-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Legend of Zelda: Assorted Speed Buffs and Nerfs?
- Thread starter ThePerpetual
- Start date
- Status
- 302
- 21
Except it happens during his battle... (Or am I crazy?)
- 15,614
- 7,053
The Blood Moon happening at any time other than midnight is confirmed to be a glitch.
Just an FYI.
Just an FYI.
- 40,457
- 12,924
You don't have that authority.
- 9,340
- 9,821
It appears he isn't the one causing it, and that it is, indeed, a natural occurrence that happens to empower him.
Also, I concede on the Light Arrows SoL based on Lasatar's argument. Which let us with the Guardian and Beamos (from OoT, MM, ALttP, Oracle and Link's Awakening games) thing, and even I admit that is iffy.
Also, I concede on the Light Arrows SoL based on Lasatar's argument. Which let us with the Guardian and Beamos (from OoT, MM, ALttP, Oracle and Link's Awakening games) thing, and even I admit that is iffy.
- 9,720
- 8,455
There's a MHS+ OR mhs somewhere buried in the nf.....
- 32,343
- 20,267
I don't see why we should downgrade it. MHS+ is fine.
- 40,457
- 12,924
I don't even agree with Lastar's comment.
- 2,334
- 312
@Dark
Yeah I agree with cal, you jumped the gun a little fast there. I believe it wasn't caused by Ganon, but that was a bit too soon.
Anyway I went through several Zelda blogs on NF and I found these:
(High Hypersonic+ because the average of these feats is Mach 44, and Ganon's flight is closest to that. If we factor in the Onox feat the average is still just Mach 360/Massively Hypersonic.)
Yeah I agree with cal, you jumped the gun a little fast there. I believe it wasn't caused by Ganon, but that was a bit too soon.
Anyway I went through several Zelda blogs on NF and I found these:
- Ganon blitzes the Sages (Mach 1.84)
- Link's arrow speed (Mach 15.64)
- Ganon's flight speed (Mach 63.5)
- Giant's running speed (Mach 129.6)
(High Hypersonic+ because the average of these feats is Mach 44, and Ganon's flight is closest to that. If we factor in the Onox feat the average is still just Mach 360/Massively Hypersonic.)
- 925
- 525
This feat has not yet been fully addressed. As far as Lastar's logic is cincerned, he has yet to form any good case for the light spirits not possessing light speed. All he has argued is that defeating the light spirits did not eradicate all light everywhere (oh, and I guess he hazards that enemies being slow in gameplay is significant, but that isn't the point). He did not acknowledge, much less disprove, the fact that the light spirits are made of actual light and should be capable of attacking and moving about as fast as such. Just because Lastar and Xcano have made some possibly correct points (some of which I still find to be highly dubious) does not mean they have put the validity of the other FTL feats out of the question altogether.GimmyJibbsJr said:
- 2,334
- 312
I already addressed the fact the Guardian beams have every unnatural property in the book and it's likely just a random post-apocalyptic Hylian saying things he doesn't know about.
The Light Spirits, as Lastar said, aren't made of light, they just control it. They are actually just magical manifestations of the land around them. Combine that with the fact they were beaten by the incredibly slow Shadow Beasts, them being lightspeed is very dubious at best.
Then, on top of that, add at least 5 instances where characters are completely immobile compared to lightning (which is much slower than light) and things start looking even more iffy.
The Light Spirits, as Lastar said, aren't made of light, they just control it. They are actually just magical manifestations of the land around them. Combine that with the fact they were beaten by the incredibly slow Shadow Beasts, them being lightspeed is very dubious at best.
Then, on top of that, add at least 5 instances where characters are completely immobile compared to lightning (which is much slower than light) and things start looking even more iffy.
- 9,340
- 9,821
@Xcano
"They are actually just magical manifestations of the land around them."
Um, what? The game never says that. Lanayru just said that the goddesses called them to seal the fused shadows. And you also need to prove that they aren't made of light. Just saying they aren't is not enough, specially considering all the points we've made to prove they are, indeed, made of light.
And that last thing about the Shadow Beasts doesn't really hold up. Does Star Wars character move anymore faster than a human? Both in the animated shows and movies.
"They are actually just magical manifestations of the land around them."
