Anyways pepto please just provide the clear evidence and logical chain for everything you said.
And i don't mean the blog i mean it in a "explain like I'm 5" Type
You mean the entire blog or just the explantation as to why I disagree with Halcandra being inside the extra-dimensional road? One is far simpler than the other, but I don't know if I'm skilled enough to explain it to a 5 year old with no experience in VS debating lol.
You need to follow a blog to know edits on it.
The entire reason this thread got locked to begin with was so I could edit my blog. I kinda figured you would have looked through it once it opened back up.
The logic in all this part is pretty bad. The way it transcends time is "a weird way that we don't know", knowing that should satisfy anyone. I don't need to make up rules about it and explain more things than it because it doesn't exist more things than it to be explained.
You can't even say that it just teleports people through time or something? That would already be better than nothing, but I've considered it, along with many other options, and I still stand by what I said in the blog, especially after the edits. When the Low 1-C cosmology ranking has an explanation for how the time travel works in transcendent realms (supported by statements and showings) whereas the tier 2 cosmology explanation doesn't, that makes things look pretty bad for the latter argument. It's could still usable as a low-ball, though, since a tier 2 key for Kirby top tiers would be neat no matter what.
I do, in fact, "know better than you", you claimed the place had xInfinity more complexity than a regular universe based on logic that doesn't make sense whereas I limit myself to what we know and is reasonable. To claim that because you made up rules and I portrayed something vague & unknown as something as vague & unknown means that "I don't know any better than you" is an illogical conclusion. Legit any other headcanon about how the transcendence works (if the time travel doesn't cut it) would make infinitely more sense than to claim it's infinitely more complex than how it really is,
And yet you didn't come up with a single alternative explanation for it, now debunk many of my arguments in the blog, but that's perfectly fine at the moment. We don't need to focus on that right now. Let's keep discussing whether or not Halcandra is in the road and the rest will come after. It's gonna make the conversation lighter and easier for both of us, as well as everyone else reading it. Let's take this step by step. That's why I'm crossing out everything related to this. Let's keep it in mind, but save it for later.
as other headcanons should be claiming infinitely less, so no, it's not "what makes the most sense given what we know", that cannot be the case. Nor do the the writers' choice of words make it more clear as the words (transcend/be beyond time and space) don't mean what you think they mean, which we already told you and have writen in the Tiering FQA.
The same Tiering FAQ the I specifically address in the blog.
That bit of the Doomers was just to point out how bad your point was, to go far as to say that it's more likely that Kirby's doing that is seems like an excuse you're coming up, it's not makes the most sense.
To say that GK works by his own chronological order is redundant, he would still have it if some of his fights were canon to himself and others weren't. None of that supports your point even more at all, that doesn't make sense, in no part there something you say makes anything you claimed more valid or what I said less valid.
Yeah, he would, but if he was just referring to that, then why wouldn't he just say the order in which the fights take place? Anyway, the reason it supports my argument is because even WOG has no idea how to place the fight in a concrete Kirby timeline, but still knows that some theories can be made when it comes it how they relate to Galacta-Knight himself. At worst, it supports neither of our points, and it's just another instance of WOG making things more complex rather than clarifying things
(like in the Sonic series). He basically just tells us to keep theorizing, but to not always expect everything to be connected. So to take this "food for thought" as any more than that when there's other evidence to contradict it seems dishonest.
You're making up a new rule to dismiss it, all we know is:
He was in the road because everything in the verse that we know of resides inside the road. Entire universes are inside of it. You said so yourself, but moving outside of those universes, but still within the road means you're moving in a 5D realm.
And here you claim that
- The distance from which he was pulled somehow matters -> so he wasn't in the road?
