Korean Outer God Shenanigan (Profile + Cosmology)

[SweetDao]

Hmm. It doesn't quite seem notable enough to be accepted by us

I think we should ask some other staff members because "what is notable enough" and "what isn't" seems to heavily vary depending on the person.

Personally, I feel like a novel that has almost 1M views is largely more notable than surely some other verses or characters on the wiki.

Officially published works that have reached a high level of notability will be considered for inclusion within the VS Battles Wiki. The use of Wattpad and similar fan work sources is prohibited. However, self-published works will also be considered as long as they meet the aforementioned criteria of notability.

Similarly, that "high level of notability" is as vague as it could be.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that we have 1 million views as a minimum for original works that have only been published via public internet sites.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, I think that we have 1 million views as a minimum for original works that have only been published via public internet sites.

I think there are definitely different views on the topic, even among staff members.

Look at what Bambu said regarding another verse when I asked if it could be added out of curiosity:

It's certainly pushing it in terms of notoriety, I think. A few hundred ratings on any given site isn't tons, although it's also a lot different than other media sources we review these things by. For what it's worth, I passed along the review counts to Agnaa, and he said he was inclined to allow it for 500 on a single entry (the highest here being 496).

I would not be surprised if this ends up getting deleted, but without knowing shit about it aside from what's available publicly and online, it seems to meet the absolute barebones minimum requirements.

500 reviews on a single entry for a self-published novel on Amazon seems "to at least reach the bare-bones minimum requirements". Which, obviously, isn't all that great for that particular verse, but in comparison, the one we're currently discussing is miles above it in terms of popularity.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that our safeguard popularity cutoff is 1 million views, so you likely need to wait for a while longer until it reaches that threshold, and Amazon is much harder to gauge.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, I think that our safeguard popularity cutoff is 1 million views, so you likely need to wait for a while longer until it reaches that threshold, and Amazon is much harder to gauge.

Could you ping some staff members like Agnaa to get their opinion on the case?

Because, right now, the prerequisites are really vague and if it's truly "at least 1 million views" then we should change the explanation accordingly.

 

[Antvasima]

Editing Rules:

"For content published on YouTube, or online content for which one can expect similar viewer numbers to be equally reasonable to reach, we require that at least one entry in the canon has at least 1 million views on its own. This doesn't apply for entries created by bigger companies and for entries for which no viewer numbers can be determined. The former are generally allowed, while for the latter, case-by-case consideration is required."

 

[SweetDao]

Editing Rules:

"For content published on YouTube, or online content for which one can expect similar viewer numbers to be equally reasonable to reach, we require that at least one entry in the canon has at least 1 million views on its own. This doesn't apply for entries created by bigger companies and for entries for which no viewer numbers can be determined. The former are generally allowed, while for the latter, case-by-case consideration is required."

I don't think it's talking about the case of webnovels, though? Because, assuming this is true, it would mean that a single chapter of a webnovel has to reach one million views? This is clearly not feasible for most webnovels, even some popular ones. Also, we're assuming that those "views" are genuine, but website like Webnovel.com massively inflate the views due to how their systems works.

Not even talking about other media like video games and such.

Honestly, it feels like a staff discussion should be created because some of the stuff is pretty weird, at least to me.

Anyway, since we're probably not going to reach a middle ground, could you ping someone else you trust so that we can have an external opinion?

 

[Antvasima]

From what I recall, we had a long staff discussion in which we decided to apply this safeguard, in order to not allow enormous amounts of unpopular low-quality works that almost nobody has heard about or is able to verify into our wiki.

My apologies, but I have reached a decision here.

 

[SweetDao]

From what I recall, we had a long staff discussion in which we decided to apply this safeguard, in order to not allow enormous amounts of unpopular low-quality works that almost nobody has heard about or is able to verify into our wiki.

My apologies, but I have reached a decision here.

So, it would need the novel to reach 1 million views total for it to be allowed, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, not for all of its chapters combined obviously. One of its chapters needs that many views.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, not for all of its chapters combined obviously. One of its chapters needs that many views.

Nah, that's insane. By that metric, I'm sure there are some webnovels currently indexed that should disappear.

