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Kirby Cosmology Upgrade Part 2

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I‘ll start off by breaking down the relevant parts of the blog arguing Low 1-C. My replies will be in bold.

“In the English localizations, Another Dimension's road was stated to be extra-dimensional and beyond thespace-time continuum, along with being part of an Extra Dimension(which is a real life term to describe qualitatively higher dimensions) beyond space and time. It's also referred to as another world beyond time and dimensions, in most fan translations of this Tweet.”

The first scan is describing a machine that can provide transportation through space-time. You additionally use a Wikipedia link to argue that because the term extra-dimensional is used to describe higher dimensions above the fourth, it must apply in this particular scenario. It’s very common for fictional verses to describe dimensions as being universes, and Kirby is a clear example of this. You’re disregarding in-verse context to push for a higher tier. As for the statements of being beyond space-time, a different universe will naturally have its own space-time separate from the main universe, and therefore be outside its sphere of influence. This doesn’t necessarily imply a qualitative superiority.

“Translated (by the doc above): "An ancient swordsman who can destroy everything due to his strength. Not a clone, he was awakened from an unknown another dimensional road beyond space-time. Records remain that he has been sealed in various eras, but he has never been terminated."

The kanjis used for "space-time" are "空間"(space, as the dimension of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move) and "時間"(time). The kanjis that ended up being translated as "beyond" are "超えよ", which means "exceeding", meaning that Another Dimension's road is outright superior to space-time along with being outside of it.”

Another website linking to a Wikipedia page. Exceeding can also mean going outside of the space-time continuum’s limits, which the road does by linking other dimensions in the Kirby verse.

“Official translation (the doc didn't have a new one): "Kumazaki: The True Arena is like another “what if” scenario, so you can’t really consider everything to be connected. Furthermore, the extra-dimensional road that opens up when Galacta Knight appears transcends space-time, so it’s difficult to give it a concrete place in the timeline. But if you consider the stages in which Galacta Knight appeared in the past three games, I think that will give you some food for thought."”

A road that links with other dimensions which have their own space-time would transcend the space-times of individual dimensions, yes.

“"ジャマハローア！！ すっごく強いパワーが集まると、別次元の なんていったかしら…そうそう！イクウカンに通じる「穴」が 開かれるって、ハイネス様が言ってたわよ！ 時も次元も超えて、別の世界に通じちゃうから キケンなんですよぉ～、って言ってたわ！！ #星のカービィスターアライズ"

Translated (by the doc above): "Bonjam! Gathering immense, strong power, we're having something to do with that other dimension... oh, I get it! Lord Hyness said he's opening a hole into another dimension! As we cross time and space, he said "Whatever danger could there be...!" in that other world!"

I'm showing this translation for maximum transparency, as I've relied on the doc for most other translations, but the truth is, this one is outright wrong. It doesn't even have a mention of dimensions like every other translation despite the fact that the term is clearly brought up.

Translated (more accurately): "Bonjam! When very strong power gathers, a hole leading to... hmm. What was it that he said? Yes, yes! Lord Hyness said that a hole leading to Another Dimension will be opened! He said it's dangerous because it leads to another world which exceeds time and dimensions!"

"時間" is "time", and more notably, 次元 (jigen) is "dimensions". As everysource will tell you, jigen always refers to mathematical dimensions. The fact that Another Dimension exceeds them means it's superior to the 4 physical dimensions that comprise Kirby's space-time continuum.”

More links that direct to Wikipedia articles, again disregarding context in-verse. ”Exceeding time and dimensions” could potentially be Low 1-C if used under the proper context but not here.

“It makes up the space between dimensions, and allows its users to travel to any point in space-time, including the distant realm of the Dream Kingdom and practically every time period as shown with Galacta-Knight and HR-D3. When Another Dimension was consumed by dimensional walls, they seemingly traveled to the past. Either that, or Kirby travelled to the future in order to stop them and restore Another Dimension. Or maybe the dimensional walls outright started to consume time like any other spatial dimension without travelling to a time period in particular. All 3 of these explanations require some assumptions but they also each strongly imply that the space of Another Dimension has a superiority over time (especially the third one, which makes more sense than its complexity might lead you to believe but is still just an interpretation). Do keep in mind that this doesn't apply to Magolor's home universe, though. The doc linked at the top of this blog firmly establishes that in its translation of Magolor's dialogue.”

