- 63,529
- 8,506
2. And 3. Aren't too important since Fugil has Precog to use the right law.
The first however is important, that I can see giving the win
The first however is important, that I can see giving the win
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Kumagawa vs Fugil
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
- Start date
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #42
Hmm isn't it info analysis? Cus if it is he has to analyze Kumagawa first (which also depends on the type of analysis), which would make it MUCH slower.Schnee One said:
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #43
- 63,529
- 8,506
No, he has both.
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #45
Hmm, it says precog via wise blood, but the profile never explains wise blood.
Ion i demand an explanatio
- 63,529
- 8,506
This is irrelevant anyway if Misogi thinks first, just need to understand why
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #47
He doesn't think first it is just, once he thinks, he never needed to think.Schnee One said:
- 15,920
- 2,693
Misogi can't erase laws if Fugil has resistance to law manip, since as far as I'm aware, you need law hax to disperse other laws.
Info Analysis is passives and tells him about the abilities, stats and equipment of his opponent.
Why would atatck reflection/no damage dealt law wouldn't work? Misogi has no resistance to any of that.
Why is the time erasure "retroactive" and why would it work faster than what Fugil can do?
Info Analysis is passives and tells him about the abilities, stats and equipment of his opponent.
Why would atatck reflection/no damage dealt law wouldn't work? Misogi has no resistance to any of that.
Why is the time erasure "retroactive" and why would it work faster than what Fugil can do?
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #49
No, he erases laws with causality manip. It's on his profile.
What about precog?
Cus it wouldn't cuz misogi doesn't rely on damage to beat opponents.
Cus it's 4D, in the sense of it never happened. So logically something that never happened would be there before something that just happened. Think of how omnipresent is "faster" than infinite. So not actually faster but it works like being faster.
What about precog?
Cus it wouldn't cuz misogi doesn't rely on damage to beat opponents.
Cus it's 4D, in the sense of it never happened. So logically something that never happened would be there before something that just happened. Think of how omnipresent is "faster" than infinite. So not actually faster but it works like being faster.
- 15,920
- 2,693
Fugil can also resist causality manip.
What does precog have to do with this? His analytical prediction is better than precog.
The attack reflection is not only the damage, it also includes the effects of whatever happens to Fugil. For example, if you cut Fugil's finger your finger gets cut too.
That doesn't explain hy it would be better, both need to think to do their abilities, both activate at the same time. And Fugil can just get resistance to time stuff, what makes time erasure so special for Fugil not be able to get resistance againts that when he does it with basically any other time related ability?
What does precog have to do with this? His analytical prediction is better than precog.
The attack reflection is not only the damage, it also includes the effects of whatever happens to Fugil. For example, if you cut Fugil's finger your finger gets cut too.
That doesn't explain hy it would be better, both need to think to do their abilities, both activate at the same time. And Fugil can just get resistance to time stuff, what makes time erasure so special for Fugil not be able to get resistance againts that when he does it with basically any other time related ability?
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #51
Hmm, he can just erase the laws which wouldn't affect fugil, but even then what's fugils best resistance feat with causality?
How does analysis work?
Sure but bookmaker has no effect on kumagawa so it would just **** fugil over whereas misogi would be unaffected.
Both need to think but once misogi thinks "he never needed to think", I'm on my phone so I can't go into much detail but it works, it's a thing. As for time, it's basically just misogi not needing time to move think of it as gaining pseudo inf speed.
How does analysis work?
Sure but bookmaker has no effect on kumagawa so it would just **** fugil over whereas misogi would be unaffected.
Both need to think but once misogi thinks "he never needed to think", I'm on my phone so I can't go into much detail but it works, it's a thing. As for time, it's basically just misogi not needing time to move think of it as gaining pseudo inf speed.
- 15,920
- 2,693
The resistance is also for Ouroboros and his laws, so the laws would be the ones to be unaffected. Wait, how do you measure causality manipulation potency in the first place?