Um, what? The game never says that. Lanayru just said that the goddesses called them to seal the fused shadows. And you also need to prove that they aren't made of light. Just saying they aren't is not enough, specially considering all the points we've made to prove they are, indeed, made of light.
And that last thing about the Shadow Beasts doesn't really hold up. Does Star Wars character move anymore faster than a human? Both in the animated shows and movies.
- 40,457
- 12,924
Heck. Iirc, Shadow Beasts don't even interact with the spirits. They're there to keep intruders from intruding.
- 925
- 525
Ah, I wasn't specific; my bad. I referred to what Xcano mentioned in the above quote. I thought this was worthy of discussion. However, I can't find the footage due to my device which I am using to use the internet right now. Would someone kindly provide a link (pun!) to the feat?LordXcano said:
But anyway, of the Light Spirits: what exactly has dispelled the notion that they are not made of light? Surely their being magical manifestations of the land around them is not enough to refute this arguement. Furthermore, they can still control light; can they not attack with actual light as well?
Lastly, the arguement of using such things as the Shadow Beasts does not sit well with me. Recall that King Dedede looks slow compared to the rest of the Kirby cast, yet his speed is well into MFTL+ territory. What exactly are we comparing the Shadow Beasts to in terms of speed, anyway? And does the ubiquitous factor of cinematic timing account for the lightning?
- 9,340
- 9,821
@Doctor
I will try and search for that, tho' if someone else would be kind enough to provide, it would be awesome. (I'm trying to avoid too many spoilers of the game)
I will try and search for that, tho' if someone else would be kind enough to provide, it would be awesome. (I'm trying to avoid too many spoilers of the game)
- 40,457
- 12,924
Speaking of Kirby, he doesn't look fast according to all the shooting stars and lightning going on in his battles with Magolor and people like that. Does that make him not MFTL+? Goku and Frieza didn't move when lightning strikes were happening on Namek. Does that make them not FTL+?
- 9,340
- 9,821
- 925
- 525
@cal
Exactly. If we used this line of reasoning, we would have to scale Kirby from a bunch of falling apples.
@Lephyr
Many thanks! Now is the time to determine if there is anything of interest here...
@Xcano
Did Lephyr's link provide that of which you spoke?
Exactly. If we used this line of reasoning, we would have to scale Kirby from a bunch of falling apples.
@Lephyr
Many thanks! Now is the time to determine if there is anything of interest here...
@Xcano
Did Lephyr's link provide that of which you spoke?
- 2,334
- 312
@Lephyr
"The embodiment of the land of Lanayru, this magical spirit takes the form of a snake and resides in the spring near Lake Hylia."
They are stated to be the embodiment of the land. The Shadow Beasts we know to be slow because they aren't even much faster than the guards Zelda has. They beat them easily, yeah, but the guards still reacted well enough.
@Cal #1
The Shadow Beasts casually stroll up and defeat the Light Spirits in less than 10 seconds.
@Doctor
Sure, they can attack with light. But so can I. Me having a 200W laser pointer doesn't mean I'm lightspeed though.
As for the Shadow Beasts, see above. Speed is comparable to regular human guards.
And no. Cinematic timing is for when something is actually faster/slower than it appears. In this case it's characters being completely unable to dodge lightning, which means they'd be slower than it.
@Cal #2
You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying "Link looks slow therefore he is". I am saying there are numerous instances where, despite going all out, Link/Ganon are still much slower tha lightning/electricity.
In this case it isn't "Goku deciding to stand still" or "Goku looking slow compared to some background lightning". This is lightning and electricity being an integral part of the fight and someting you interact with, yet you are still completely still compared to how fast it is.
"The embodiment of the land of Lanayru, this magical spirit takes the form of a snake and resides in the spring near Lake Hylia."
They are stated to be the embodiment of the land. The Shadow Beasts we know to be slow because they aren't even much faster than the guards Zelda has. They beat them easily, yeah, but the guards still reacted well enough.
@Cal #1
The Shadow Beasts casually stroll up and defeat the Light Spirits in less than 10 seconds.
@Doctor
Sure, they can attack with light. But so can I. Me having a 200W laser pointer doesn't mean I'm lightspeed though.
As for the Shadow Beasts, see above. Speed is comparable to regular human guards.
