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KT's Jujutsu Kaisen Pt. 1: Massive Abilities Revision Thread

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Can always be conceptual spatial manipulation.
That's a bit different, spatial manipulation is just the byproduct of manipulating the concept of Distance. He isn't really directly manipulating space, but whenever the concept of Distance is manipulated he's bringing in and creating infinite space as a consequence.


So yeah I guess the concept of Distance would classify as conceptual spatial manipulation.
 
For Toge, the movie booklet Q&A said that his Cursed Speech can't be used to affect inorganic substances like water:


So we should stick with 'people' and 'Cursed Spirits' instead of 'things', since it is doubtful whether he can affect organic substances that can't hear him.


Is there evidence that Mahito can regenerate with his body completely erased, or is that his soul can survive his body's existence erasure (since souls are extremely connected to body), or even if he can regenerate from his body getting vaporized?
If not, then we should properly drop the Low Godly regeneration. Mahito regenerates by preventing the shape of his soul from changing, and then making the shape of his body conform to the shape of his soul; this alone contradicts Low Godly since he needs a body to reshape.

Mahito says that he can reform even if his body was crushed to bits which confirms High-Mid:
0024-008.png


But can he control individual atoms if his body was atomized? Does he have a body if he was turned to vapor or a puddle of blood?


In addition for the Hollow Purple discussion, there is evidence against dura-neg in the two times we've seen it.
It hit Hanami, but didn't produce clean wounds; blew up half his torso but the wounds are jagged and his ribcage + intestines are mostly there:
0053-008.png


Made a smaller hole on Toji's body than it did on the walls behind him, implying that it is something that can be tanked to various degrees.
0075-016.png
0075-018.png


Wtf Bro?
Screenshot_20211229-182600.png

"Her hand is in the air," what the hell is that argument? Are you saying that she is touching something she doesn't feel and talking so normally about it? Hell, she says it is just a pain in her shoulder and not that there is a barrier on her. The anime supports this
Screenshot_20211229-182817.png
I believe he is saying that the Cursed Spirit is hanging around behind her left shoulder, and not directly on it:
o7Kn4Fs.png
EqHFaXCVoAA-aGO


So she slightly missed the location of the Cursed Spirit's body.
 
I believe he is saying that the Cursed Spirit is hanging around behind her left shoulder, and not directly on it:
o7Kn4Fs.png
EqHFaXCVoAA-aGO


So she slightly misse
For her to touch this part the hand must pass through the head of the curse. Also, it is pretty stupid to assume that she has never touched any part of her back while her shoulder is hurting

And I thought you agreed with non-physical interaction in the past thread
 
That's a big post and I'm only interested in the Purple Discussion.


Neither one of those are really Anti Feats, Red which is a much weaker CT than Purple completely reduce Hanami into nothing. Also it didn't completely engulf Hanami either, so that's not much of an anti feat as much as it is that Hanami didn't get fully hit.


It's the same with Toji. He didn't get exposed to the full blast, and we see that the part that he did get hit by was fully erased. And I wouldn't say "tank" either, nobody tanked Purple with sheer durability so that's definitely misleading to say it can be tanked with durability.
 
So we should stick with 'people' and 'Cursed Spirits' instead of 'things', since it is doubtful whether he can affect organic substances that can't hear him.
Thats fine.
Is there evidence that Mahito can regenerate with his body completely erased, or is that his soul can survive his body's existence erasure (since souls are extremely connected to body), or even if he can regenerate from his body getting vaporized?
If not, then we should properly drop the Low Godly regeneration. Mahito regenerates by preventing the shape of his soul from changing, and then making the shape of his body conform to the shape of his soul; this alone contradicts Low Godly since he needs a body to reshape.

Mahito says that he can reform even if his body was crushed to bits which confirms High-Mid:
So low godly with the needing his body to his exist still?
In addition for the Hollow Purple discussion, there is evidence against dura-neg in the two times we've seen it.
It hit Hanami, but didn't produce clean wounds; blew up half his torso but the wounds are jagged and his ribcage + intestines are mostly there:
It's not just dura neg. It is the expungement of real matter iirc no? Its like imaginary mass hitting real mass and it expunges the real mass right? Either way I don't think the art should limit what the hax of purple will be considered.
 
Shit Yama from Bleach can only erase small portions, but that doesn't mean it's not EE. He bisected the Yhwach clone and not all of him was erased, just the part that was exposed to the blade.
 