First scan is just someone hypothesizing about what exists in the space between dimensions. Second and third are just dimensional travel. Now hold on a second, if AD was Low 1-C like you claim it is then why would time travel have any effect on it? Just like that you proved it isn’t 5D.

“Translated (by the doc above): "You did it, Kirby! On my ship, the right wing is back! When all the parts are equipped and the ship is ready to fly, I’ll take us to my homeland. My homeland is far away… It’s just past another dimension’s road that connects with this star. It’s a long way away, but when this ship is completed, it’s a jump away. So, look forward to it."

This also doesn't apply to the other various parallel worlds inside of Another Dimension, since the latter specifically leads to the former just like with Halcandra, as stated in numerous descriptions

Translated (by the doc above): "Another Dimension Heroes: Through the influence of Hyness’s continued prayers, a hole in another dimension was opened, leading to various dimensions. And in these dimensions, you can become the Dream Friends! However, strong bosses beyond belief are waiting. Gather hearts under another sky, and the light of hope... create it!"”

This is simply saying that AD can act as a gateway to other dimensions, you are extrapolating this to mean it physically encompasses them. So to conclude this post, I have not seen anything here that would qualify as Low 1-C.
 
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ShadowWarrior1999 said:
The first scan is describing a machine that can provide transportation through space-time. You additionally use a Wikipedia link to argue that because the term extra-dimensional is used to describe higher dimensions above the fourth, it must apply in this particular scenario. It’s very common for fictional verses to describe dimensions as being universes, and Kirby is a clear example of this. You’re disregarding in-verse context to push for a higher tier. As for the statements of being beyond space-time, a different universe will naturally have its own space-time separate from the main universe, and therefore be outside its sphere of influence. This doesn’t necessarily imply a qualitative superiority.
Click to expand...
Bringing this up is kind of pointless because the only reason I brought up the english translations of these statements was in case they somehow still mattered to anyone who read my out-dated first blog.
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Another website linking to a Wikipedia page. Exceeding can also mean going outside of the space-time continuum’s limits, which the road does by linking other dimensions in the Kirby verse.
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The cool thing about Wikipedia is that it links its own sources at the bottom of each page so you can verify the legitimacy of thier claims for yourself. Not that you said anything that could actually challenge these straightforward linguistic claims that are also backed up by the translators I contacted and linked earlier in the thread.
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
A road that links with other dimensions which have their own space-time would transcend the space-times of individual dimensions, yes.
Click to expand...
You missed the point. The only reason I underlined the word "transcend" was to bring attention to which kanjis were originally used to substitute that word. I even brought up the definitions of the kanjis behind "space-time" and "dimensions" because they allow to even more easily indicate a superiority over those entire axes.
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
More links that direct to Wikipedia articles, again disregarding context in-verse. ”Exceeding time and dimensions” could potentially be Low 1-C if used under the proper context but not here.
Click to expand...
Which means you still agree with the legitimacy of the statement in relation to the FAQ requirements? The only thing getting in its way is in-verse context? That makes perfect sense given the latest staff input, but I want to make sure.
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
First scan is just someone hypothesizing about what exists in the space between dimensions.
Click to expand...
That space between dimensions IS AD. Even the current cosmology blog says so.
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Second and third are just dimensional travel. Now hold on a second, if AD was Low 1-C like you claim it is then why would time travel have any effect on it? Just like that you proved it isn’t 5D.
Click to expand...
What? Time travel has no effect on AD. AD is what allows that kind of space-time travel to happen in the first place.
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
This is simply saying that AD can act as a gateway to other dimensions, you are extrapolating this to mean it physically encompasses them. So to conclude this post, I have not seen anything here that would qualify as Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
Is the only thing you need to agree with the upgrade just reasonable evidence that AD encompasses the other dimensions of the verse within it rather than being a thin tunnel merely connecting them? If so, why is that the only difference between a legitimate Low 1-C structure and an illegitimate one when my sources already prove the the OG Japanese texts point towards a qualitative superiority? If not, what more could you even need?
 
looks-into-the-camera-like-the-office-the-office.gif
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Patience is a virtue my friend
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I know, I know.

It's just so damn frustrating sometimes how slow this CRT is going.

I've seen politicians come to agreements faster than this thread!
CloverDragon03 said:
Anyways, I've read the blog and took a look at the counterarguments made and how they were responded to. Low 1-C looks fine by me.
Click to expand...
Me: Sees a mod finally answer this CRT.