And no. Cinematic timing is for when something is actually faster/slower than it appears. In this case it's characters being completely unable to dodge lightning, which means they'd be slower than it.
@Cal #2
You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying "Link looks slow therefore he is". I am saying there are numerous instances where, despite going all out, Link/Ganon are still much slower tha lightning/electricity.
In this case it isn't "Goku deciding to stand still" or "Goku looking slow compared to some background lightning". This is lightning and electricity being an integral part of the fight and someting you interact with, yet you are still completely still compared to how fast it is.
- 9,340
- 9,821
@Xcano
Where in the game, or the HH, was that stated?
Where in the game, or the HH, was that stated?
- 925
- 525
@Xcano (my points below are in no particular order, I guess)
I agree that we need to know more about how Link can interact with the Guardians' "laser-pointer."
Scaling the Shadow Beasts to people they casually destroy is a very bad idea.
We still have nothing tho lead us to conclude that the Light Spirits are not made of light. This fact and the facts Lasatar have brought up are not at odds with each other, and discarding the first fact does not make the latter more or less sensible. Furthermore, we know they can manipulate real light and that they can bestow other things with properties of real light. What prevents us from concluding they cannot move about or attack as such? The "human with a laser pointer" case cannot apply here because the Light Spirits are made of light (and should move about like such), manipulate light, and must contend with beings that can react to the speed of their light attacks on a regular basis.
As far as Cal is concerned, he is saying that the validity of these legit light feats is being questioned mainly because of the background lightning stuff.
I agree that we need to know more about how Link can interact with the Guardians' "laser-pointer."
Scaling the Shadow Beasts to people they casually destroy is a very bad idea.
We still have nothing tho lead us to conclude that the Light Spirits are not made of light. This fact and the facts Lasatar have brought up are not at odds with each other, and discarding the first fact does not make the latter more or less sensible. Furthermore, we know they can manipulate real light and that they can bestow other things with properties of real light. What prevents us from concluding they cannot move about or attack as such? The "human with a laser pointer" case cannot apply here because the Light Spirits are made of light (and should move about like such), manipulate light, and must contend with beings that can react to the speed of their light attacks on a regular basis.
As far as Cal is concerned, he is saying that the validity of these legit light feats is being questioned mainly because of the background lightning stuff.
- 925
- 525
@Lephyr
Where the spirit statement is? I would like to know as well, but it really has no weight in the matter. There are too many light-like properties possessed by the Light Spirits to chalk it all up to their nature as spirits. Doing so would be employing mass generalizations and dismissing large groups of facts as being coincidences.
Oh, and to the uninitiated, HH is shorthand for Hyrule Historia, an official guidebook.
Where the spirit statement is? I would like to know as well, but it really has no weight in the matter. There are too many light-like properties possessed by the Light Spirits to chalk it all up to their nature as spirits. Doing so would be employing mass generalizations and dismissing large groups of facts as being coincidences.
Oh, and to the uninitiated, HH is shorthand for Hyrule Historia, an official guidebook.
- 9,340
- 9,821
- 2,334
- 312
@Lephyr
The paricular quote I was using, the one for Lanayru, comes from page 14 of the official game guide. It's repeated for all the other spirits as well.
@Doctor
He doesn't really "interact with" the laser pointer at all. If he did I wouldn't even be bothering to argue this. The put the pointer on him and then track him with it for a few seconds before they fire.
They have no other speed feats. In fact, I'm not really sure why I need to argue that the Beasts are slow when they have nothing suggesting they're fast.
Except, as I showed with the above quote, they aren't made of light. They are embodiments of the land that control and hold light. There's nothing suggesting they can turn into it though, nor is there anything that reacts to their attacks. I don't think they attack at all really in the entire game.
Well, for one, it isn't just background lightning. It's people being tagged by lightning on multiple occassions. And secondly I'm questioning them because there's literally no feats suggesting the Light Spirits are genuinely lightspeed, and their light doesn't display any natural properties. The only thing supporting them being light is just them saying they're light, and I haven't seen anybody source this quote to begin with.
The paricular quote I was using, the one for Lanayru, comes from page 14 of the official game guide. It's repeated for all the other spirits as well.