He could have been in a universe inside the road or simply in the road itself (more on that later). We don't know where and when Star Dream pulled him from, and we're not even sure if Star Dream DID pull Galacta-Knight into Another Dimension, resulting in his boss fight in Return To Dreamland's True Arena. That's just me playing along with your idea, because I beleived it for so long that I'm still trying to make it work, but not only is it just based off food for thought in a Miiverse post, but it brings up the question of why would Star Dream allow Galacta-Knight to stop half-way through his trip just to fight Kirby when that goes against the reason he summoned him? That would mean Galacta-Knight fought Kirby and/or Meta-Knight twice in a row without a break (First, in RTD, then in Meta-Knightmare Returns, and sometime later in the True Arena of Planet Robobot)? Why would Star Dream allow that when the whole reason he summoned Galacta-Knight was for him to fight Meta-Knight and give him a run for his money?
It's just as wrong as it sounds.
Cosmologies can have multiple levels of dimensionality overlapping with each other. In fact, that's how most Low 1-C and higher cosmologies work. The higher realm tends to comprises the lower one within itself. Like how 3D space comprises 2D "slices" within an infinitesimal portion of itself. Or like the speed force in DC, for example, which is a 6D realm above the multiverse, comprising all lower dimensions within it. By technicality, any normal person walking down the street would be walking through the speed force, but that's unquantifiable unless they leave the boundaries of thier universe to move in a space which is exclusive to the speed force (and the realms above it). I'm not sure how much VSBW still abides by that logic after the teirng system FAQ, but seeing as Blazblue's immeasurable and Low 1-C characters have survived the downgrades that multiple other immeasurable characters got affected by, it seems it still does.
This has nothing to do with what you were saying before and so I have no idea why it works to make you believe what you were going for. The road still has no proof to be between universes and this goes against how in TKCD the only reason as to why Parallel beings connected to it was because someone made it so. The road being above universes just changes its location while all the rest of the things you were saying remain the same, with no reason as to why would GK get dragged into a Halcandra while in the road if they're not the same thing. Now, if you make up even more new rules about how that being above universes changes things up than yes, it does changes things, but you should not do that.
By that interpreatation, Star Dream could have still dragged Galacta-Knight through the road even through Another Dimension, despite its normal flow of time. That's why it would matter that the road is above the dimensions. Again, that's only going by your interpretation of the Miiverse post though. I'm starting to see more flaws in it the longer I think about it.
The question is broken, it is a transcendence over time, which is a concept, you don't need to say that it's not for no reason. You wrongly believe that because it's that then that means tier 1 stuff when that's not what "transcendence" means, we already point this out in the Tiering FQA. Transcendence is just a word whose meaning doesn't = tier 1 stuff.
This is once again best kept for later, but you should read the blog in the meantime. It already explains why the "tier 1 stuff" interpretation of transcendance is the most logical one, especially since you're not providing any alternatives.
So the planet has floweys and outer space doesn't, and you make a deal out of it. That's an incredibly illogical think to come up with. What you do want to see deteriorate in space? We only see stars and stuff and move on quite too fast for anything to die at our sight. There're normal foes there with no reason to be immortal. Those last 2 sentences should not take place here.
You're still mis-understanding my arguments. I never once asked the game to show flowers blooming in the space of Magolor's universe in order to debunk my point, since I always said that Magolor's universe has a regular flow of time, and that the road is superior to it. Are you telling me that I'm unreasonable in my demands for your proof that the road and Another Dimension are inheritely the same? Because even you acknowledge the massive amount of differences and distinctions that they have.
Yes it "does"/would have, if you believe "A" and "a" to not be the same and someone from "A" says it's from there and also "a" then that objectively shows them being the same. You grabbed random stuff to claim you were correct for no reason.
No reason? You still can't see
any kind of reason for me saying that? Besides, I don't even consider "a" and "A" to be the same location
in nature. Just that "a" is inside of "A". They overlap with each other, because that's how higher dimensions work in relation to each other, but they're not the same in nature, since that would imply the road doesn't exist as described, and is simply another universe no different from any other in Another Dimension. However, there's so much proof that's not the case.
