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Legend of Zelda: Assorted Speed Buffs and Nerfs?

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Well, I suppose that FTL might be okay then, but I would prefer to see more input.
 
As further confirmation, Puppet Ganon was stated to be weak to rays of light, and said rays of light are the Light Arrows. Also, it is called divine light in ALBW.
 
Okay then.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
If you scrutinize literally any fiction you can find instances where characters are slower, doesn't mean their higher feats are fake.
Thor may have over 10 MFTL+ feats, but he has thousands upon thousands of instances where he isn't portrayed as such, but that doesn't disprove the feats.

Gold Saints are stated repeatdly to only be Lightspeed / Base FTL, that doesn't make their MFTL+ feats wrong.

Jedi never showcase their EU speed-feats in the movies, but that doesn't disprove them.

Your examples don't prove that the MHS+ feat is false.
Click to expand...
By that logic, Dante's MFTL+ speed feat during DMC1 final boss battle shouldn't be considered an outlier either, right?
 
@Operator

That may be true, but please let us not change the subject.

EDIT: Oh, right, I should actually give input. Well, as far as the moon feat is concerned, it should be valid for a speed feat because if Ganon can send the moon moving at such a speed, he can surely do so with his energy projection. Besides, we have an aplenty of predecent for granting speed ratings based on throwing feats, and this isn't very much different.
 
I think the Light Arrows in BotW are the closest thing we have to the Light Arrows behaving like real light, as they actually leave a trail when fired. But I'd still like to see their speed compared to your regular arrows. It's also worth noting that the Light Arrows are shown to just be arrows tipped with light , handled no differently than any other arrow aside from the fact you don't run out of them.

Also, I was wrong in my calc on how much faster Link's reactions are during the "time slow" bits in BotW. Going by this gif we can see time goes from 1 second/1 second to 0.03-0.04 seconds/1 second.

Since the timer goes down by 0.04 seconds every third increment, this means the "time slow" is a 30x boost to reaction speed. That would make this result Mach 10.54 rather than Mach 1.76.
 
"Ordona Faro

Notice how the orbs are radiating light in the Ordona video. Same orbs used to make the Light arrows. Notice how, in the Faron one, restoring him gives light to the whole scenery; natural light. That's there powers. The same power used in the light arrows." - Copied from the other thread.

Here's the video of the Light Arrows being created and used in combat. They do travel in a straight line. (See picture)

Both BOTW and TP supports the FTL and Light Arrows = Pure Light.

LightArrows-TP
 
Your normal arrows travel in a straight line too but that doesn't make it as fast as light. They don't go out in a continuous beam and they literally look like this. They may be made of light magic and-or emit light, but they are not a beam of light.

The idea that the Light Arrows aren't real light, just arrows imbued with light is even confirmed in-game several times:

"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) to power up your arrows. The light of justice shall target evil!""

"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) and your arrows will be powered up! The light of justice will smite evil!"

"You got the Light Arrow! When you take out your bow, use [R] to change arrowheads, then fire away. The sacred light of these arrows can pierce pure evil itself!"

"You got the Light Arrow! Now, you can fire arrows filled with sacred light!"
 
LordXcano said:
Bullets travel in a straight line too but that doesn't make it as fast as light. They don't go out in a continuous beam and they literally look like this. They may be made of light magic and-or emit light, but they are not a beam of light.
The idea that the Light Arrows aren't real light, just arrows imbued with light is even confirmed in-game several times:

"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) to power up your arrows. The light of justice shall target evil!""

"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) and your arrows will be powered up! The light of justice will smite evil!"

"You got the Light Arrow! When you take out your bow, use [R] to change arrowheads, then fire away. The sacred light of these arrows can pierce pure evil itself!"

"You got the Light Arrow! Now, you can fire arrows filled with sacred light!"
Click to expand...
That is clearly not the case in BotW and Twilight Princess though. Also the Bow of Light Ôëá Light Arrows.

The guardians in BotW shoot blue beams of light which Link is capable of reacting to and parrying at close range.

The arrows you linked to look like they are made of light to me.
 
@Doc

I already discussed why the Guardian beams aren't light above and Cal was fine with it. Also this does not look like light, this is what light looks like.

As for BotW, as far as I am aware the Light Arrows used in that game are the same ones used in Twilight Princess.
 
@Xcano

The arrows in that first picture are made from pure light. It's literally in the three videos I linked. The first two establish that the Light Spirits deal with natural light, same light that in the next video is used to make the Light Arrows.

