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Another round to the Shinza revisions~
Introductio
Before we get into this, I would like to remind everyone that this is based off entirely and taken from my blog I made HERE for this revision just like the past couple you have seen most likely. As you probably have skimmed through it, it WILL be a long read but it's both a thing I do and one I try to get to the point as soon as possible right after I start typing down what I will be saying soon.
That said, let's get on to the thread here.
Removal of Conceptual Attacks Resistances
To start things off, we have the LDO's resistances to conceptual attacks. That's nice and dandy and all, but here lies the problem: It doesn't have a justification. As in, there's nothing written for it for people to understand to what extent they're resistant against from this kind of attacks.
Reinhard's the only one known who has an actual justification to resisting conceptual attacks, that coming from Machina himself who states his very fists, his sole weapon in fact, are as good as trash against him. And those who are familiar with DI just enough should know that his fists are dangerous for even someone like Methuselah here to note of its power and his potential destruction from it. And again, Machina's are useless against Reinhard like said and linked above.
But of course, this is only Reinhard himself who has an actual justification. Granted it's now merged with EE as "Conceptual Existence Erasure" resistance but he has an actual justification for it nonetheless.
Now onto the actual purpose and relevance here, this part mainly started out of a question that asked if the LDO (well more like one of them but it relates to literally everyone sans Reinhard, who I may have to repeat here, HAS an actual reason people can know about) have conceptual attack resistance. ALRF, now going by as SleepyTBubble, said they shouldn't. Another user came on there and said that comes from their Holy Relics, which is stated here. However, ALRF/SleepyT said that the "concepts" in their Holy Relics takes up the form of a poison that negates/greatly hinders their Regenerationn, which comes to a problem as to what even is their resistance to conceptual attacks in the first place if their Holy Relics aren't actually dealing conceptual attacks but instead a poison that affects their Regenerationn.
Which comes up to my next part.
Note: Reference to the thread linked here.
Addition of Regenerationn Negation
Basically, Holy Relics are considered bad for anyone to get hit by it, more so if used against beings like the LDO themselves. And, as said above before, Holy Relics can apparently negate (or at least greatly hinder) Regenerationn. An important matter to mention here a bit first is that anyone of them with their Holy Relics are capable of regenerating even from their own soul alone as long as there's nothing hindering their Regenerationn as demonstrated by Shirou who, as a bodiless soul, usurped the Relics of Bey or Rusalka in Rea's and Marie's routes respectively, using them to reform his body instantly even while still inside them (since he was devoured by them earlier in those routes) and becoming an Apostle from there. This means just about anyone of them with an HR (Holy Relic) are able to regenerate even as just a soul. Having other souls also helps as it's used to heal from any injuries to their bodies (tho it's not much of a hindrance as anyone who reaches Yetzirah won't die from physical destruction nor from even lethal wounds as bad as this) to put their bodies back to full fighting condition.
But to get the actual point here, Holy Relics are very bad for beings like the Apostles themselves. While normally anything that WOULD harm their body or reduce them to nothing just their soul wouldn't do much as they just instantly regen their bodies back, fights between Apostles have shown that it can affect their Regenerationn pretty badly overtime. This is notably shown in Shirou vs Wilhelm, where Shirou tries to kill the latter with the newly acquired Relic of Rusalka and using them to enhance his Desert Eagle which, while normally something that shouldn't harm let alone kill Bey, left bullethole marks on his arm when he blocked them. Because it was a gun that was enhanced with the power of a Relic, Bey's arm still wasn't healed from it throughout their fight. Then ofc comes the major wounds Bey suffered that cost him an arm and part of his head to be blown off by Shirou, who in turn gets a hole deep enough to go all the way out his back. Both of them DID start to heal up but it was sometime after trading said lethal wounds and talking, and even then Shirou still had a hole in his chest despite healing up sooner than Wilhelm, who started to follow right after to the same speed as he was recovering.
Now while I couldn't find anymore concrete examples of this, just here alone in this fight tells us that injuries dealt by a Holy Relic can be lethal for other Holy Relic users, and even should they still be able to heal up it's hindered to a point that they can't heal/regen right away.
Addition of NPI
Most likely the one that's just straight to the point and no big talking, the LDO's Holy Relic's (once again) is related as this is their weapon when going on the hunt for souls and for fighting anyone (including amongst themselves). The kind of NPI they have is simply being able to attack souls with no body, which obviously should be taken as just them being able to interact with souls whether they have a body or not.
Although there is a possibility that this could just be another application of soul manipulation but it's something of note to add I guess.
Machina, I believe, also has more justifications of NPI, as he punched out Cain when the latter was using Beatrice's Briah which turns the user into literal lightning itself, and Interview has stated his fists can end anything whether it has a shape or not, which can include stuff like lightning and fire as well as concepts like darkness itself, which would make sense for him to have in order to end the "story" of any phenomena he hits. And ofc Reinhard has this as well by extension I assume.
Edit: To make things clear here, I'm not suggesting or implying that the LDO should have NPI like that of Machina's and Reinhard's. Those guys are on a league of their on what they can interact with compared to the rest, who can only affect souls with or without bodies (tho there seems to be more stuff for the rest outside of Machina and Reinhard perhaps).
Conclusion
TL;DR version:
Agree: 11 (Ionliosite, TISSSG7Redgrave, Ravenous4th, PsychoWarper, Ecstasy Amphetamine, SleepyTBubble, Archaron, Tony di bugalu, Magisinbad, Warren Valion, Monarch Laciel (but disagree for NPI))
Disagree:
Neutral/Inconclusive/Other:
Introductio
Before we get into this, I would like to remind everyone that this is based off entirely and taken from my blog I made HERE for this revision just like the past couple you have seen most likely. As you probably have skimmed through it, it WILL be a long read but it's both a thing I do and one I try to get to the point as soon as possible right after I start typing down what I will be saying soon.