Sight based and passive, it tells him basically everything about his opponent.
Pretty sure he can't resist the attack with double the potency it's not something he can make, and if Fugil can just start resisting statistics reduction. Also, how the hell is Kumawaga getting around the forcefields to stab (or whatever he does) Fugil with Bookmaker?
He still gets affected by the law tho, he still need to think to activate, both activate at the same time and both make effect at the same time. So even if Misogi "never needed to think", he still thought at the same time as Fugil.
Sight based and passive, it tells him basically everything about his opponent.
Pretty sure he can't resist the attack with double the potency it's not something he can make, and if Fugil can just start resisting statistics reduction. Also, how the hell is Kumawaga getting around the forcefields to stab (or whatever he does) Fugil with Bookmaker?
He still gets affected by the law tho, he still need to think to activate, both activate at the same time and both make effect at the same time. So even if Misogi "never needed to think", he still thought at the same time as Fugil.
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #53
To erase laws you don't need to affect ouroboros doe. As for that, tell me the highest feat and i'll say how it fairs up against causality manip that erases things on a 4D level, capable of erasing laws and even concepts.
Ok, but how does it work? Does it read minds, does it read stats, does it read magic?
He can use multiple screws for more potency, so yes it is something he can make but the attack makes people "kumagawa". Kumagawa is already "kumagawa" so multiply it a million times and it would still do nothing, cus it would still not change an effect. The damage to the body is nearly zero. About the force fields, he bypasses barriers, but even then he can spawn screws inside people.
He thought at the same time as fugi, but the time erasure takes effect before the law, because something that has never been there is logically faster than something that just came there. Not to mention factors like needing the right law and fugil needing more time to process the info that he's being given by the info analysis. But even without those, retroactive abilities are faster than instant, by nature of "having always been there" being faster than thought based, because once Misogi thinks, he never needed to do so.
Ok, but how does it work? Does it read minds, does it read stats, does it read magic?
He can use multiple screws for more potency, so yes it is something he can make but the attack makes people "kumagawa". Kumagawa is already "kumagawa" so multiply it a million times and it would still do nothing, cus it would still not change an effect. The damage to the body is nearly zero. About the force fields, he bypasses barriers, but even then he can spawn screws inside people.
He thought at the same time as fugi, but the time erasure takes effect before the law, because something that has never been there is logically faster than something that just came there. Not to mention factors like needing the right law and fugil needing more time to process the info that he's being given by the info analysis. But even without those, retroactive abilities are faster than instant, by nature of "having always been there" being faster than thought based, because once Misogi thinks, he never needed to do so.
- 13,812
- 3,790
I dont think he ever spawned a bookmaker screw into someone, he always needed to throw the screw himself
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #55
He has spawned screws inside people before. So it's not just about whether or not he would, but he can.Oblivion Of The Endless said:
- 15,920
- 2,693
You need to affect the laws created by Ouroboros to erase its laws tho, its like saying a character has resistance to power null so he throws ice towards his opponent but since his ice is already out of his body you can null it just fine, it doesn't work like that. What's the proof that it is 4D? On his profile it is only universal.
I don't get what you're saying anymore, it does what I said, it tells you the abilities and other stuff about his opponent, that's it, reading minds is something totally unrlated Fugil can do anyways.
Still whatever that happens to Fugil returns to Kumagawa, doesnt matter if it turns you into "kumagawa", kumagawa would feel the same effect, aka, he wouldn't be able to use his abilities as Fugil can't do it. It won't turn Kumagawa into "kumagawa" is that the efefct that Fugil suffered returns to Kumagawa with twice the strenght.
That doesn't make any sense, both think at the same time, both are created at the same time, Fugil creates a law and Kumagawa erases time, the effect of the time erasure happens at the same time as the created law, the law is still there as the time erasure is taking effect. Fugil doesn't need time to process the info tho, needing the right law is something he can crate just by getting resistance to everything, which would work, and since when Fugil thinks he get resistance to basically everything, he get resistance to the time erasure too, so he would still be able to fight in the erased time. And the time erasure "having always been there" is not true due to the fact that Kumagawa needs to create it, it's not passive.
