that the way Lanayru's light behaves in that scene is realistic, yet he doesn't do anything there.

"When Zant made him appear again, the light then hitted Midna and she was almost killed."

Difference between Midna and Zant is that Midna was actually touched and encompassed by the light.

"Nor can it be manipulated without the use of mirrors, gravity or electromagnetism. Are we going to say Kizaru has those last two?"

There's a difference between generating light and making light do things light cannot actually do. Just like there's a difference between a simple "shooting fire out of my hands" and "shooting fire out of my hands that is capable of freezing objects and healing people". One is clearly not real fire.

"And again, the Light Tears are not exactly physical."

They aren't, but they can be held physically, which is what I was saying.

------

@Doctor

"Fiction. Being able to possess the ability to fire light from one's fingertips doesn't make the light irrelevant due to it being unrealistic."

See my thing above, about the fire manipulator.

"Stating that it was an omnidirectional light is an assumption; we see it moving in only one direction and not shining over the walls on the other sides."

Omni-directional for all practical intents. It goes to the sides to hit the wall, and straight forwards to go outside the cavern. They couldn't have jumped up, otherwise they would've hit the tree brush and we would've seen them. They couldn't have dodged to the side, otherwise the would've been hit. And they couldn't have dodged backwards, otherwise we would've seen them again.

"It was really fast lightning, not slower characters."

In that case, how do you prove that Batman isn't MFTL+ for reacting to MFTL+ characters? I can just keep saying that X thing was actually MFTL+ in speed over and over again. This is an unfalsifiable argument you're making.

"Fiction. Also, huh?"

You can't just keep saying "Fiction" over and over again. Like the above fast lightning thing, it's unfalsifiable. Akin to saying "God works in mysterious ways".
 
@Xcano

The other way... Why would Lanayru would just stare at him? And he (Lanayru) would know it should hurt him, because as it has been stablished from the beginning (by Midna, and even Lanayru tells why in his scene), that Light hurts the Twili. What Lanyru doesn't know is that Zant is being protected with Ganondorf's magic. That why he tried attacking him and it didn't worked.

Second point supports my argument, so thank you.

Ah, and that analogy doesn't work. Why? Because light in the game behaves like light would, except ONLY that it can still be grabbed. The same I could say for almost every verse that has light manipulation.

Edit: About the light not being held physically. So do souls (spiritual), and Link can still grab them with his jaws...again. And again, Kizaru can hold light with his hands. Your point?
 
@Lephyr

"What Lanyru doesn't know is that Zant is being protected with Ganondorf's magic. That why he tried attacking him and it didn't worked."

Alright, I'll concede. Lanayru attacked Zant. The only problem is that is that your argument was that Lanayru's attack against Zant proved Lanayru was real light. Which it didn't, it didn't act like light at all in that scene.

"About the light not being held physically. So do souls (spiritual), and Link can still grab them with his jaws...again. And again, Kizaru can hold light with his hands. Your point?"

You bring up souls again even though you don't have any proof souls can't be held physically. Souls aren't real, their properties change depending on the author. If souls were real and they couldn't be held physically then I'd see your point, but you're basically saying:

"Well your argument is that Link can't bounce light like a ball, but he can also bounce a Jub Jub beast (Metalogical)"

What's a Jub Jub beast? What does metalogical mean? How do we know a Jub Jub beast can't be touched? What scientific evidence is there for that?
 
Bud, you're really reaching with your science analogies. Souls not being intangible. What? That's something most, if not all fictions use.

Also, as a theist, please drop using "souls aren't real".
 
The fact that said light arrows in-game fire at similar speeds compared to in-game arrows shows that the light arrows are not lightspeed, because this would mean that Link's regular arrows would have to move lightspeed, which clearly isn't.

  • Again, the light arrows do not look/move as a completely straight line, akin to a laser pointer
  • Nowhere does it say that it is light speed for the light arrows.
  • Nowhere has the light arrow in any Zelda game look like the picture below, as that is how real directed light would look like.
Laser-Pointer-Plane 024160582468
I still think that LordXCano brings up the better points to this equation.

And again, there is a limit how much you can leave it as fiction, and not as an actual feat. For example, The FTL Touhou calcs and Ryu Hayabusa's lightning dodging calcs all use the gameplay instead of cutscenes, and we still count those.

The only legit speed feats that I see are Onox's speed calc, and Calamity Ganon's Moon moving calc as both of those feats are shown directly to us without anything contradicting it.
 
@Cal

"Souls not being intangible. What? That's something most, if not all fictions use."

Well clearly Zelda is not one of them.
 
Lanayru attacked Zant with light. Does that confirm that Lanayru is light? No. It only shows that he can control it, which was confirmed earlier by Ordona. Zant didn't move at all, which meant he was immune to it. He didn't show any speed feats whatsoever. Lanayru also didn't move out of the way when Zant blasted him. Does that make Zant's attack faster than Lanayru. Not nessacerily. Does that make Zant's attack faster than Lanayru can react? Perhaps, but Unfalsifiable. Besides, it took about 1.5 or so seconds for the attack to actually hit Lanayru, so I doubt that speed is the issue here.

EDIT: Crap, that was a lot of Ninjaed messages.
 
I'm also loving how everyone is ignoring the fact that the entire plot of the game would only work if said light is true light. Because that's what the game revolves around. Light, as in sunlight, darkness, as in the absence of light, and the inbetween, twilight.
 
@Cal

"So, once again, false."

Great, so either way the point about him touching souls is completely irrelevant to the fact that the Light Spirit's light is stealable by people without that power.

"the entire plot of the game would only work if said light is true light"

Why?

Also, what are we arguing here again? We already dropped the Light Arrows, because Ganon doesn't dodge them in TP. And I don't think we're arguing about the Light Spirits being made of light anymore, just whether or not the light they produce is made of normal light. But nobody reacts to that anyways. So what are we doing?
 
@Xcano

As showed in the Ordona video, the Shadow Beasts do. And how didn't Lanayru's light behave like real light? You keep bringing that, but the only argument I see of it is because it can be stolen, which is still a weak argument.

Edit: "...is stolen by people without that power" What? The Twilight in the game consumes light...but they don't have the power to steal it?

Edit: Why the plot of the game wouldn't work if they don't steal real light? Because what Zant wants is merge the "Light World" (real world, as touched by light) with the "Twilight World", as instructed by Ganondorf.
 
@Lephyr

"As showed in the Ordona video, the Shadow Beasts do."

What do you mean "as shown in the Ordona video"? We don't see anything at all, it happens off-screen. And as I pointed out above, it's impossible for them to have dodged regardless of how fast they are. What happens is:

  • Shadow Beasts approach Ordona
  • Camera cuts
  • Ordona screams, light goes everywhere
  • Twilight takes over
What seems more likely. The Shadow Beasts are way faster than they've ever appeared, dodged despite that being physically impossible regardless of speed, Ordona screams in pain for no reason, and then the Shadow Beasts go back and "kill" Ordona as the attack was still going on. Or, Ordona was just undergoing "death throes" and that's the light we see.
 
"Light goes everywhere" >Shows the light going in one direction.

"Physically imposible"

So... You're saying that a character faster than light... Can't dodge light...
 
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