That said, let's get on to the thread here.
Removal of Conceptual Attacks Resistances
To start things off, we have the LDO's resistances to conceptual attacks. That's nice and dandy and all, but here lies the problem: It doesn't have a justification. As in, there's nothing written for it for people to understand to what extent they're resistant against from this kind of attacks.
Reinhard's the only one known who has an actual justification to resisting conceptual attacks, that coming from Machina himself who states his very fists, his sole weapon in fact, are as good as trash against him. And those who are familiar with DI just enough should know that his fists are dangerous for even someone like Methuselah here to note of its power and his potential destruction from it. And again, Machina's are useless against Reinhard like said and linked above.
But of course, this is only Reinhard himself who has an actual justification. Granted it's now merged with EE as "Conceptual Existence Erasure" resistance but he has an actual justification for it nonetheless.
Now onto the actual purpose and relevance here, this part mainly started out of a question that asked if the LDO (well more like one of them but it relates to literally everyone sans Reinhard, who I may have to repeat here, HAS an actual reason people can know about) have conceptual attack resistance. ALRF, now going by as SleepyTBubble, said they shouldn't. Another user came on there and said that comes from their Holy Relics, which is stated here. However, ALRF/SleepyT said that the "concepts" in their Holy Relics takes up the form of a poison that negates/greatly hinders their Regenerationn, which comes to a problem as to what even is their resistance to conceptual attacks in the first place if their Holy Relics aren't actually dealing conceptual attacks but instead a poison that affects their Regenerationn.
Which comes up to my next part.
Note: Reference to the thread linked here.
Addition of Regenerationn Negation
Basically, Holy Relics are considered bad for anyone to get hit by it, more so if used against beings like the LDO themselves. And, as said above before, Holy Relics can apparently negate (or at least greatly hinder) Regenerationn. An important matter to mention here a bit first is that anyone of them with their Holy Relics are capable of regenerating even from their own soul alone as long as there's nothing hindering their Regenerationn as demonstrated by Shirou who, as a bodiless soul, usurped the Relics of Bey or Rusalka in Rea's and Marie's routes respectively, using them to reform his body instantly even while still inside them (since he was devoured by them earlier in those routes) and becoming an Apostle from there. This means just about anyone of them with an HR (Holy Relic) are able to regenerate even as just a soul. Having other souls also helps as it's used to heal from any injuries to their bodies (tho it's not much of a hindrance as anyone who reaches Yetzirah won't die from physical destruction nor from even lethal wounds as bad as this) to put their bodies back to full fighting condition.
But to get the actual point here, Holy Relics are very bad for beings like the Apostles themselves. While normally anything that WOULD harm their body or reduce them to nothing just their soul wouldn't do much as they just instantly regen their bodies back, fights between Apostles have shown that it can affect their Regenerationn pretty badly overtime. This is notably shown in Shirou vs Wilhelm, where Shirou tries to kill the latter with the newly acquired Relic of Rusalka and using them to enhance his Desert Eagle which, while normally something that shouldn't harm let alone kill Bey, left bullethole marks on his arm when he blocked them. Because it was a gun that was enhanced with the power of a Relic, Bey's arm still wasn't healed from it throughout their fight. Then ofc comes the major wounds Bey suffered that cost him an arm and part of his head to be blown off by Shirou, who in turn gets a hole deep enough to go all the way out his back. Both of them DID start to heal up but it was sometime after trading said lethal wounds and talking, and even then Shirou still had a hole in his chest despite healing up sooner than Wilhelm, who started to follow right after to the same speed as he was recovering.
Now while I couldn't find anymore concrete examples of this, just here alone in this fight tells us that injuries dealt by a Holy Relic can be lethal for other Holy Relic users, and even should they still be able to heal up it's hindered to a point that they can't heal/regen right away.
Addition of NPI
Most likely the one that's just straight to the point and no big talking, the LDO's Holy Relic's (once again) is related as this is their weapon when going on the hunt for souls and for fighting anyone (including amongst themselves). The kind of NPI they have is simply being able to attack souls with no body, which obviously should be taken as just them being able to interact with souls whether they have a body or not.
Although there is a possibility that this could just be another application of soul manipulation but it's something of note to add I guess.
Machina, I believe, also has more justifications of NPI, as he punched out Cain when the latter was using Beatrice's Briah which turns the user into literal lightning itself, and Interview has stated his fists can end anything whether it has a shape or not, which can include stuff like lightning and fire as well as concepts like darkness itself, which would make sense for him to have in order to end the "story" of any phenomena he hits. And ofc Reinhard has this as well by extension I assume.
Edit: To make things clear here, I'm not suggesting or implying that the LDO should have NPI like that of Machina's and Reinhard's. Those guys are on a league of their on what they can interact with compared to the rest, who can only affect souls with or without bodies (tho there seems to be more stuff for the rest outside of Machina and Reinhard perhaps).
Conclusion
TL;DR version:
- Remove all LDO members sans Reinhard's conceptual manipulation resistances
- Add Regenerationn Negation (up to Low-Godly) to LDO + Shirou and Ren
- Add Non-Physical Interaction to LDO + Shirou and Ren
Agree: 11 (Ionliosite, TISSSG7Redgrave, Ravenous4th, PsychoWarper, Ecstasy Amphetamine, SleepyTBubble, Archaron, Tony di bugalu, Magisinbad, Warren Valion, Monarch Laciel (but disagree for NPI))
Disagree:
Neutral/Inconclusive/Other:
