Lady Bernkastel vs Nyarlathotep

[DarkLK]

Oh. I thought you were making an impassioned argument against Nyar

I'll probably make some "impassioned argument" in Bern's favor (it will take a lot of time due to my bad English), but only if someone makes an "impassioned argument" in favor of Nyarl.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I actually like When They Cry more than Cthulhu Mythos by virtue of having actually read it (or at least the manga), but Nyarla still seems more powerful.

Though this thing about Bern being the stage on which Umineko is set is pretty cool. Does that mean that her true self is already present on all higher layers?

 

[DarkLK]

Though this thing about Bern being the stage on which Umineko is set is pretty cool. Does that mean that her true self is already present on all higher layers?

This is not how it works.

For example, beings as Beatrice have their own territory, their game board with some worlds, layers and meta-layers In an unknown quantity, if it matters at all. The very environment where the phenomenon operates becomes one with the being that embodies this phenomenon. So Beatrice is her board, she is her world, her universe, her territory. But such beings as voyagers are fundamentally different. They do not have territory at all.

This does not mean that their phenomena do not work anywhere. On the contrary. This means that these phenomena work everywhere, regardless of frontiers and prospects. They are fundamental and global. They work in all worlds and all layers at once. It is because of this that the manifestations of the voyagers are unstable. They can go anywhere, they can become as strong as they want. But they do not do it. Because they are the only beings who can understand what it means to become a Creator (the end of their endless journey).

But their phenomena still work. Unconsciously even for themselves. Because self-consciousness denotes a point of view and perspective, but these forces work independently of this, regardless of the location of the manifestations. They are the function of the world, that was created by God in this form with this laws.

These laws influenced Voyagers themselves before they became Voyagers. They still influence them. They affect even the beings of nothingness, who are independent from the fragments. The only element and the only truth of the world unites these two (their principles are always together), surpassing the very sea of fragments.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Wot 0_o

So basically, Bern's "true self" is the phenomena of miracles / predestination, which exists throughout all the layers and worlds at once, but her consciousness can only manifest in her avatars?

 

[DarkLK]

Wot 0_o

So basically, Bern's "true self" is the phenomena of miracles / predestination, which exists throughout all the layers and worlds at once, but her consciousness can only manifest in her avatars?

Something like that.

Bern is something that has already happened (that is, crystallized probabilities), and Lambda is what can happen depending on the factor of willful intentions. They are past and future, death and life, stasis and change, Fragments and Catboxes, Wheel of Fortune, the World.

There is a world with a low probability where Lion exist? Thank Bern for this. There are tragedies in the worlds with other probabilities? In this, too, "blame" Bern. Even if deliberately she did not do anything.

 

[Aeyu]

I suppose I could make an impassioned argument for Nyar, but I, too will need a while.

 

[DMB_1]

Doesn't Nyar have quite the Regenerationn advantage?

Nyarlathotep has True Godly, whuile Bernkasterl only High Godly (if this even matters in the battle).

 

[ALRF]

they are getting updated (Bern) i mean

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Yes, Bern is becoming 1-A.

 

[DMB_1]

Yes, Bern is becoming 1-A.

But she's already a 1-A, right?

 

[DarkLK]

Nyarlathotep has True Godly, whuile Bernkasterl only High Godly (if this even matters in the battle).

The characters from Umineko were among those for whom this type of Regenerationn was created from the very beginning (see examples). But TMR left the wiki and Umineko profiles have not been updated for a long time.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

What are the changes that the verse really needs then? I don't think it would be unreasonable to have knowledgeable members and staff work together to get the job done as long as the information is on the table.

 

[ALRF]

IIRC, there is some confusion about Battler beating "Bern" which ended up in him being asked to be upgraded to 1-A

But said Bern was nothing but a piece version IIRC

My memory is fuzzy on Umineko so i can't answer correctly, but i think that's the case.

And then there is the problem such as the regen which should be updated

 

[DarkLK]

IIRC, there is some confusion about Battler beating "Bern" which ended up in him being asked to be upgraded to 1-A
But said Bern was nothing but a piece version IIRC

The fact is that even this piece "Bern" is 1-A. And her avatars are 1-A. And avatars of her avatars are 1-A.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Yes. I was thinking about bringing these sorts of things up while reading through the series recently.

 

[DarkLK]

I doubt that you will be able to prove these things using information only from the Umineko VN.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I have only been reading the manga, haven't gotten around to the VN, yet. But I have seen a lot of VN scans.

 

[DarkLK]

WTC-verse is much bigger and more complicated than just Umineko manga+VN.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Oh, yes, I know. I've studied it quite a bit before beginning to read them. ;-;

 

[SenshiDon]

If I'm reading Bern's AP description correctly, it would appear that she can constantly become higher and higher dimensional until she reaches the Creator, similar to Hajun. That being the case, does that not mean that Bern can ascend to a state of existence higher than Nya?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not higher "dimensional" exactly. Higher layer. There's actually a larger difference.