I mean how could we bring up the art to go against the hax of purple and say the body didn't get completely erased or there's still parts left? In both instances, the characters are never engulfed by the attack yet we see the attack completely erase other materials.
 
Can't use someone regenerating from it either, someone with Low-Mid regeneration can still regenerate limbs even if said limbs get vaped.
 
Is there evidence that Mahito can regenerate with his body completely erased, or is that his soul can survive his body's existence erasure (since souls are extremely connected to body), or even if he can regenerate from his body getting vaporized?
If not, then we should properly drop the Low Godly regeneration. Mahito regenerates by preventing the shape of his soul from changing, and then making the shape of his body conform to the shape of his soul; this alone contradicts Low Godly since he needs a body to reshape.

Mahito says that he can reform even if his body was crushed to bits which confirms High-Mid:

But can he control individual atoms if his body was atomized? Does he have a body if he was turned to vapor or a puddle of blood?
Mahito can regenerate himself as long as his soul is intact (Scan in profile). End, Low-Godly, no need "Lol wtf but we don't even know about if he can manipulate atoms"

Mahito knows about Gojo's abilities (Which destroy atoms) and has never worried or said "Gojo is the only one who can kill me".

Hell, Muta could blow up Mahito's body at any time but he had to strategically use limited attacks that affect the soul

We already accept Low-Godly in verses like Naruto, where it has much less context
 
0002-033.png

Yuuta should have acrobatics btw

And he's also able to channel ce into weapons like all sorcerers though idk if this is simply energy manipulation or some other ability.
0002-032.png

@KingTempest
 
I guess i kinda disagree with Mahito having Low Godly as well, just cause his regen is soul based doesn't mean he could create a new body in case his soul was removed from his body, his only gimmick is forcefully maintaining the shape of his body, not creating a new one from 0.
 
For her to touch this part the hand must pass through the head of the curse. Also, it is pretty stupid to assume that she has never touched any part of her back while her shoulder is hurting

And I thought you agreed with non-physical interaction in the past thread
Agree with selective intangability for weak Cursed Spirits, and non-physical interaction. Just steelmanning.

That's a big post and I'm only interested in the Purple Discussion.


Neither one of those are really Anti Feats, Red which is a much weaker CT than Purple completely reduce Hanami into nothing. Also it didn't completely engulf Hanami either, so that's not much of an anti feat as much as it is that Hanami didn't get fully hit.


It's the same with Toji. He didn't get exposed to the full blast, and we see that the part that he did get hit by was fully erased. And I wouldn't say "tank" either, nobody tanked Purple with sheer durability so that's definitely misleading to say it can be tanked with durability.
Hanami was weakened due to his weak point eye branches getting pulled out, so not a good comparison. Do you agree that the part of Purple that hit failed to erase Hanami's ribcage?

Can you explain why there are much bigger holes directly behind Toji? If we upscale away from Toji, it should 'erase' his full arm, his shoulder, and part of his leg.

So low godly with the needing his body to his exist still?
By definition Godly Regeneration is with a non-existent body.

It's not just dura neg. It is the expungement of real matter iirc no? Its like imaginary mass hitting real mass and it expunges the real mass right? Either way I don't think the art should limit what the hax of purple will be considered.
Expunging matter is fanon extrapolation and not directly stated as far as I know.

Shit Yama from Bleach can only erase small portions, but that doesn't mean it's not EE. He bisected the Yhwach clone and not all of him was erased, just the part that was exposed to the blade.
The argument isn't from small size, but the implication that somehow the targets of Hollow Purple have their torso erased without their ribcage getting erased, and have the environment erased more than their body.

I mean how could we bring up the art to go against the hax of purple and say the body didn't get completely erased or there's still parts left? In both instances, the characters are never engulfed by the attack yet we see the attack completely erase other materials.
The simplest explanation without needing to jump through hoops is that the targets are more durable than the other materials.

Mahito can regenerate himself as long as his soul is intact (Scan in profile). End, Low-Godly, no need "Lol wtf but we don't even know about if he can manipulate atoms"

Mahito knows about Gojo's abilities (Which destroy atoms) and has never worried or said "Gojo is the only one who can kill me".

Hell, Muta could blow up Mahito's body at any time but he had to strategically use limited attacks that affect the soul

We already accept Low-Godly in verses like Naruto, where it has much less context
I already argued that the scan refutes Low Godly; Mahito maintains the shape of his soul and makes his damaged body conform to the shape of his soul to undo the damage. This mechanisms requires a body, while Low Godly works with non-existence of body.
And yes, there is no evidence I know of that Mahito can scatter or reconstitute his entire body from scattered atoms.

