Kumagawa's Screw Spawning and "Passive" All Fiction

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Except it has activated when he didn't know he had it, so they aren't equally valid so Occam's Razor doesn't apply

 

[Elizhaa]

Except it has activated when he didn't know he had it, so they aren't equally valid so Occam's Razor doesn't apply

@Iapitus The Impaler, Misogi Kumagawa's case isn't rare; there are a lot characters in fiction who instintively used their powers in fiction when they thought that would loss. There are lot examples for heroes based stories.

Instinct or Thought-based isn't automatic.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

There is nothing implying it is instinct based, so it takes more assumptions to say it is that. Therefore occam's razor points to it being automatic

 

[InfiniteSped]

Chougasaki's instance aleeady shows it's not automatic. Your interpretation of the intance with Kei assumes Kuma would just sit in Ajimu's room forever and never bother to even try to come back.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Him intentionally holding it back is not the same as it bringing him back with no influence. If you know you cannot fly, do you attempt to sprout wings when trapped in a pit? No.

 

[InfiniteSped]

So, the whole time he was trying to get Bookmaker back, he was actually just supressing All Fiction from yanking him back to life? Feel like Occam's razor would point to the obvious . . . he stayed there because he didn't activate, because he didn't want to leave yet. Where is it said that he has to supress AF from activating by itself?

If I lived for years with the power of sprouting wings outta my back, and had just lost it a few months before, then, yes, I would. Why the hell wouldn't I? And so would Kuma, he won't just sit there for all eternity without trying it.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Iapitus The Impaler, it doesn't show to be automatic; automatic is more inconsistent from what I seen then it been though-based. Occam's Razor doesn't work like is this most simplest explaination is usually the correct one. The simplest explaination is is not automatic because they have inconsistencies about the resurrection and it never stated automatic anyway in the verse as it based on inference.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Chougasaki's case is a resurrection without AF, so I don't even see why it's use as an argument for "it's not automatic".

 

[InfiniteSped]

Not my point. He had AF for most of the time he was there, and didn't auto resurrect. He was going to leave after Ajimu didn't give him Bookmaker back, showing that he chooses when to get out and obviously has to activate it himself.

 

[QuasiYuri]

He already show to being able to stay as long as he wanted too. And? It's not like a character can't desactivated an automatic power. Not to mention that the main argument against it (the resurrection vs Mukanata) show that he can perfectly auto-resurrect.

 

[InfiniteSped]

The Manakuta argument doesn't show that all. It relies on Kuma just sitting on Ajimu's and never trying to use All Fiction like he's grown accostumed to.

There's really nothing to support AF being automatic, it can all be explained by Kuma himself activating, and doesn't rely on the power working by itself for no reason and Misogi having to turn it off, which is never actually stated anywhere, as far as I can tell.

 

[Elizhaa]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Iapitus The Impaler, it doesn't show to be automatic; automatic is more inconsistent from what I seen then it been though-based.
Occam's Razor doesn't work like is this most simplest explaination is usually the correct one. The simplest explaination is is not automatic because they have inconsistencies about the resurrection and it never stated automatic anyway in the verse as it based on inference.

In what way is it consistent? If it were merely thought based, then he would be able to stay dead. He overtly cannot stay dead. He also complains that one of the reasons he hates dying is that it means he will need to see Ajimu again. If all it took was a thought to come back to life then he wouldn't need to see her. He also doesn't always come back instantly, but often comes back on a short time frame. If every time he died it was thought based he would come back on the same time frame, but that isn't the case. I know you are not knowledgable on the verse, so you would not know about his fight with Ezumachi. He was unable to undo the wounds that Ezumachi induced due to the hard counter that they did not technically exist. Ezumachi's color attacks kill you because he makes you think you are dead from the horrifying bruises, but they are actually all in your head. If it was simply thought based, then he would not have been able to come back from them period, but eventually they kicked in on their own.

Occam's razor also means that it is the one with the least assumptions. When they say that he cannot stay dead, that means it must be automatic.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

So, the whole time he was trying to get Bookmaker back, he was actually just supressing All Fiction from yanking him back to life? Feel like Occam's razor would point to the obvious . . . he stayed there because he didn't activate, because he didn't want to leave yet. Where is it said that he has to supress AF from activating by itself?
If I lived for years with the power of sprouting wings outta my back, and had just lost it a few months before, then, yes, I would. Why the hell wouldn't I? And so would Kuma, he won't just sit there for all eternity without trying it.

Yes, that is right. Except you forget the time when All Fiction brought him back to life from wounds that he could not negate himself, due to the wounds being in his head. If the ressurection was thought based, then he would have undone the wounds that were just in his head. However, he came back over time.

By this logic, he would have tried to undo the numerous wounds done on him while All Fiction was still surpressed and he would have undone them. Kumagawa also likely wouldn't have, because you don't even know he would necesarilly go to the classroom while Ajimu wasn't using it.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Bump?