I don't get what you're saying anymore, it does what I said, it tells you the abilities and other stuff about his opponent, that's it, reading minds is something totally unrlated Fugil can do anyways.
Still whatever that happens to Fugil returns to Kumagawa, doesnt matter if it turns you into "kumagawa", kumagawa would feel the same effect, aka, he wouldn't be able to use his abilities as Fugil can't do it. It won't turn Kumagawa into "kumagawa" is that the efefct that Fugil suffered returns to Kumagawa with twice the strenght.
That doesn't make any sense, both think at the same time, both are created at the same time, Fugil creates a law and Kumagawa erases time, the effect of the time erasure happens at the same time as the created law, the law is still there as the time erasure is taking effect. Fugil doesn't need time to process the info tho, needing the right law is something he can crate just by getting resistance to everything, which would work, and since when Fugil thinks he get resistance to basically everything, he get resistance to the time erasure too, so he would still be able to fight in the erased time. And the time erasure "having always been there" is not true due to the fact that Kumagawa needs to create it, it's not passive.
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #57
That's kinda false equivalency (cus power null is "nulling your power" and your power is ice, so resisting it is the ice itself resisting it). A better example would be "the ice i launch can't be EE'd cus i resist EE", you do, not your ice. About 4D, it's 4D in erasure, not in potency. So it erases on a 4D level, but the power itself is not 4D (think of how, time paradoxing people is a 4D erasure, but the time paradox itself is not 4D), then there are some more things to take into account like the CM working on concepts etc.
Ok whatever i guess.
The best feat you showed for this is "if the finger is cut, yours will be too", i don't need to explain why that is not even close or implying it would work like "The same thing that fugil experienced would be experienced by Kumagawa" is so far off it isn't even attack reflection because you're not even reflecting bookmaker, you're reflecting "the effect bookmaker had on me" not the attack itself.
Same reason Omnipresent > Infinite. Both think, but once Misogi thinks, he never needed to do so. Both are same in "speed" but Misogi's erasure takes precedence. Doesn't need time to process the info his info analysis is giving him (also im assuming his info analysis is instant?) to come up with the best solution? Iffy at most. It is true, once Kumagawa erases something, said thing "had never happened" in the first place. Example, if he erases a wound, the wound, doesn't stop, he never got wounded in the first place. Similarly once he erases time, time never was there.
Ok whatever i guess.
The best feat you showed for this is "if the finger is cut, yours will be too", i don't need to explain why that is not even close or implying it would work like "The same thing that fugil experienced would be experienced by Kumagawa" is so far off it isn't even attack reflection because you're not even reflecting bookmaker, you're reflecting "the effect bookmaker had on me" not the attack itself.
Same reason Omnipresent > Infinite. Both think, but once Misogi thinks, he never needed to do so. Both are same in "speed" but Misogi's erasure takes precedence. Doesn't need time to process the info his info analysis is giving him (also im assuming his info analysis is instant?) to come up with the best solution? Iffy at most. It is true, once Kumagawa erases something, said thing "had never happened" in the first place. Example, if he erases a wound, the wound, doesn't stop, he never got wounded in the first place. Similarly once he erases time, time never was there.
- 15,920
- 2,693
It's not false equivalency, it's still your power, you resist EE your pwoer does too, it makes absolutely not sense for you to resist EE/Powr null and your power gets EE'd/Power nulled, the power comes out for you. I don't get that, how can it be 4D in erasure but not in potency, and if it is because it has something to do with time, Fugil also nulls/resists things related to time, so that means Fugil's power null is 4D in potency now?