Also me:
Aladdin Jafar GIFs | Tenor
 
Yes, calc group members, content moderators, and thread moderators are technically equal in our staff "hierarchy", for lack of a better word, but they are all focused on and have privileges regarding handling different areas.

Thread moderators, administrators, and bureaucrats are the staff members that are supposed to specialise in evaluating content revision threads.

Anyway, can somebody write a sufficiently thorough, but easy to understand, explanation regarding what our staff members currently need to evaluate here please, so I can call for some of them to hopefully help out afterwards?
 
Holy shit. If we count what Elizhaa says here as a vote leaning towards agreement, we already have the aproval of the 3 staff members usually needed to aply an upgrade. Look at how far this thread has come!
Antvasima said:
Anyway, can somebody write a sufficiently thorough, but easy to understand, explanation regarding what our staff members currently need to evaluate here please, so I can call for some of them to hopefully help out afterwards?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. Don't the OP and Ultima's comment summarize it well enough? If not, the rest of this thread should be enough to fill in the gaps without being too tideous to read since it's mostly filled with bumps anyway. I've posted several summaries already, if that's what you mean.
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. Don't the OP and Ultima's comment summarize it well enough? If not, the rest of this thread should be enough to fill in the gaps without being too tideous to read since it's mostly filled with bumps anyway. I've posted several summaries already, if that's what you mean.
Click to expand...
I meant that almost no staff member, myself included, has the available time and interest to read over 260 posts in order to try to figure out a coherent context from this thread.

As such, we need a single post that explains all of the relevant points regarding what currently needs to be evaluated here, the main arguments and counter-arguments in this thread, and which staff members that have agreed with what so far.

After that has been done, I can call for other staff members and ask them for input.
 
I'm on it. I'll cover every counter-argument that's been made against this thread and how they were delt with. I'll need some time as well though, and if my rundown ends up being biased, make sure to call me out.
 
Thank you. Please try to be objective and not make it too hard to understand the contexts of what you are describing.
 
To make a brief summary of the main argument, Another Dimension is referred to as being superior to space and time in several statements. Another statement even states its superiority to physical dimensions as a whole. That alone would be Low 1-C according to the FAQ, which makes sense because you can't be superior to the very foundations of every conceivable 4D structure without being 5D. There is no ambiguity as to what the statements mean because the original Japanese text uses kanjis to word things in a specific enough way to leave no room for skepticism within reason.

Ultima agrees with the premise of the upgrade without even needing to point out how much the statement of dimensional superiority supports it. Merely being superior in nature to the space time continuum should be enough to reach Low 1-C since the latter is already infinite.
CloverDragon also agrees after seeing my response to the objections you'll see below.
Elizhaa seems to agree but chose to stay neutral for reasons he didn't quite elaborate upon

Now let's go over the relevant opposing arguments we've seen from staff and non-staff. The first one being:

1: "The meaning of kanjis changes depending on the context", which is true, but that doesn't stop it from being an Affirming A Disjunct Fallacy. Just because kanjis change meaning depending on the context doesn't mean they don't also change meaning depending on how they're written, and in this case, the way they're written leaves no room for skepticism. If there was counter context to indicate that the statements can't point towards a qualitative superiority, this argument could hold water, but there isn't. The in-verse context backs up my claim more than anything.

2: "Something being a mathematical dimension is just as non-evidence as it being a dimension. Kanjis and meaning are worthless to us". The former claim is directly contradicted by the FAQ, and rightfully so, since statements and meaning are likely the most crucial part of VS debating. If the dimensions AD is stated to surpass are confirmed by kanjis to be mathematical/physical, that's not something we can just ignore. It's every bit as important as the rest of the statement. So yes, kanjis do matter, as they create the sentences that make up every statement in a Japanese piece of media. And obviously meaning matters too, but that goes without saying.

3: "Your sources link to a Wikipedia article". Only one of them does, and even then, you can look at the bottom of the page to see the sources Wikipedia pulled from for this very straight forward linguistic claim, which I personally verified with a translation community and a fluent Japanese speaker. "Wikipedia bad" doesn't quite work here.

4: Um, that's it, I think? If I missed any relevant argument, please be sure to let me know, but all of the other ones I see are genuine straw-man fallacies. I tried to add them regardless, but they just seemed like waste of space in what is supposed to be an easy go-over for busy staff members to read. I read over the whole thread, but if you find anything worth adding, I'll edit it into this comment. This was meant to be a summary of the exchange that followed the objections raised against this thread, and when you look at it factually, none of my refutes have been responded to, so this response is really as unbiased as you can get without pointlessly extrapolating from bare bones responses.