"Degrading" the other's arguments makes a debate, it's helpful to point out how I believes a bad argument to be bad and a nonsensical one to be nonsensical. It's sets up standards. And given how most of yours are, you should very much take in what others have to say to them.
I already do. In fact, I used to buy everything your blogs said until I started thinking for myself.
Because if he wanted to as you say, and if it was as you say, he would have opened a portal to the road, go a few centimeters into it, made another portal to Popstar while inside the road, and gone there to take it over. But he didn't, there was no "crossing as little distance as possible", after the portal to the road there was a huge distance to be traveled to then make the portal to Popstar, this doesn't at all prove that before this he was outside the road,
Exactly! My whole point is that he wasn't outside the road, but outside of Another Dimension, in the space between dimensions where only the road would exist (which makes even more sense when you consider that the space between universes is know as the 5th dimension according to the speed page). As for why Magolor didn't cross two centimeters and create another portal to lead him closer to Pop Star, there are many factors that explain why he didn't do that. First, it's important to establish that the portal is clearly intent on taking Magolor to Pop Star. He even says that Kirby's planet is going to be the first victim of his tyranny. So, since you think that Halcandra is inside the road and that the space they travel through is somewhere else, then that means your only defense left is the idea that Magolor travelled to a previously unexplored dimension to mind control Doomers to help him take over the universe. Not only is this pretty presumptuous, but it once again brings up the queston of "Why bother?". Why would Magolor need an army of Doomers to control the universe? One of your blogs has a similar, yet seemingly contradictory presumption which holds
some water. It says that Magolor was likely plotting to control the universe via mind-control. If he has such an abillity via the infinite power of the crown, why would he need to control Doomers firsthand? And most of all, if he DID control Doomers, then why did he say Kirby's planet would be the first victim of his control? Also, while Magolor does use teleportation and portals inside the road, and it barely allows him to gain any distance on Landia, Kirby and co, which makes sense since not only are Kirby characters stupid fast, but Magolor's portals and teleportation only have low multiversal range, so it makes it damn near impossible to gain meaningful distance in a Low 1-C realm.
if there anyway was a distance to be done after going into the first portal then the first portal could have better well been to go further into that distance in the road, which could have been done from just deeper into the road.
Could you rephrase that?
Beyond me how you can claim that the Lor went in no time at all after having just said that why would Magolor not want to be crossing as little distance as possible? If that didn't raise an eyebrow then how about Halcandra being "really far away" even tho the reasons for the Lor going there fast are implied to be speed-based?
The road is the only way to travel between universe as far as we've seen in the Kirby series. It's not like he had any other option.
We can't infer that Halcandra is connected to the road in the same way that Pop Star in its own universe separate from the road, that's a headcanon based on bad reasoning. You said a bunch of unconnected stuff and ended with "therefore this".
Except it's litterally said to be in front of the road rather than anywhere inside it If they intented for it to be inside, they would have said "at the edge" of it, like how they did with Pop Star at the edge of the universe, of the divine terminus at the precipice of another dimension/the farthest reaches of the universe, or Nova at the edge of the galaxy, or so many other examples.
I already know the Lor travelled inside "the road" when the game only shows it going from one portal to the other in an instant, I have something like this writen in my blog about the JP guides and how we should really get our hands on them.
Oh yeah, right. So you agree that the Lor does it, but you don't agree that Magolor did it when he took the crown? Surely, I'm mis-understanding what you said here, because if I'm not, then the reasons you would claim this are beyond me.
Once again, you just said a bunch of unconnected stuff and ended still agreeing with what you said for no real reason. None of that has any proof of Halcandra being in another universe outside of the road. Cinematic timing just made us see the Lor go faster or made us perceive how Kirby & co. went after Magolor, the portals being portals doesn't say anything about their range (let alone if the weird use of time AD has
does something the portals may also
do something about it), Magolor's planet is really far away, and many reasons
- He didn't, it was just cinematic timing
- As before but adding in how he's a bit slower than his Lor
How would BOTH of these be cinematic timing? The first one, I can maybe understand, but there's no cut do indicate a timelapse. The Lor just gets into the portal and comes out the other side in practically no time like Magolor said it would.