But sure, you can close this, no point in continuing this then. Thank you for your time.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, not for all of its chapters combined obviously. One of its chapters needs that many views.

Since there are fewer people who speak Korean than speak English, I think the view milestone should be adjusted accordingly, as 1 million was chosen for English.

I think we could, for non-English languages, multiply that milestone by the ratio of English speakers to speakers of that language.

For Korean, that would change the requirement to 53,465 views for one chapter.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. We do aim for an international audience, so I personally disagree with that adjustment. It would swarm us with works from, for example my own language of Swedish, which only has 10 to 11 million speakers, that almost none of our members have heard of or are able to verify if the information in our pages is reliable, and preventing that is a large part of the entire point of our rule.

 

[Agnaa]

Actually, looking at the thread where this rule change was originally discussed, I think you're applying it incorrectly, Ant.

DT had this to say:

As mentioned in this thread I think there are a number of tricky challenges with such a flat number for a wide variety of different content.
I suppose a rule like that can work, but I would prefer to use a formulation that has a stronger emphasis that this is for media that can be considered equivalent in all considerations to English YouTube. In the current formulation, one may argue that anything that faithfully counts votes isn't included in under-representation, but I would argue that applying that to a Japanese novel, with Japanese speakers being just 10% as many as English speakers, makes for a bad measure of notability.
I'm also not sure if we generally would want to apply the same standards to novels and videos. Novels sell less on average and get less "casual views" as they are a greater time investment. What is outstanding for a novel in viewership may be underwhelming for a video.
This also needs a clause regarding works with no view count at all.

And both you and I agreed with it.

I'm going to re-open this thread, since I believe that significantly changes this discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but I still maintain my above-mentioned concerns about the reliability of our wiki as a whole.

 

[SweetDao]

For Korean, that would change the requirement to 53,465 views for one chapter.

If this is a number that we'll ultimately have to work with, depending on if it's agreed upon, I'd say it's extremely more reasonable, although that particular novel doesn't reach that requirement regardless.

It just feels weird for me to have a webnovel with almost 800K views (and, as far as I know, non-inflated ones) doesn't pass the notable requirement.

 

[Antvasima]

If a webnovel has, for example, 100 chapters, I think that it would be excessively lenient, and as such lead to unreliability, to only require 1 million/100 = 10,000 views per chapter or some even more lenient method adjusted to the population size of something published in, for example, the Falkland Islands, or by the number of speakers of the following languages, to use exaggeration in order to make my point about such a rule proposal.

Discover the world’s least spoken languages

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[SweetDao]

If a webnovel has, for example, 100 chapters, I think that it would be excessively lenient, and as such lead to unreliability, to only require 1 million/100 = 10,000 views per chapter or some even more lenient method adjusted to the population size of something published in, for example, the Falkland Islands, or by the number of speakers of the following languages, to use exaggeration in order to make my point about such a rule proposal.

Ant, I think that you may have too many expectations regarding webnovels. Let's take an example. Royalroad is one of the few websites that are popular for publishing online novels.

One of the most popular novel within that platform is this one.

As you can see, it can't even reach the lower requirement that Agnaa mentioned above, let alone yours. Yet, it has almost 50 million views total. According to the current rules, or at least, to your perspective, it shouldn't be allowed in spite of the massive numbers.

It's just not possible, realistically speaking, for a webnovel to reach that level of popularity except for the very high-end ones like Tensura or Maou Gakuin for example and even then, I'm doubtful it could reach a million views on a single chapter.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, maybe a somewhat lower threshold for webnovels might be reasonable then, but the big problem in this case is verifiability. If something is so obscure that only one or two of our members have read something, that causes longterm problems for the reliability of the information in our wiki as a whole, and we also do not want to spam our site with unpopular fan works.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Well, maybe a somewhat lower threshold for webnovels might be reasonable then, but the big problem in this case is verifiability. If something is so obscure that only one or two of our members have read something, that causes longterm problems for the reliability of the information in our wiki as a whole, and we also do not want to spam our site with unpopular fan works.