But no, she could not ascend to a state higher than Nyar. Because Nyar is a highest existence. It's an Archetype. Nothing's higher except Yog, Nameless Mist and Unnamed Darkness (High 1-As) and Azathoth.

So unless she straight up ascends so high she does this , she isn't getting higher than Nyar, and if she does that, she's no longer in the game.

Regardless, she kinda already is at a similar state to an Archetype as was explained above, being a Voyager Witch of Fate.

 

[DarkLK]

Regardless, she kinda already is at a similar state to an Archetype as was explained above, being a Voyager Witch of Fate.

More like Voyager of Doom (witch of kakera and the god of death). Even beings of "the side who creates fate" and beings of nothingness (who are fundamental archetypes) still obey her law.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, the comparison to Hajun should likely not be used, as Hajun recently lost a match to Nyarlathotep.

And it's more than just a "layer difference". Outerversal space in CM already has infinite levels/layers, as Hypnos was pretty much confident he could conquer all of infinity. The First Gate is inaccessible to outerversal realms. When Hypnos gifted his friend Outerversal abilities, his friend could not get past the final barrier.(the First Gate) Hypnos was only able to due to already mastering all of known existence at the Outerversal level, which was characterized as being vastly infinite. The Second Gate is even more inaccessible (as in, inaccessible cardinal) to the First Gate than the First Gate is to regular Outerversal realms, and Nyar is likely comparable to the Ultimate Gods, the ultimate entities which surround the Court of Azathoth.

 

[DarkLK]

Outerversal space in CM already has infinite levels/layers

And how big is the difference between these layers?

 

[Aeyu]

Hard to say off the top of my head, and I might need to do a little digging, but at the very least Hypnos tells us this:

There was a night when winds from unknown spaces whirled us irresistibly into limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity. Perceptions of the most maddeningly untransmissible sort thronged upon us; perceptions of infinity which at the time convulsed us with joy, yet which are now partly lost to my memory and partly incapable of presentation to others. Viscous obstacles were clawed through in rapid succession, and at length I felt that we had been borne to realms of greater remoteness than any we had previously known. My friend was vastly in advance as we plunged into this awesome ocean of virgin aether, and I could see the sinister exultation on his floating, luminous, too youthful memory-face. Suddenly that face became dim and quickly disappeared, and in a brief space I found myself projected against an obstacle which I could not penetrate. It was like the others, yet incalculably denser; a sticky, clammy mass, if such terms can be applied to analogous qualities in a non-material sphere. I had, I felt, been halted by a barrier which my friend and leader had successfully passed. Struggling anew, I came to the end of the drug-dream and opened my physical eyes to the tower studio in whose opposite corner reclined the pallid and still unconscious form of my fellow-dreamer, weirdly haggard and wildly beautiful as the moon shed gold-green light on his marble features. Then, after a short interval, the form in the corner stirred; and may pitying heaven keep from my sight and sound another thing like that which took place before me. I cannot tell you how he shrieked, or what vistas of unvisitable hells gleamed for a second in black eyes crazed with fright. I can only say that I fainted, and did not stir till he himself recovered and shook me in his phrensy for someone to keep away the horror and desolation.

If you mean the Gates, beyond infinitely so, one inaccessibly greater than the next.

 

[ALRF]

>Well, the comparison to Hajun should likely not be used, as Hajun recently lost a match to Nyarlathotep.

Nah

 

[Aeyu]

Nah to your nah, because he did. (You were there o

It simply hasn't been added yet because of the thing with 1-A fights.

 

[DarkLK]

Hard to say off the top of my head, and I might need to do a little digging, but at the very least Hypnos tells us this:
There was a night when winds from unknown spaces whirled us irresistibly into limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity. Perceptions of the most maddeningly untransmissible sort thronged upon us; perceptions of infinity which at the time convulsed us with joy, yet which are now partly lost to my memory and partly incapable of presentation to others. Viscous obstacles were clawed through in rapid succession, and at length I felt that we had been borne to realms of greater remoteness than any we had previously known. My friend was vastly in advance as we plunged into this awesome ocean of virgin aether, and I could see the sinister exultation on his floating, luminous, too youthful memory-face. Suddenly that face became dim and quickly disappeared, and in a brief space I found myself projected against an obstacle which I could not penetrate. It was like the others, yet incalculably denser; a sticky, clammy mass, if such terms can be applied to analogous qualities in a non-material sphere. I had, I felt, been halted by a barrier which my friend and leader had successfully passed. Struggling anew, I came to the end of the drug-dream and opened my physical eyes to the tower studio in whose opposite corner reclined the pallid and still unconscious form of my fellow-dreamer, weirdly haggard and wildly beautiful as the moon shed gold-green light on his marble features. Then, after a short interval, the form in the corner stirred; and may pitying heaven keep from my sight and sound another thing like that which took place before me. I cannot tell you how he shrieked, or what vistas of unvisitable hells gleamed for a second in black eyes crazed with fright. I can only say that I fainted, and did not stir till he himself recovered and shook me in his phrensy for someone to keep away the horror and desolation.