It reflect both things, for example you vaporize Fugil the effect of vaporizing returns to you and you get vaporized, like when Lisha tried to compress Fugil if she hasn't been protected by Lux with Reload on Fire she would have benn compressed by her own attack that was hitting Ouroboros. So it also reflect the thing that happened to him towards the other person.
I still don't get what you mean, Kumagawa isn't omnipresent, so he isn't doing something faster thansomething that is happenoing at the exact same time, it won't take precedence because it happens at the same time. Fugil still leads with a law, whatever he needs, literally starting resisting everything is what he needs, and he lead with that once once Fugil creates the law, the time erasure won't take efefct on him so he would be normally.
It reflect both things, for example you vaporize Fugil the effect of vaporizing returns to you and you get vaporized, like when Lisha tried to compress Fugil if she hasn't been protected by Lux with Reload on Fire she would have benn compressed by her own attack that was hitting Ouroboros. So it also reflect the thing that happened to him towards the other person.
I still don't get what you mean, Kumagawa isn't omnipresent, so he isn't doing something faster thansomething that is happenoing at the exact same time, it won't take precedence because it happens at the same time. Fugil still leads with a law, whatever he needs, literally starting resisting everything is what he needs, and he lead with that once once Fugil creates the law, the time erasure won't take efefct on him so he would be normally.
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #59
No, that's not how it works. You resist getting yeeted out of existence not your powers. That's like not even close to a logical conclusion. Well it is a casualty manip that erases things so that they "never happened", which is a 4D level of erasure but the ability itself is 3D, or i guess 4D but not in a way that means anything (so it's effects are 4D but the ability itself isn't such, this means it's effect is powerful but it can still be affected by 3D power null for example). I guess think of something like pucci's universe reset. He speeds up time which is not a 4D thing, however he reaches the end of the universe and can therefore reset the universe which is low 2C. However only the effect is such, not the ability itself.
Not really that just shows she was compressing herself too with her power, not that it would affect her if the ability by nature cannot affect her. Like what can you reflect on kuma? The drop? Even assuming he could it still wouldn't affect kuma, he lives as himself, he wouldn't go unconscious from it. Fugil would because he can't handle being kumagawa but kumagawa can.
Time erasure just makes kuma inf speed though you literally cannot resist it. He just erases the time he needs to accomplish something making it instant. Also kumagawa isn't omnipresent, but his ability has such effects.
So think of this, if you agree that omnipresent is "faster" than infinite. Wouldn't an effect created by kumagawa (which as i said has never been there) be faster than infinite. Because the effect has/hasn't ever been there so wouldn't it take precedence over something that just happened?
Not really that just shows she was compressing herself too with her power, not that it would affect her if the ability by nature cannot affect her. Like what can you reflect on kuma? The drop? Even assuming he could it still wouldn't affect kuma, he lives as himself, he wouldn't go unconscious from it. Fugil would because he can't handle being kumagawa but kumagawa can.
Time erasure just makes kuma inf speed though you literally cannot resist it. He just erases the time he needs to accomplish something making it instant. Also kumagawa isn't omnipresent, but his ability has such effects.
So think of this, if you agree that omnipresent is "faster" than infinite. Wouldn't an effect created by kumagawa (which as i said has never been there) be faster than infinite. Because the effect has/hasn't ever been there so wouldn't it take precedence over something that just happened?
- 15,920
- 2,693
So it isn't 4D, ok.
He is reflecting the effect of the ability, it would reflect whatever happens to Fugil to Kumagawa, it doesn't matter if the ability turns Kumagawa into "kumagawa" or whatever, the effect that Fugil suffers is still there and would be reflected back at Kumagawa with twice the strenght.
So only Kumagawa only erases time for himself? So why it would make Fugil's law to stop working when it is only for himself.
I don't agree with Omnipresent being faster than Infinite, with Infinite speed you can dodge attacks launched by an omnipresent, to me is the same speed. No, because he still needs to create it in the first place.
But I want to save some brain cells and ask this question: if Kumagawa makes Fugil's laws useless, blitzes him with infinite speed and seals him, what is Fugil's wincon?