- He was mind controlling Doomers as he went to have with him and take over Kirby's universe
Already adressed.
What?
There's no reason as to why Magolor, Kirby & co. weren't passing by other universes as they go in the road given the images of Halcandra and Popstar seen in the background.
Interesting. Can you send me a link that shows what you're referring to exactly? I just want to be sure we have the same image in mind before I respond to this.
Because the Lor, Magolor, Kirby & co. had to go over the line and pass over universes to reach Magolor's Halcandra at the end. The road doesn't exist between all universes and it only has reasons to maybe be above Kirby's universe, not all others.
How did Doomers drift to the past, then? How did ancient war machnes and acient warriors go into the future?
There's other examples and statements I could bring up, but they open a new can of worms I'll have to keep for later since this is already long enough.
3th time you say everything in the verse is is connected to the road for no reason. They just portal'd beings into it to somehow make it easiler to summon them somewhere else and/or from other point in time.
"No reason"? I'm just gonna ask you to re-read the blog if you really think that... I'm not gonna type another 1000 word list of reason why I beleive that it does. The Dream Kingdom alone proves that it's not exclusive to Kirby's universe, and the fact that it's a "far away realm" means that it's far from the only one. In fact, you even said that the road contains multiple universes, which means that you already know that at least most of the verse is inside it, and therefore connected to it.
Another Dimension has many universes in it and the one Magolor's Halcandra is in is at the end/at the other front/lies at the end, what's at the start and middle of this multiverse are other universes, supported by the repeated images of Popstar and Halcandra in the background as Kirby & co. fly there.
Then why aren't Kirby top tiers quintillions of time FTL (or whatever a feat of travelling through so many universes in mere seconds would output)?? Also, why is Magolor's universe suddenly at the edge of Another Dimension? Where did that all come from? None of this even resolves my confusion at the thing you just said. It sounded like you were saying that there are 3 or 4 universes (depending on if you consider the road a universe of its own, which you see to do) circling each other somehow and that Magolor went through the final one to loop back into the first one instead of taking the second one that lead him there to begin with. If that sounds confusing, that's because it is. Your headcanon is what lead me down this tangeant because your words don't even add up or make any sense by themselves, especially after this paragraph.
Your headcanon doesn't make sense, it's the 4th time you claim AD is between for no reason other than being beyond space and time can be said of any dimension outside of Kirby's, in relation of the space and time of his universe.
I edited in the words
"other than" since I assume that's what you mean to say. Anyway, that's not my only reason, and you would know it if you had read the blog.
- Road:
- As a road one can "walk"/fly in it if one feels like it (which makes sense as it was a level Kirby flew)
This is unlike the way any level on Halcandra could be described, so by your own logic, Halcanrda should be in its own universe rather hanging out in extra-dimensional space outside of it. It's not like this definition of a road really supports EITHER of our arguments though.
- And it does connect things as you can go from 1 dimension in it to another dimension in it, the latter bit the Lor can do while going in it as Magolor stated it in RtDL that it can travel to other dimensions aside from how it already showed to do that and it's seen flying in it in GK's [something] attack.
- "Inter" in inter-dimensional: Doesn't necessarily mean it's between all universes, dimensions and everything in the verse, but maybe how it itself has dimensions in it, or maybe how it's between a few universes without being between all, and by maybe I mean that it takes far less speculation to come up with those takes. Really we don't know why it's called inter-dimensional so we must not come up with anything for it and claim it as true.
So now you admit that it's large enough to contain entire universes and should therefore exist between them?
Lies at the end/in front can still mean as part of a something. Front is "the side or part of an object that presebts itself to view or that is normally seen or used first; the most forward part of something". Magolor's wording alone can mean it being inside in the edge or just outside it.
Just outside of it. If it was in the edge, they would have said "at the front of it" or really anything else less vague than that.