Apart from the standard (for outerversal things) epithets, all that I see here is some kind of a journey through the transcendental realms and madness after meeting with something uncharted (Gate). I do not see here any colossal hierarchy with a qualitative difference between the steps.

I remember that in one of the Ryukishi07 works there was also one guy who overestimates himself and his ability of mental evolution.

This guy lived in a some ununderstandable transcendental universe, where any time, place and coordinates are deviated.

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But he managed to understand even this world.

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And his mind went even further. High-level immaterial forces and laws became like toys for his curiosity.

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He kept on going up, but then he began to meet incomprehensible things for himself.

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But then there were more and more such things.

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And eventually he reached the top, through which he could not pass. Everything was absolute incomprehensible to him.

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After reaching such a high state, even the "under" itself disappeared.

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This guy was lucky that there was a greater being who allowed him to return from the peak of all things.

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But this guy still has not calmed down. He tried to touch the higher knowledge.

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And even after the peak of all things his mind could not stand it.

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But all this in any case is quite insignificant. Nothing even close to Bern. Someone who is much greater than both this guy and the being who greater than him can lose own soul just by looking at the external manifestation of Bern's power.

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[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

DarkLK, what is the gap in power between higher layers and lower layers when you pass the first infinite hierarchy beyond human understanding? And then what is the gap between higher layers and lower layers once you reach the level of a Voyager witch?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't really understand why Hypnos is being used for any sort of reference compared to the Outer Gods, considering how utterly shit tier he is.

Nothing he does really helps understanding of the archetypes and such.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Mainly a reference of power.

He's a decently high 1-A, yet the Archetypes are still ridicuously above him.

 

[DarkLK]

DarkLK, what is the gap in power between higher layers and lower layers when you pass the first infinite hierarchy beyond human understanding? And then what is the gap between higher layers and lower layers once you reach the level of a Voyager witch?

Despite the difference between domains, there is always the same principle. For the being of the higher layer, there is no difference between the beings and the phenomena of the lower layer (although within the same layer there can be a colossal difference in power and complexity). They are all equally ephemeral. Moreover, there is not even a difference between the worlds of different lower layers. They will also be equally ephemeral.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Then who do you think would win between Nyarlathotep and Bernkastel if you leave out Nyar's Immortality?

 

[DarkLK]

I don't really understand why Hypnos is being used for any sort of reference compared to the Outer Gods, considering how utterly shit tier he is.

Nothing he does really helps understanding of the archetypes and such.

Yeah, it's pretty weird. The only thing in this story can be useful for higher beings is the demonstration of some inconceivable perspectives in the transcendental space. And the highest level as we know above even such perspectives as a whole.

 

[Aeyu]

I'm not comparing Hypnos to Bern, I can respectfully admit that's a stomp. I'm using Hypnos as a metric since Nyar is probably infinite compared to an immeasurably infinite plateau of existence higher than an immeasurably higher plateau of existence than what Hypnos can comprehend, Hypnos' capabilities being concurrent with an infinitude of Outerversal realities of all seeming greater complexity. In all actuality, that guy you mentioned sounds pretty similar to Hypnos. Maybe Hypnos was even an influence. But yeah, basically everything even at an outerversal level which transcends concept and entity is an infinitesimal nothing compared to what's past the First Gate, and past the Ultimate Gate and within the Final Void, everything before it literally means less than nothing, being fragmentary at best.

 

[DarkLK]

Then who do you think would win between Nyarlathotep and Bernkastel if you leave out Nyar's Immortality?

Well, I'm just using equivalent arguments and nothing more. I would not even mention that insignificant guy if there was no mention of insignificant Hypnos.

And do not look at the outdated profile. Bern has exactly the same immortality and Regenerationn as Nya does.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I studied the profile of Bernkastel on your wiki and I feel like I understand her better.

 

[DarkLK]

I studied the profile of Bernkastel on your wiki and I feel like I understand her better.

This profile is quite outdated in many aspects as well.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

So there exists no up-to-date profile? :0

 

[DarkLK]

Yup. Well, I once will rewrite the ACF profile and Azzy (with my help) probably will sometime rewrite the VSB profile.