Edit: Is funny that you show a laser, given my picture of how the Light Arrows looks when fired.
 
@Lephyr

Light Spirits aren't made of light. They are imbued with light, just as the arrows are. In actuality, they are just physical manifestations of the area they protect. Lanayru, for example, is:

"The embodiment of the land of Lanayru, this magical spirit takes the form of a snake and resides in the spring near Lake Hylia."

In addition, Faron in the video says that their "light" is not actually light, rather the "life force of the gods". And no, they do not bring natural light to the area. They disperse the Twilight, and that allows the Su to bring back light to the area.

So, in conclusion.

  • Multiple statements from several games say the Light Arrows are just arrows charged with light magic
  • The Light Spirits themselves say their light is just the "life force of the gods", not normal light
  • Ordona says that their light is less light and more magical power that can be stolen
  • In the same game, the Light Arrows do not behave as light, they emit light from an arrow that, for all other intents and purposes, is completely normal
 
It seems you have not played The Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess, where Zant with Ganondorf powers covered Hyrule and other areas in darkness, Link was able to freed the land covered by darkness thanks to the Light of the magical spirits like Lanayru, only their pure light was able expire that darkness. The Light arrows are charged and rappresent the same thing.
 
@Xcano

"Arrows imbued with light" Video shows arrows being created by orbs of light.

"They just disperse the twilight" With light. Link is tasked with searching the "light tears" stolen from them, and use that to disperse the twilight. In the Faron one; "The vessel of light is full of tears, and light has returned to this area!"

Where does Ordona says there light is "less light", exactly?

"The black beast you slayed was a shadow being. It had come to seize the power of light I wield." If you're referring to that, "seizing there power of light" brings darkness to the land they protect. So... How are they "less light"? Because it can be stolen?

About the "life force of the gods" thing... Faron said he used that to protect the forest. And we know he is referring to light, which again, is natural light.

You keep linking that picture, but ignore the video where they are created. From what? Orbs of light.
 
I know the arrows in TP are made by the orbs, I was pointing out that in most games they are just imbued with light. Therefore, it isn't unreasonable to assume the arrows in TP are a physical casing w/ light magic in them.

Yeah, I know that the Light Spirits disperse the Twilight. That is exactly what I said. They don't, however, make the natural light in the area. The Sun does that.

It doesn't say it's "less light", it says that their "light" is just a manifestation of their power.

Yes. Light can't be stolen like that.

Yes. That's what I said. So when he says "light" he is referring to the power of the gods.

See above. Also, as for your point about the laser looking like the arrow when fired, it doesn't. The laser is a continuous beam, it doesn't falter. The arrow just has a trail of light behind it, which cuts off after a while unlike natural light. In addition, we can see from near the bow the light spreads outwards, which means that the arrow simply has light emit from it, otherwise it would be parallel to the arrow.
 
LordXcano said:
@Doc
I already discussed why the Guardian beams aren't light above and Cal was fine with it. Also this does not look like light, this is what light looks like.

As for BotW, as far as I am aware the Light Arrows used in that game are the same ones used in Twilight Princess.
Click to expand...
That was before we knew that it was outright stated to be a beam of light... Link has the ability to deflect attacks with a parry, that would include light based attacks.
 
If I threw a lantern, I'd be throwing a source of light but that doesn't make someone who dodges it sub-rel or faster-than-light. The same applies with the light arrows.
 
@Doc

Honestly I'd say out of everything here the Guardian beams are the most light-like attacks in the series. They do have some unnatural properties but they still have a lot more backing them up than the Light Spirits/Arrows IMO. So if we are gonna discuss lightspeed Zelda I'd prefer it be the Guardian lasers, it'd be way easier to convince me on that.
 
Do we have enough information to reach a consensus? I think we do, especially with the good points and sources Doc and Lephyr brought up, but it would be good to hear from others, too. If there is anything that requires screenshots to be considered acceptable evidence, I am willing to try my best to help in that regard.

Also, what do you all think of using the eclipse feat as a speed feat?

EDIT: Kind of ninja'd by AMM and Xcano.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
If I threw a lantern, I'd be throwing a source of light but that doesn't make someone who dodges it sub-rel or faster-than-light. The same applies with the light arrows.
Click to expand...
  • The whole point of Twilight Princess is that there's...twilight. And this affects the Light Spirits too. Most of them which emit light from their balls, like a lightbulb. And the twilight blots them out like normal light. As in the light spirits are fully rendered gone if twilight hits them. It's likely that the Light Spirits are made of light. Zant can blast Lanayru before he reacts, and the lighbulb balls are used to make the light arrows this game (and Light Arrows are defined as infused with light regardless) along with the bow. It's not a true wooden/steel weapon this time. Which would make Zant and Ganon FTL in this game.
 