Gojo manipulates atoms to push with Red or pull with Blue, though I don't recall a statement about atomic destruction. Mahito didn't have to worry about any wide-scale techniques due to all the hostages.

Not really, Mahito was too agile and able to dodge his direct attacks, hence Muta relied on trickery to land his Simple Domain tubes.

In Naruto there is surviving space-time erasure. Here there is 'I use my soul to manipulate and shapeshift my already existing body back into shape', which doesn't imply the ability to create a body out of nothing after it is erased.
 
I guess i kinda disagree with Mahito having Low Godly as well, just cause his regen is soul based doesn't mean he could create a new body in case his soul was removed from his body, his only gimmick is forcefully maintaining the shape of his body, not creating a new one from 0.
No Low-Godly will survive having his soul destroyed, because that is the Low-Godly's regeneration limit. If someone can only regenerate with their head, obviously if you destroy their whole body they won't regenerate
As long as the soul is intact, he always regenerates himself
 
Back on my laptop, nyah!
These were ripped from an old, abandoned project of mine.

Yuta Okkotsu
Rika Orimoto
As previously, both Chapter 45 and Chapter 89 established that Cursed Spirits can both:
  1. Be physically interacted with by non-sorcerers; however, most of the times, the non-sorcerer does not notice the Spirit
  2. Phase through walls so long as they are made up of generally low amounts of Cursed Energy
The first one alone should be enough to disprove the idea that the Cursed Spirits are intangible and that interacting with them counts as Non-Physical Interaction, unless you wish to argue that the entirety of the human population possesses NPI for no reason — go ahead if you want. But, what that second one seems to suggest is that powerful and high-grade Cursed Spirits are incapable of phasing through walls because of their high Cursed Energy concentration, something comparable to an object's density, attributing to its state of matter.

This leads me into my second point, involving a scene from Jujutsu High.

Due to the inherent nature of scanlations, for the longest time, people believed that Satoru Gojo could manipulate space and matter on an atomic level due to his mastery of the Limitless technique. However, thanks to the official Viz translations that were released earlier this year, we now know that Satoru "[manipulates] Cursed Energy at an atomic level", which is what enables him to do what he does with Limitless. Now, now, just take that in for a moment. The Limitless allows Satoru to manipulate Cursed Energy at an atomic level. The comment Miguel made, which was based on knowledge he received from a reputable source (i.e., Suguru Geto), implies that Cursed Energy possesses an inherent atomic structure which means that Cursed Energy is a physical construct. Atoms are the building block of all matter, and if Cursed Energy is made up of atoms, then it is obviously physical.
The Fly Head manifested on the shoulder of the bakery clerk, and as more time passed, with the Fly Head growing ever more comfortable on her side, the clerk began to experience discomfort as a result of the weighty feeling placed on her shoulder. Once Kento Nanami exorcised the Fly Head, however, the strain she felt on her shoulder immediately disappeared. This is a simple cause and effect that could only be possible if the Fly Head were both physical and had some sort of weight to it; the Fly Head rested on her shoulder for weeks, and because of that, the clerk lost sleep and suffered through soreness and pain, only to be relieved instantly once Kento removed it from her shoulders.

In another case, way back in Jujutsu High, the daughter of Ms. Saito approached Suguru wanting to rid herself of, once again, tight and sore shoulders and a feeling of breathlessness in her sleep, all of which were a result of a Cursed Spirit violating her without her knowing. However, the moment Suguru absorbed the Spirit and "exorcised" it, the woman was immediately alleviated from her strain which, once again, supports the idea that Cursed Spirits, regardless of their power or status, have a physical form and have a physical influence on the world around them. Unless, once again, you want to argue that everyone in the world of Jujutsu Kaisen just has Non-Physical Interaction — nobody is stopping you.
Some Curses having Possession does not prove they are intangible nor incorporeal.
What are you trying to argue here? That Cursed Energy is intangible because it flows outside the body? Is blood intangible? Even if Cursed Energy itself were intangible, which it is not, Cursed Spirits are condensed bundles of the stuff; the make-up of Cursed Spirits are not inherently identical to Cursed Energy. Luckily, both have evidences of being corporeal, so that is not an issue for me.

To sum it up:
All of this points towards Cursed Spirits having a genuine, corporeal form, rather than an inherently intangible one. Low-level Cursed Spirits are capable of manually phasing through walls and floors, but once they grow more powerful, they lose that ability. It is not an inherent trait.
Why?