@Doctor
He doesn't really "interact with" the laser pointer at all. If he did I wouldn't even be bothering to argue this. The put the pointer on him and then track him with it for a few seconds before they fire.
They have no other speed feats. In fact, I'm not really sure why I need to argue that the Beasts are slow when they have nothing suggesting they're fast.
Except, as I showed with the above quote, they aren't made of light. They are embodiments of the land that control and hold light. There's nothing suggesting they can turn into it though, nor is there anything that reacts to their attacks. I don't think they attack at all really in the entire game.
Well, for one, it isn't just background lightning. It's people being tagged by lightning on multiple occassions. And secondly I'm questioning them because there's literally no feats suggesting the Light Spirits are genuinely lightspeed, and their light doesn't display any natural properties. The only thing supporting them being light is just them saying they're light, and I haven't seen anybody source this quote to begin with.
- 9,340
- 9,821
- 2,334
- 312
@Lephyr
The Light Spirits aren't made of the Light Tears though. Eldin lived just fine without them. He was depowered, but he had no problem living without his light. If anything, I think this should dispel all notion that they are made of light, otherwise they'd be dead without the Light Tears. They seem to just be regular spirits that use the Light Tears to manipulate it.
The Light Spirits aren't made of the Light Tears though. Eldin lived just fine without them. He was depowered, but he had no problem living without his light. If anything, I think this should dispel all notion that they are made of light, otherwise they'd be dead without the Light Tears. They seem to just be regular spirits that use the Light Tears to manipulate it.
- 598
- 23
"O brave youth... I am one of four light spirits that protect Hyrule at the behest of the gods. I am Ordona. The black beast you slayed was a shadow being. It had come to seize the power of light I wield."
This is what Ordona says when you first encounter it. It simply says that it wields the power of light, and never anything about being made of it. None of the other spirits say that they are made of light either. This heavily denies the idea that the light spirits are made of light.
This is what Ordona says when you first encounter it. It simply says that it wields the power of light, and never anything about being made of it. None of the other spirits say that they are made of light either. This heavily denies the idea that the light spirits are made of light.
- 9,340
- 9,821
They can't manifest without light being in the area, light they generate and control. The tears dispell the twilight, bringing light (and them). Zant needed to dispell the Twilight so Lanayru could come back and kill Midna with it's light.
- 925
- 525
I can provide screenshots of the game guide, but I can't get it today. Here is a link to a digital copy. The download was safe for me, but use it at your own discretion, of course.
@Xcano
I'm just wondering if he can react to it and block the laser pointer or anything like that,.
If the Light Spirits can manipulate light, they can surely attack with it as well. If light is dangerous to certain enemies, the Light Spirits wouldn't have to worry about anything unless their enemies were so fast that they could dodge the light.
The Shadow Beasts should scale to the Light Spirits and Link, not just some fodder. Recall my Kirby analogy.
If a character dodges lightning, that connotes a fast character, not slow lightning. If an FTL-ish character cannot escape a lightning attack, that connotes unusually fast lightning, correct? But since we have not yet come to an agreement on the other feats, let's save this for a bit later.
Ultimately, it all boils down to the Light Spirits being able to manipulate light, which is a major threat to certain entities but being unable to defeat said entities due to the speed of said entities. Is this reasonable?
@Xcano
I'm just wondering if he can react to it and block the laser pointer or anything like that,.
If the Light Spirits can manipulate light, they can surely attack with it as well. If light is dangerous to certain enemies, the Light Spirits wouldn't have to worry about anything unless their enemies were so fast that they could dodge the light.
The Shadow Beasts should scale to the Light Spirits and Link, not just some fodder. Recall my Kirby analogy.
If a character dodges lightning, that connotes a fast character, not slow lightning. If an FTL-ish character cannot escape a lightning attack, that connotes unusually fast lightning, correct? But since we have not yet come to an agreement on the other feats, let's save this for a bit later.
Ultimately, it all boils down to the Light Spirits being able to manipulate light, which is a major threat to certain entities but being unable to defeat said entities due to the speed of said entities. Is this reasonable?
- 40,457
- 12,924
That quote means...nothing. They have he power of light. So? Dialga had the power of time. That instantly means that he isn't time. See what I can do with misinterpretations?
- Status
Similar threads
