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Lady Bernkastel vs Nyarlathotep

Can someone explain to me her full capabilities and nature? There seems to be a lot of fragmentary bits of information here, and @Azzy, since you're likely an expert on both series, could you do so if possible? I'm confused as to where I should rank the characters up against each other. I'm not wholly familiar with Umineko's cosmology.
 
@Aeyu

I would not consider myself an expert on WtC. I haven't fully went through Umineko in a few years, which I plan to do again, at some point.
 
Well, regular humans and everything I described in this post, including Bernkastel (it will be her weakest manifestation), can be placed within a single Layer...

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I would not consider myself an expert on WtC.
Click to expand...
Even I can not consider myself an expert on WTC...
 
But where does Bern's true potentiality lay? How many "layers," are there? How much is the qualitative distance between each "layer"? That would help scale this battle in a more effective way, as I've been going through a lot of Lovecraft's work as of recent (within the context of the thing) to determine Nyar's true potential as well; Nyar also has a number of lesser and greater avatars that are 1-A as well, and several who transcend existence and all concepts as well.
 
But where does Bern's true potentiality lay?

Only the Creator has a higher rank than the Voyagers.

How many "layers," are there?

Infinity/Numberless. Within a single Domain.

How much is the qualitative distance between each "layer"?

I talked about this here.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
What about Featherine?
Click to expand...

Featherine is something abnormal. She's like Creator- or Voyager+. Although she is superior to anyone as a being. I'm not at all sure that there is some kind of metaconcept that she embodies.

If we compare the cosmology of WTC with the Cthulhu cosmology, then Featherine is more like Nyarlathotep than Yog-Sothoth (actually Voyagers together are more like Yog-Sothoth). She is like the avatar of the Creator or something. Even "Featherine" is still just a role.
 
Well, after all this, I think I'm gonna have to go with inconclusive. Umineko's cosmology seems just as complex and intricate as CM, if not more elaborate in some areas, and I don't think it's really conclusive either way.

@Dark

I noticed that there are Voyagers/Voyager ranked individuals even more powerful than Bern; does that apply to just her avatar or her true form (Such as Ange and Battler, who are 1-B but 1-A+ through hax)
 
I noticed that there are Voyagers/Voyager ranked individuals even more powerful than Ber

It's only because Lambda and Bern (manifestations) limit themselves to a greater extent than those beings. This does not apply to their unconscious natures, which initially surpasses these limitations. And there are no more important laws for the whole Creation than they are.

Such as Ange and Battler, who are 1-B but 1-A+ through hax

They all will also be 1-A with a large margin and with an even greater margin through hax.
 
I already said that I'm just giving equivalent arguments and nothing more.
 
So...precisely how far above baseline is By a? Infinity^infinity for making baselines look like 10-B's? Or is just infinitely greater?
 
Lightbuster30 said:
So...precisely how far above baseline is By a? Infinity^infinity for making baselines look like 10-B's? Or is just infinitely greater?
Click to expand...
I think that it isn't quantifiable, and here's why:

Basically, many 1-As are scaled buy "how strong are compared to the baseline 1-A"

Example: Taykyokus are kind of like domensions, or something, so you having one more than another 1-A makes you trans-infinitely above him.

Hjun has infinite Taykyoku, by this logic, he should be the strongest 1-A, but why did he lost to Nyar?

... Well, from what i understand, the ptions are 2:

1) Backwards scaling

While Hajun is an infinite amount of times trans-infinitely above a baseline 1-A, Nyar is simply depicted as "just below Yog Sothoth, aling with the other Outer Gods"

So basically, he and the others are just below a High 1-A, while Hajun is simply and infinitely strong 1-A.

2) Concetpual trascendence

Nyar and the outer gods trascend so many concepts, that is imposible for them even to fight, to end, or even to change at all, while Hojun is only an impossibly strong guy. However, in the 1-A scale, if you trascend certain concepts that other 1-As don't, your automatically unquantifiably superior to them.

This are the possibly motivations, from what I understand.
 
>Hjun has infinite Taykyoku, by this logic, he should be the strongest 1-A, but why did he lost to Nyar?

Hajun has Immeasurable Taikyoku that is infinitely rising.

Also Hajun (Or really Gods in general in Shinza Bansho) transcends concepts. so the 2) is moot.

1) Don't think that's how it works.


Also ain't Nyar like, the weakest Outer Gods from what i heard?
 
I think that it isn't quantifiable, and here's why:

Basically, many 1-As are scaled buy "how strong are compared to the baseline 1-A"

Example: Taykyokus are kind of like domensions, or something, so you having one more than another 1-A makes you trans-infinitely above him.

Hjun has infinite Taykyoku, by this logic, he should be the strongest 1-A, but why did he lost to Nyar?