The explanations that Akutami gives at the end of chapters and volumes should hold far more weight than the explanations of two math professors that Akutami called on for a fun Fanbook interview. The explanations that these professionals provide, while extremely concise and well-thought-out, are paramount to the ones that Akutami gives in his own book. Like, according to Akutami, Satoru just creates a spatial barrier that slows down those who enter it and press closer to him; but, according to the professors, Satoru is dividing space an infinite number of times in order to create some kind of conceptual shield around him that endlessly resets the distance between him and his target for some other unutterable, technical mumbo-jumbo that Akutami probably did not even imagine while coming up with the Limitless.

Also, "reducing targets to imaginary numbers".
What?
Red which is a much weaker CT than Purple completely reduce Hanami into nothing
Satoru pulverized him with his barrier.
"[Reduced] Hanami into nothing?" We see him go BOOM. We see him splatter.
Also, Red has never reduced something to nothing before.
Also it didn't completely engulf Hanami either
hmph-
where it has much less context
not really...
 
Will reply to Nulls comment about soon since I disagree with virtually everything he's said there and I'm positive I'm not the only one.
 
Gojo manipulates atoms to push with Red or pull with Blue, though I don't recall a statement about atomic destruction.
0004-015.png

Mahito didn't have to worry about any wide-scale techniques due to all the hostages.
What? I am not referring to Shibuya, I am referring to the entire manga. Whenever Mahito appeared he would say that he was unbeatable and indestructible to any attack, except to his natural enemies (Nobara and Itadori). Otherwise, he never mentioned it. Mahito when meeting Nobara even says "Itadori is not my only natural enemy", showing that even he didn't believe that Gojo was a person with the potential to kill him
Mahito maintains the shape of his soul and makes his damaged body conform to the shape of his soul to undo the damage. This mechanisms requires a body, while Low Godly works with non-existence of body
He makes sure that no real harm truly affects him by hiding his soul. "The soul makes the body," and therefore nothing will stop it from regenerating itself as long as the soul is well. That is the context. Mecha himself went after the strategy of attacking the soul and not destroying every cm of the body as he saw that it is more effective (For example here, where he blew up Mahito's secondary body)
 
So the low godly description does say the complete physical destruction, yet Mahito hasn't had this happen and its never been stated, only "crushed". This type of regeneration from your soul or from something else doesn't really cover what low godly is. So I think he should be given type 4 immortality or type 8 based off the soul being what allows him to regen.
 
By the way, let's not make shit out of arguing about Mahito. It's not even on thread, so it's better not to even try to complicate everything.
 
I'm not even gonna address Shadow's last comment tbh, with all due respect these arguments are desperate. Hanami regenerated, hence why his Ribcage was still "in tact." And that's very loose given that a large chunk of his side is gone.


The explanations that Akutami gives at the end of chapters and volumes should hold far more weight than the explanations of two math professors that Akutami called on for a fun Fanbook interview. The explanations that these professionals provide, while extremely concise and well-thought-out, are paramount to the ones that Akutami gives in his own book. Like, according to Akutami, Satoru just creates a spatial barrier that slows down those who enter it and press closer to him; but, according to the professors, Satoru is dividing space an infinite number of times in order to create some kind of conceptual shield around him that endlessly resets the distance between him and his target for some other unutterable, technical mumbo-jumbo that Akutami probably did not even imagine while coming up with the Limitless.


This is literally all irrelevant, by no means are the explanations in the manga better to use than the very detailed explanation that's given to us in the official handbook. The handbook came out first and serves to explain what Aku gave us in the manga. Hell in the scans that I posted about he literally states that he regrets not explaining Infinity well enough in the manga and now he can give a better explanation. To be frank here, this just strikes me as you saying "I don't wanna use the handbook bc I don't like it."


The handbook is what takes priority here. Not the manga where Aku blatantly states that he regrets not being able to explain several abilities fully. There's no way not to use it, and is the equivalent of me not using the well thought out Vivre Card Databook Oda made for One Piece since he wanted to give more details for the series which the Manga couldn't do.


Also yes you heard me correctly "reducing the opponent to imaginary numbers." is what purple does. Purple is a Void and is directly compared to Imaginary Numbers which are nonexistent. When Purple hits an opponent they'll be expunged, essentially turning them into "nonexistence" like an Imaginary number.