Ant, if you will, could you bring back Elizhaa and Elixirblue? Both of them said they were following the thread, but haven't commented in a while.
 
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Peptocoptr27 said:
To make a brief summary of the main argument, Another Dimension is referred to as being superior to space and time in several statements. Another statement even states its superiority to physical dimensions as a whole. That alone would be Low 1-C according to the FAQ, which makes sense because you can't be superior to the very foundations of every conceivable 4D structure without being 5D. There is no ambiguity as to what the statements mean because the original Japanese text uses kanjis to word things in a specific enough way to leave no room for skepticism within reason.

Ultima agrees with the premise of the upgrade without even needing to point out how much the statement of dimensional superiority supports it. Merely being superior in nature to the space time continuum should be enough to reach Low 1-C since the latter is already infinite.
CloverDragon also agrees after seeing my response to the objections you'll see below.
Elizhaa seems to agree but chose to stay neutral for reasons he didn't quite elaborate upon

Now let's go over the relevant opposing arguments we've seen from staff and non-staff. The first one being:

1: "The meaning of kanjis changes depending on the context", which is true, but that doesn't stop it from being an Affirming A Disjunct Fallacy. Just because kanjis change meaning depending on the context doesn't mean they don't also change meaning depending on how they're written, and in this case, the way they're written leaves no room for skepticism. If there was counter context to indicate that the statements can't point towards a qualitative superiority, this argument could hold water, but there isn't. The in-verse context backs up my claim more than anything.

2: "Something being a mathematical dimension is just as non-evidence as it being a dimension. Kanjis and meaning are worthless to us". The former claim is directly contradicted by the FAQ, and rightfully so, since statements and meaning are likely the most crucial part of VS debating. If the dimensions AD is stated to surpass are confirmed by kanjis to be mathematical/physical, that's not something we can just ignore. It's every bit as important as the rest of the statement. So yes, kanjis do matter, as they create the sentences that make up every statement in a Japanese piece of media. And obviously meaning matters too, but that goes without saying.

3: "Your sources link to a Wikipedia article". Only one of them does, and even then, you can look at the bottom of the page to see the sources Wikipedia pulled from for this very straight forward linguistic claim, which I personally verified with a translation community and a fluent Japanese speaker. "Wikipedia bad" doesn't quite work here.

4: Um, that's it, I think? If I missed any relevant argument, please be sure to let me know, but all of the other ones I see are genuine straw-man fallacies. I tried to add them regardless, but they just seemed like waste of space in what is supposed to be an easy go-over for busy staff members to read. I read over the whole thread, but if you find anything worth adding, I'll edit it into this comment. This was meant to be a summary of the exchange that followed the objections raised against this thread, and when you look at it factually, none of my refutes have been responded to, so this response is really as unbiased as you can get without pointlessly extrapolating from bare bones responses.

Ant, if you will, could you bring back Elizhaa and Elixirblue? Both of them said they were following the thread, but haven't commented in a while.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I will call for other staff and knowledgeable members then.

@Eficiente @Elizhaa @ElixirBlue @Kirbyelmejor @DarkLordofShadows @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) @CrimsonStarFallen @EMagoIorSouI @Bobsican @KingEzran @James_Plays_4_Games @Eseseso @Seol404

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?
 
My reasons for disagreeing still stands, while their has been clarifications of some subjects I don't judge them as having given sufficient evidence and explanations on the nature of how Another Dimensions exceeds dimensions.
Everything12 said:
Personally I disagree, because while I says it exceeds/surpasses Time and Dimensions, the knowledge I have as a Kirby fan has it that it does not give any information to how it does so. The Tiering system requires not just exceeding dimensions, but exceeding them to a certain qualitative degree. Meanwhile the Another Dimension only has the above tweet talking about it exceeding dimensions and no explanation given beyond that.

Basically I disagree because it doesn't give enough of an explanation of how greatly it exceeds dimensions and many over Verses have been denied Tier 1 because they also don't give such details.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for helping out, Everything12.
 
Antvasima said:
Would you be willing to evaluate this please?
Click to expand...
I remember this upgrade being attempted before! Back then I agreed at first but then I disagreed, though I found both sides sensical, so I guess I ended up being neutral about this upgrade. Nothing has changed since then because I'm not very accustomed to discussing 5D and beyond, and I still haven't been active with Kirby of the Stars debate.
 
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