... Well, from what i understand, the ptions are 2:

1) Backwards scaling

While Hajun is an infinite amount of times trans-infinitely above a baseline 1-A, Nyar is simply depicted as "just below Yog Sothoth, aling with the other Outer Gods"

So basically, he and the others are just below a High 1-A, while Hajun is simply and infinitely strong 1-A.

2) Concetpual trascendence

Nyar and the outer gods trascend so many concepts, that is imposible for them even to fight, to end, or even to change at all, while Hojun is only an impossibly strong guy. However, in the 1-A scale, if you trascend certain concepts that other 1-As don't, your automatically unquantifiably superior to them.

This are the possibly motivations, from what I understand.

Yeesh, is it even possible to beat an elder god?
 
Lightbuster30 said:
I think that it isn't quantifiable, and here's why:
Basically, many 1-As are scaled buy "how strong are compared to the baseline 1-A"

Example: Taykyokus are kind of like domensions, or something, so you having one more than another 1-A makes you trans-infinitely above him.

Hjun has infinite Taykyoku, by this logic, he should be the strongest 1-A, but why did he lost to Nyar?

... Well, from what i understand, the ptions are 2:

1) Backwards scaling

While Hajun is an infinite amount of times trans-infinitely above a baseline 1-A, Nyar is simply depicted as "just below Yog Sothoth, aling with the other Outer Gods"

So basically, he and the others are just below a High 1-A, while Hajun is simply and infinitely strong 1-A.

2) Concetpual trascendence

Nyar and the outer gods trascend so many concepts, that is imposible for them even to fight, to end, or even to change at all, while Hojun is only an impossibly strong guy. However, in the 1-A scale, if you trascend certain concepts that other 1-As don't, your automatically unquantifiably superior to them.

This are the possibly motivations, from what I understand.
Click to expand...
Yeesh, is it even possible to beat an elder god?
The only solution is making a character just making a character just as complex as them, and them making someone more powerful, while still being below an High 1-A, but I'm not ven sure.

To me, things like the Outer Gods of Chtulu Mythos are simply unscalable by our tiering system because of how difficult they are to quantify. It's like the Outer Gods would be High 1-A if Yog Sothoth was 0, which would be the case if Azathoth wasn't there.

Same thing with Umi Neko: Bern would be High 1-A if Featherine was 0, which she would be if it wasn't for the Creator.
 
There is no such thing as a weakest outer god. Only that Nyar is the outer god with the least authority. Weak applies to fighting or power which is something that the outer gods transcend by virtue of their nature.

Nyar already transcends 1-As that transcend 1-As that transcend another 1-A ect ect. Immeasurable Taikyoku isn't really comparable to that. Or at least that was my understanding of the Hajun vs Nyar thread. Hypnos<<<the first gate<<<Nodens/other elder gods<<<Umr at-Tawil<The Second Gate<<<The ultimate gods<Nyar
 
For true Nyar and true Bern, trying to quantify them as "this much above baseline 1-A" is meaningless, as it is their sheer conceptual transcendence that makes them so "strong".
 
As to my understanding, comparing Yatou to Hajun is similar to the gap in power between Hypnos and Umr at-Tawil, with Umr at-Tawil being arguably comparable to Hajun, and the gap between Umr at-Tawil and Nyarlathotep being comparable to the gap between Hypnos and Umr at-Tawil. I can give further explanation if needed.

And yes, Nyar is "the weakest Outer God", persay. The only limitations at that point is being bound by hierarchy. Once you pass the point of transcending all concepts and definition and possibilities and whatnot, the only way to judge "power" is where you stand on the hierarchy.

As for the thing with characters being High 1-A if others were 0, it goes on further than that. If You was 0, Shub-Niggurath would be High 1-A. If Shub was 0, a Lesser Outer God below her would be High 1-A. There are infinite Lesser Outer Gods to my understanding that are above and below each other, so when you get to the bottom of them, you'd eventually reach Nyarlathotep. If Nyar was 0, maybe one of his avatars or an Umr at-Tawil would be a High 1-A.

Similar to Bernkastel, really. If Featherine was 0, her and Lamb would be High 1-A. If one was ignored and was treated as a 0, their avatars would be High 1-A. And they have more than merely infinite avatars to my understanding, and then even Bern's weakest avatars could be considered 1-A. And then pieces of said avatars could be, too.

Hence the reasons that this battle is inconclusive, mainly.
 
@Hadou

Not trying to nitpick, but "Ultimate God" and "Lesser Outer God" are synonymous AFAIK.
 
Oh, crap. Let me fix that. I was looking at Parrot's scaling because I thought I missed something, I was going to put Umr at-Tawil where I have "Ultimate God", but then saw that. Shh, I'll fix it.
 
So if I have this right, Bernkastel is equal to an Ultimate God because she, like them is an Archetype of existence? Then I vote inconclusive.
 
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