I dont think this stops anyone from just checking out the novel if they really want to see if the information is truly legit or not. Probably not even that hard just go on a website go to the novel and click a chapter as long as it's properly referenced. I'm sure a good bit of verses on this wiki dont have a lot of people who know about them. It's also just objectively not fan work (something which isnt allowed anyways) if it's an original setting.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, maybe a somewhat lower threshold for webnovels might be reasonable then, but the big problem in this case is verifiability. If something is so obscure that only one or two of our members have read something, that causes longterm problems for the reliability of the information in our wiki as a whole

I think that problem is kinda inevitable. Most published books in the world wouldn't actually be known by multiple active users on this site. Conversely, I was able to find another user who knew a series whose most popular installment only had 83k views. We just have demographics that draw fans of certain series and not others.

We should still have some level of notability safeguards, but I think making that bar high enough that we never get a verse with only one supporter is an unattainable goal.

Plus, in this case specifically, it seems like there's multiple fans of it in this thread.

and we also do not want to spam our site with unpopular fan works.

We exclude those with other rules.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, maybe a somewhat lower threshold for webnovels might be reasonable then, but the big problem in this case is verifiability

I'm glad you're okay with the idea of changing the current requirement, thank you.

If something is so obscure that only one or two of our members have read something, that causes longterm problems for the reliability of the information in our wiki as a whole, and we also do not want to spam our site with unpopular fan works

I strongly agree with this. Although, I have to say that there are already some measures in place to limit such a thing.

Every page should have references, for example, so that anyone having doubt can directly check the corresponding chapter and find the information needed.

If I had to propose something, I think the following would be a good starting point:

- A temporal requirement (A novel that is, for example, a year old at minimum)

- A quantity requirement (at least a novel with a certain number of chapters, with the possibility of case-by-case analysis in the situation where chapters are longer than standard practice)

Some other stuff I thought about are mostly covered by other rules, such has not allowing powerscaling heavy verse and such.

 

[Antvasima]

Just to check, how many views does the chapter for this webnovel with the highest amount of views have?

From what I recall, the individual chapters in my old internet story had several thousands of them, and that was an obscure non-professional work, so I still also maintain that we should have high standards of notability for our content.

 

[SweetDao]

Just to check, how many views does the chapter for this webnovel with the highest amount of views have?

If you're asking about the one I sent you as an example, we can't see the singular chapter views, only the total of the novel and the "average numbers of views". As you can see here, the average views are around 35K.

 

[Antvasima]

If you're asking about the one I sent you as an example, we can't see the singular chapter views, only the total of the novel and the "average numbers of views". As you can see here, the average views are around 35K.

Hmm. That really isn't much. My fanfiction story was quite obscure, and even that reached several thousand views per chapter. Very popular fanfiction stories vastly eclipse 35,000 views per chapter.

 

[SweetDao]

Hmm. That really isn't much. My fanfiction story was quite obscure, and even that reached several thousand views per chapter. Very popular fanfiction stories vastly eclipse 35,000 views per chapter.

Fanfictions, by their definition, will naturally attract more people to it. It can't be said to be the same for original works, since those writers have no basis for their target audience. Also, I do not know which website you used to write and post your story on, but it's also totally possible that some of them inflate the views due to their inner-system.

Because, it's one thing to deny some webnovels due to X or Y requirements, but right now, you're more or less closing the door to 99% of the webnovels available. Like, I'm not even joking by saying absolutely NO webnovels available on RoyalRoad can pass your requirements.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that we might be able to lessen our requirement to 100,000 views for the initial chapter of webnovels if what you say is accurate. We still need some safeguards in place after all.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, I suppose that we might be able to lessen our requirement to 100,000 views for the initial chapter of webnovels if what you say is accurate

Are you sure we can't put in place other requirements instead of a hard cold "view number" ?

It seems very much arbitrary, because let's assume a novel that has his first chapter reach 100,000 views or above, but every subsequent one is lesser and lesser, until only a few hundred people are interested in reading. Well, according to your message, it would be acceptable to index.

Now, what if a novel that has a consequent and consistent amount of followers (let's say, few thousands) but never reached the 100,000 views needed on his initial chapter, does that mean it wouldn't be allowed?