 

[InfiniteSped]

Tad old, and idk if it was brought up in some other thread, but the LN confirms AF isn't passive:

That could be considered the weak point of all Skill Holders, not just Kumagawa-kun. That was the reason why Skills that were constantly active without needing to be controlled―in other words, the Abnormalities of people who couldn't exactly be called Skill Holders―that was why they surpassed Skill Holders, who you'd think would be higher in rank. It was hard to say that Kumagawa-kun actually controlled his "All Fiction", but regardless of whether we called it control or not, it was true that he himself decided when to use it—naturally, that meant that when he needed to apply it to the "Hero's Sword" at the bottom of the pool, he needed to have the will, the intention, to "apply" it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

That's not clear on if his death part was tho

 

[InfiniteSped]

I don't see why erasing his death would be different. He has to will for AF to activate, and he can will it after death since he always goes to the room. The instances I showed above before and stuff Ajimu said in the LN itself go pretty heavily for the "he has to will it" side.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The manga also has stuff that points in the other direction. I would prefer not to open this can of worms again, but if he could just revive himself instantly every time he died then he wouldn't have to see Ajimu, and there is the instance of it activating when he didn't know he had it

 

[Guardspace]

Tad old, and idk if it was brought up in some other thread, but the LN confirms AF isn't passive:

That could be considered the weak point of all Skill Holders, not just Kumagawa-kun. That was the reason why Skills that were constantly active without needing to be controlled―in other words, the Abnormalities of people who couldn't exactly be called Skill Holders―that was why they surpassed Skill Holders, who you'd think would be higher in rank. It was hard to say that Kumagawa-kun actually controlled his "All Fiction", but regardless of whether we called it control or not, it was true that he himself decided when to use it—naturally, that meant that when he needed to apply it to the "Hero's Sword" at the bottom of the pool, he needed to have the will, the intention, to "apply" it.

If that the true he always know he is going to die in case like

-play in russian roulete

-drown in pool

-accidentaly stabed sword (two times)

And is only from novel.

That soumd rather silly.

 

[InfiniteSped]

The manga also has stuff that points in the other direction. I would prefer not to open this can of worms again, but if he could just revive himself instantly every time he died then he wouldn't have to see Ajimu, and there is the instance of it activating when he didn't know he had it

If it's passive and does not rely on his consciousness, it means he can come back from stuff that destroys his mind/soul, since AF will just undo everything on his own. That's a pretty important distiction to make.

With Ajimu telling him to just "revive already", and him clearly being able to control when he comes back, as shown when Gagamaru killed him, I don't see any real evidence that it's passive when he dies. There's a clear cut statement of him needing to will it, and none that says the opposite, as far as I can tell.

The instance with Munakata can be very easily explained with him just trying to activate it anyway, not like he'd just stand in Ajimu's room for the rest of eternity without even trying, it did take some minutes, at least. Like, do we even know when or how he got AF back?

 

[Agnaa]

Also, I believe the translated LNs include more statements like "Kumagawa can never die" or other stuff implying that he always has to revive.

However, on this topic I would like to say that we shouldn't assume that Medaka's All Fiction resurrection is on by default. There'a never an implication that she has it on, and we know that she disabled her other passives.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, i agree with Agnaa here. I don't have time to debate this, but it is true that Medaka keeps her passives off. She also just in general doesn't seem to like to use it for healing or ressurection, prefering 5 forks instead

 

[InfiniteSped]

"Can never die" is super vague. It's clearly not "no one can kill him", since Iihiko exists. And, while I haven't finished the novel, "he can't kill himself" doesn't seem to fit either, he's too stubborn to just give up on life, imo. Sounds more like "he just won't die, the sob".

Seriously, this is super shaky stuff for something that'd basically give him pseudo Mid-Godly regen. >_>

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I think you give AF too much credit if you think this is Mid-Godly regen

 

[Agnaa]

I'm pretty sure that those novels were written before Iihiko was conceived of as a character, so I really don't like using him as a contradiction. I can try and find the quotes for context sometime later, if no-one else has done so by then.

 

[InfiniteSped]

If the power can undo his death without him willing it, then it'd very easily bring back his mind/soul if those were destroyed, no? It is pretty much Mid-Godly, from what I can tell

 

[Agnaa]

All Fiction has been treated as Low-Godly, since there's no evidence it would still be a thing without his mind/soul.

Also, I found a novel quote:

Through "All Fiction", which automatically activated after his death, Kumagawa-kun had been able to revive, despite the katana still impaled in his chest

 

[InfiniteSped]

I'm pretty sure that those novels were written before Iihiko was conceived of as a character, so I really don't like using him as a contradiction. I can try and find the quotes for context sometime later, if no-one else has done so by then.

The Kumagawa novels seem to have been released in October and November 2012, while Iihiko's arc started in February 2013. He should have been already conceived at that point, just a few months before he actually appeared. Even then, he exists in-verse.

 

[InfiniteSped]

All Fiction has been treated as Low-Godly, since there's no evidence it would still be a thing without his mind/soul.
Also, I found a novel quote:

Through "All Fiction", which automatically activated after his death, Kumagawa-kun had been able to revive, despite the katana still impaled in his chest

Alright, that should prove it's automatic, for now

 

[Agnaa]

Fair enough. I made a post just before your more recent one with the novel quote I was thinking of.