First of all, that's not pulverization. That's outright vaporization, Gojo's abilities as a whole work on an atomic level so there's a high probability Hanami was atomized there.
"[Reduced] Hanami into nothing?" We see him go BOOM. We see him splatter.
We never see Hanami go splatter either so this is also false. Hanami was vaporized, not splattered. Use the right terms or don't use them at all because "splatter." insinuates that there's a large puddle of blood left over which there isn't.
Red is stated several times to be atomic destruction, this isn't even an anti feat. This is a resistance to Matter Manipulation for Toji since he took it and wasn't Deconstructed.

I appreciate the try tho,
Lmao what's this supposed to prove? That doesn't prove that Hanami got hit by the full thing, he escaped so he wasn't exposed to the full blast. Shit we even see that the landscape itself was erased, which you failed to mention for whatever reason.


I don't want to sound condescending or anything but we aren't gonna ignore the Handbook just because you think the manga is more legitimate whenever Aku only made this to give us a better explanation.
 
That's meaningless. There's a very small amount of blood left over, that doesn't stop it from being atomic destruction.

The victims of Nagasaki had their blood permanently stained into the ground, does that mean that they were turned into liquid rather than vapor? No. Like I said, this is not an anti feat.
are you, like, purposefully being ignorant to irritate me or something?
I'm not being ignorant at all, and would appreciate it if you didn't label me as such. Furthermore, i could care less if you get irritated or not. It's up to you to get irritated and nothing I've said thus far is irritating in any capacity.

Literally if you get irritated by a simple discussion then debating as a whole isn't for you.
 
Yes a small amount of blood on a wall. So what? I suppose we'll downgrade over half the profiles with Deconstruction just because whatever they hit aren't completely erased from existence.


Again, like I said this isn't an argument to be using. Deconstruction over half the time leaves some residue.
 
Yes a small amount of blood on a wall. So what? I suppose we'll downgrade over half the profiles with Deconstruction just because whatever they hit aren't completely erased from existence.


Again, like I said this isn't an argument to be using. Deconstruction over half the time leaves some residue.
Oh yee... Lord do you remember what this was about?
 
Compared to the size of the subway station? Yeah, that is small.
Compared to the size of Shibuya? Definitely small.

Compared to the size of Hanami? Would you like a tape measurer?
.... Do you have any idea on how anatomy even works? That is indeed a very small amount of blood whenever you consider how much blood there is in your body at any given point.

At best that's 2 liters of blood remaining, Deconstruction doesn't always erase or destroy everything in the body. Most applications of this ability only turn people into sludge and goo, such as Scar from FullMetal Alchemist and Harvest from Darker Than Black. Going by your own logic Deconstruction wouldn't have been given to them in the first place.

Also the fact that you even brought up a tape measurer when talking about blood just speaks volumes in of itself. Goodluck finding the amount of blood in something with a tape measurer because that's not gonna help you at all.
 
So, are you gonna present any actual counterarguments? This game is no longer fun.
Red is stated several times to be atomic destruction
Do you have several proofs?
Gojo's abilities as a whole work on an atomic level
Again, his Limitless allows him to manipulate Cursed Energy on an atomic level. He cannot just manipulate matter.
Lmao what's this supposed to prove? That doesn't prove that Hanami got hit by the full thing, he escaped so he wasn't exposed to the full blast. Shit we even see that the landscape itself was erased, which you failed to mention for whatever reason.
You've got one point to your name.
Kudos.
 
Ah yes, dismissal of my arguments by labeling them as "false counter arguments." because you can't manage to counter them.


Do you have several proofs?
I do actually if you'll give me some minutes to gather the appropriate scans.
Again, his Limitless allows him to manipulate Cursed Energy on an atomic level. He cannot just manipulate matter.
This isn't true either, Red repells and affects all Matter not just cursed energy. If this were the case then Red and his other abilities wouldn't be able to effect anything with their abilities.

There's a reason why it's in the profile in the description, along with Gojo even giving us a statement like this. If Red wasn't capable of some sort of Matter Manipulation then Gojo wouldn't have given us this statement.

Literally read the profile.


  • Cursed Technique Reversal: Red: Satoru reverses the power of Blue, violently ejecting everything touching a void with the divergence of infinity with twice the strength of Blue.

Shit even the atomic stuff is already in his profile "interferes at an atomic level."
You've got one point to your name.
Kudos.
I'd say something snarky here but I'll be the bigger person here.

For the record, it's more than one point to my name. You yourself have none so far. You should cease with your uncalled for projection.
 
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