He is reflecting the effect of the ability, it would reflect whatever happens to Fugil to Kumagawa, it doesn't matter if the ability turns Kumagawa into "kumagawa" or whatever, the effect that Fugil suffers is still there and would be reflected back at Kumagawa with twice the strenght.
So only Kumagawa only erases time for himself? So why it would make Fugil's law to stop working when it is only for himself.
I don't agree with Omnipresent being faster than Infinite, with Infinite speed you can dodge attacks launched by an omnipresent, to me is the same speed. No, because he still needs to create it in the first place.
But I want to save some brain cells and ask this question: if Kumagawa makes Fugil's laws useless, blitzes him with infinite speed and seals him, what is Fugil's wincon?
- 15,920
- 2,693
Why do you think it isn't safe?
- 8,199
- 1,934
It's kind of a huge assumption.
Resistance to atomization doesn't mean your attacks can't be atomized.
It's a leap.
It directly falls under association fallacy.
"This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this."
Resistance to atomization doesn't mean your attacks can't be atomized.
It's a leap.
It directly falls under association fallacy.
"This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this."
- 63,529
- 8,506
Unless it's something like power nullification, kinda agree with Yung
- 15,920
- 2,693
I don't really see what's the logic being used here, it's perfectly logical to assume a character has their resistances no matter what.
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #66
A character yes. Not his attacks. There real reasoning to say everything he does cannot be erased. It's he that resisted that, not the ability.Ionliosite said:
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #67
So it's easier to nullify or steal (All Fiction's resistance to these abilities aside), but it is much harder to undo or resist.
First of all, none of the scans show something to that extent. Secondly, even then, Kumagawa is used to being that trashy, suddenly feeling a drop to the same level of trashiness isn't really gonna affect him. If fugil goes from 10 to 0 from the drop, Kumagawa would feel the drop, but he'd go from "0 to 0" and that should affect him? Fugil cannot handle being Kumagawa, Kumagawa can handle being himself.
The law wouldn't stop working, Kumagawa would just skip to the result (example, he'd go from standing to having impaled fugil instantly).
I mean Misogi can erase his laws but is there nothing else for Fugil? Does fugil have no other ability? Cus Misogi can erase any law fugil does. What does Fugil have to put Misogi down?
First of all, none of the scans show something to that extent. Secondly, even then, Kumagawa is used to being that trashy, suddenly feeling a drop to the same level of trashiness isn't really gonna affect him. If fugil goes from 10 to 0 from the drop, Kumagawa would feel the drop, but he'd go from "0 to 0" and that should affect him? Fugil cannot handle being Kumagawa, Kumagawa can handle being himself.
The law wouldn't stop working, Kumagawa would just skip to the result (example, he'd go from standing to having impaled fugil instantly).
I mean Misogi can erase his laws but is there nothing else for Fugil? Does fugil have no other ability? Cus Misogi can erase any law fugil does. What does Fugil have to put Misogi down?
- 15,920
- 2,693
If his laws don't work, the next thing he has is Zero One, which either needs Kuma to punch him or wait for 1 second (which you stated above was too much), or use his memory/perception combo, but that's pretty rare of him.Firephoenixearl said:
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #70
Hmm, seems stompish then yes.
But what can Fugil do if he does pull of Zero One?
But what can Fugil do if he does pull of Zero One?
- 15,920
- 2,693
As I said, if he pulls Zero One and Misogi touch him, Misogi gets trapped in a dimension where time is permanently stopped, if he doesn't touch him, then Fugil himself is sent there, which allow him appear on any place of the battlefield to physically attack Kumagawa.
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #72
Physically attacking someone who has pseudo Low-Godly?
- 15,920
- 2,693
Yes, physically attacking him. But that doesn't matter because of that regen. Does Misogi need to touch him to make Bookmaker?
- 20,509
- 1,590
- Thread starter
- #74
Impale him with a screw.