LordXcano said:
@Doc
Honestly I'd say out of everything here the Guardian beams are the most light-like attacks in the series. They do have some unnatural properties but they still have a lot more backing them up than the Light Spirits/Arrows IMO. So if we are gonna discuss lightspeed Zelda I'd prefer it be the Guardian lasers, it'd be way easier to convince me on that.
Click to expand...
They have no deal breaking unnatural properties... The standard which you are putting Zelda to is put to no other verse.
 
Doc, you raise very good points, but let's be careful with our wording. I know you mean no offense to Xcano, but you know how context and connotations can be lost in a medium such as an Internet forum.

Anyway, let us hear what the others have to say.
 
@Doc

Bulging, being reflectable by non-reflective surfaces, having a physical weight, exploding, and cutting off after a certain point are all unnatural properties for the Guardian laser.

  • The Light Arrows in BotW are no different from any other game, they are regular arrows tipped with light and cut off after a certain point, you can also see that the light expands outwards, meaning that it is just tipped with light/emitting light, not literally moving as a beam of light
  • I think you are misinterpreting how darkness works. Darkness does not blot out light, darkness is just the abscence of light. The fact that light can be interacted with and "taken over" like this is, if anything, indicative that it isn't normal light. Otherwise, just being in the shade would be "Twilight".
 
@Xcano

Light can't be stolen like that, you say? Link captures souls in bottles in Ocarina. Carry them and rip them from ghosts in TP without even needing a container. Can those be stolen like that? Of course not. This is a magic verse, where beings of literal twilight and darkness comes and take light away from the world, something which the Light Spirit are task of stopping. Through there power they give light back to the world, same power that is used to make the Light Arrows. Saying it was simply the sun contradicts the fact that you need to collect the Light Tears to disperse the Twilight.

Taking away light from the Spirits = light fades in the area and Twilight invades.

Restoring the Light Spirits = the light in the area is restored and Twilight vanishes.

Edit: And for the record, being in the Twilight Realm forces a normal being into a ghost form. Link resists this thanks to the ToC, but turns into a wolf as a result. The things that stole light can only be spotted with Wolf's Link perception, the same that spots the Poes. So, it wasn't a physical being that stole the light, but by stoling it, the physical world became engulfed in Twilight. And again... The Light Spirit's task is to maintain that same light.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
If I threw a lantern, I'd be throwing a source of light but that doesn't make someone who dodges it sub-rel or faster-than-light. The same applies with the light arrows.
Click to expand...
Was that lantern made of light, too? Not valid in this case.
 
LordXcano said:
@Doc
Bulging, being reflectable by non-reflective surfaces, having a physical weight, exploding, and cutting off after a certain point are all unnatural properties for the Guardian laser.

  • The Light Arrows in BotW are no different from any other game, they are regular arrows tipped with light and cut off after a certain point, you can also see that the light expands outwards, meaning that it is just tipped with light/emitting light, not literally moving as a beam of light
  • I think you are misinterpreting how darkness works. Darkness does not blot out light, darkness is just the abscence of light. The fact that light can be interacted with and "taken over" like this is, if anything, indicative that it isn't normal light. Otherwise, just being in the shade would be "Twilight".
Click to expand...
Yet when actually fired it's clearly a beam of light, not a wooden arrow . Also you do realize that light can be solid in the real world.

Using the Bow of Light ingame > inventory screenshot
 
@Lephyr

How do you know souls can't be stored physically? We've never studied them. Light cannot be stored. There is no way you could "steal" the light from a flashlight. You could take out the battery, sure, but you can't lift up a bucket and then steal it.

I know that restoring the Light Spirits brings light back. I'm saying you're misinterpreting the cause-effect relation here.

Bringing the Light Spirit back does not bring natural light to the area. Bringing the Light Spirit back destroys the Twilight, which allows the Su to bring natural light back.

This is like turning on a flashlight and then removing a wall blocking it. The person removing the wall didn't bring light into the next room, the flashlight did, they just removed the thing obstructing it.
 
Except that that is not what is shown in the game, Xcano.

Ordona: "...it had come to seize the power of light I wield." >Video showed the light from Spirit being stoled = Light vanishing from the area

Faron: "The Vessel of Light is full of [Light Tears], and light has returned to this area!" >Proceeds to show light coming back after the Vessel is used.