I understand that you're trying to prevent some abuse, Ant, but I think you can see that it's not as simple as it seems. The best way would be to do a case-by-base basis, but that would be too time-consuming for staff, I'd say.

 

[Antvasima]

Case-by-case is even less realistic, given that many of our staff members will likely be far too lax in that regard, and also constantly contradict each other, and an important part of my job is to try to ensure the wellbeing of our entire wiki, not individual verses, so in lack of better options we need easy to understand and follow safeguards in place.

I also do not remotely have the available time to argue here forever about this.

 

[SweetDao]

I also do not remotely have the available time to argue here forever about this.

I understand this, but I feel like there is still much to discuss. We can maybe just wait for Agnaa instead of back and forth so that it spare you time and stress.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have reached a conclusion here, and will not sacrifice the overall wellbeing of our wiki for the sake of relatively obscure single verses. My apologies.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Hmm. We do aim for an international audience, so I personally disagree with that adjustment. It would swarm us with works from, for example my own language of Swedish, which only has 10 to 11 million speakers, that almost none of our members have heard of or are able to verify if the information in our pages is reliable, and preventing that is a large part of the entire point of our rule.

This has gotta be some form of subtle discrimination, cause what do you mean we can't have BoBoiBoy on this website cause you don't live in Malaysia? Or El Chavo del Ocho because you don't live in Mexico?

Notoriety is heavily dependant on region and culture. The average Brazillan kid probably knows who Kamen Rider Black is but can't tell you who The Doctor is.

Setting this completely arbitrary standard on the basis of being "international" ironically makes us less diverse.

 

[Bernkastelll]

This has gotta be some form of subtle discrimination, cause what do you mean we can't have BoBoiBoy on this website cause you don't live in Malaysia? Or El Chavo del Ocho because you don't live in Mexico?

Notoriety is heavily dependant on region and culture. The average Brazillan kid probably knows who Kamen Rider Black is but can't tell you who The Doctor is.

Setting this completely arbitrary standard on the basis of being "international" ironically makes us less diverse.

Also, i think its important to mention that its actually pretty much possible to be aware if the verse is 'unrealiable' alone just by looking at the content of the profile, usually the verses made by random powerscalers are high tiered and almost like a CTRL C + CTRL V of our Tiering System and usually have a terrible writing and low ratings

And even if somehow the stuff I mentioned are overlooked, it's quite simple to prove that the verse is unreliable, it takes just a single person to read it and make a CRT showing the proofs that it should be indeed deleted, nobody would oppose its deletion

The average Brazillan kid probably knows who Kamen Rider Black is but can't tell you who The Doctor is.

as a brazilian, i can guarantee you the average brazilian kid knows neither of these

 

[Antvasima]

This has gotta be some form of subtle discrimination, cause what do you mean we can't have BoBoiBoy on this website cause you don't live in Malaysia? Or El Chavo del Ocho because you don't live in Mexico?

Notoriety is heavily dependant on region and culture. The average Brazillan kid probably knows who Kamen Rider Black is but can't tell you who The Doctor is.

Setting this completely arbitrary standard on the basis of being "international" ironically makes us less diverse.

That is not what I meant. I just meant that we cannot lessen our restrictions just because some languages have fewer people speaking them.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, i think its important to mention that its actually pretty much possible to be aware if the verse is 'unrealiable' alone just by looking at the content of the profile, usually the verses made by random powerscalers are high tiered and almost like a CTRL C + CTRL V of our Tiering System and usually have a terrible writing and low ratings

And even if somehow the stuff I mentioned are overlooked, it's quite simple to prove that the verse is unreliable, it takes just a single person to read it and make a CRT showing the proofs that it should be indeed deleted, nobody would oppose its deletion

I suppose that these seem like valid points.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I suppose that these seem like valid points.

Usually, stories made by powerscalers already have shady starting points, Hybrid Mage is an example of this, a novel writer by a powerscaler and the second chapter is like this, just skimming through the initial chapters is enough, these 2 screenshots are from second chaptersof the novel, its quite easy to notice when a novel was written just to be used in batteboarding plataforms