"...I use the life force of the gods to protect this forest." >Being a "light spirit", which force is he talking about? Light.


Who is misinterpreting was happening in the scenes?
 
">Video showed the light from Spirit being stoled = Light vanishing from the area"

The Spirit vanishes, which then allows the Twilight dimension to take hold.

">Proceeds to show light coming back after the Vessel is used."

You're leaving parts out here. The light comes back, but only after the Twilight is removed from that area.

">Being a "light spirit", which force is he talking about? Light."

Yes. But, again, light isn't a divine life force or even a force at all. He is talking about light magic, or the magical properties associated with light. Not natural light itself.
 
@Xcano

First point agrees with what I'm saying, really.

We stablished that twilight covered the area, no? It would've been redundant. And you make it sound as the Twilight leaved and then light came back, which is not what is shown.

Except that in Zelda, Light IS a divine force. The Light Force.

Edit: And again, what you're proposing contradicts what is shown.
 
I only got one answer to the question I dedicated this thread to ;-;
 
Well, after reading all of the above, I am uncertain regarding the issue.
 
LordXcano said:
@Lephyr
How do you know souls can't be stored physically? We've never studied them. Light cannot be stored. There is no way you could "steal" the light from a flashlight. You could take out the battery, sure, but you can't lift up a bucket and then steal it.

I know that restoring the Light Spirits brings light back. I'm saying you're misinterpreting the cause-effect relation here.

Bringing the Light Spirit back does not bring natural light to the area. Bringing the Light Spirit back destroys the Twilight, which allows the Su to bring natural light back.

This is like turning on a flashlight and then removing a wall blocking it. The person removing the wall didn't bring light into the next room, the flashlight did, they just removed the thing obstructing it.
Click to expand...
This is simply wrong yet again. Light can be stopped and stored in the real world. The linchpin of your argument is incorrect.

You are holding Zelda to a standard that no other verse is held too.
 
DocAnimeTheory said:
This is simply wrong yet again. Light can be stopped and stored in the real world. The linchpin of your argument is incorrect.
Click to expand...
"There are four quantum numbers that identify the "address" of a particle; principal, azimuthal, magnetic, and spin. The light was never "stopped". It was translated to other particles to change their energy levels and address, when the energy levels are restored to their previous state, they necessarily emit a (or some) photons of light of the exact same properties (wavelength and frequency) as the original light that was converted. And they could do nothing else but convert to the exact amount of energy then reconvert to the exact type of light. So the light (energy) was conserved in both processes. Saying it was "stopped" leaves a completely wrong impression."

Dude in the comments said it better than I could.
 
I agree that the Light Arrows from TP and BotW may indeed be pure light. However, this does not confirm that A) they are able to travel at the speed of light, or B) characters in the series can scale to this. In TP, if a light arrow bypasses Ganondorf, he isn't dodging it. You're simply missing. He does dodge light arrows in WW, but the WW light arrows are just regular arrows infused with light.

The light spirits also do not control the light. They simply protect it. When the Shadow Beasts (which, BTW, are actually really slow, and yet we're saying that Zant is FTL for blasting Lanayru? Really?) came and defeated the light spirits, Twilight was able to move in. If the Light Spirits controlled the light, defeating them would turn off the sun. Is it turned off? No. Besides, it's not like the Twilight has absence of light anyway. If there was no light, you wouldn't be able to see a thing.

I've never agreed with speed scaling from Onox. Even if Onox himself can move that fast, how the heck would characters scale from him? He doesn't move that fast in the fight with him, indicating that Link doesn't scale. We don't see any other characters keeping up with him when he is travelling this fast. And most importantly, how can we say that Ganon is faster simply because he's stronger? That makes no sense.

I also disagree with the Blood Moon feat, because it's described as "Ganon's power grows in the Blood Moon", and not as "Ganon creates the Blood Moon to boost his power". The Blood Moon is simply an event that happens on its own, and Ganon doesn't have control over when it appears. Otherwise, why wouldn't he leave it there? It's honestly more like Sozin's Comet from Avatar than "Oh look, Ganon moved the moon".
 
"... Link... Link... Be on your guard. Ganon's power grows... it rises to its peak under the hour of a Blood Moon. By its glow, the aimless spirits of monsters that were slain in the name of the light return to flesh. Link...please be careful."

Oh, huh. Well, this isn't the thread for AP revisions, but Lasatar is right on that point. Blood Moon just seems to be something that happens.
 
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