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Kirby Cosmology Upgrade Part 2

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@Antvasima At the moment, we have a secondary source regarding transcendence. In the primary source, we have ambiguity regarding how the faded images in AD space should be interpreted. Is it sufficient to use the secondary source statement to narrow the interpretation of the primary source?
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Antvasima At the moment, we have a secondary source regarding transcendence. In the primary source, we have ambiguity regarding how the faded images in AD space should be interpreted. Is it sufficient to use the secondary source statement to narrow the interpretation of the primary source?
Click to expand...
Effi did say the Twitter statements were good to use in case you're wondering.
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
Those are the same points I made months ago though
Whatever. I'm glad CloverDragon can make them finally be heard. Thanks for the help btw
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I gotchu
Firestorm808 said:
@Antvasima At the moment, we have a secondary source regarding transcendence. In the primary source, we have ambiguity regarding how the faded images in AD space should be interpreted. Is it sufficient to use the secondary source statement to narrow the interpretation of the primary source?
Click to expand...
I’m not Ant but to my knowledge, secondary sources can be used as long as no contradictions are found between them and the primary sources. Of course, Ant actually knows what the standard is
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I’m not Ant but to my knowledge, secondary sources can be used as long as no contradictions are found between them and the primary sources. Of course, Ant actually knows what the standard is
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From what I've seen and from what makes the most sense, I'm pretty sure this is how it goes.
 
Another Dimension contains (likely) 4-D structures within it, something that is even listed on the profiles with the “likely 2-C” rating. In addition, such structures are depicted in Another Dimension as flat, fading projections, and a secondary source has a statement about Another Dimension that says it transcends mathematical dimensions.

Does this qualify for a (likely) Low 1-C cosmology for Another Dimension? That’s what needs answering. If I’m missing anything, I’ll add it in
 
CloverDragon03 said:
If I’m missing anything, I’ll add it in
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I agree that those duplicate images being depicted in a way in the remake as orbs (they don't appear to fade in and out in the remake trailer) with what we know of explored dimensions being analogous with parallel versions of their world would make sense that they are universes "visibly" contained this way with the images within being flat. I don't think that we need guides to spell that much out for us, with the jp star allies translations giving us that context of parallel worlds/dimensions/universes.
 
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Firestorm808 said:
@Antvasima At the moment, we have a secondary source regarding transcendence. In the primary source, we have ambiguity regarding how the faded images in AD space should be interpreted. Is it sufficient to use the secondary source statement to narrow the interpretation of the primary source?
Click to expand...
Recurrently, yes, but I need to know further specifics.
 
Well, I barely remember any specific information from this thread.
 
That you are talking about upgrading Kirby. I have just tried to keep things organised in terms of staff responses. I have not actually evaluated the contents of your arguments, or at least I do not remember them anymore
 
Antvasima said:
That you are talking about upgrading Kirby. I have just tried to keep things organised in terms of staff responses. I have not actually evaluated the contents of your arguments, or at least I do not remember them anymore
Click to expand...
Ok... here we go again. Another summary. Hopefully the last one.
Accross multiple statements, Another Dimension is stated to be superior(超える) to space, time, and dimensions(次元).
According to TheNinthHour's translation and the many sources I linked throughout the blog and the thread, 超える does in fact translate to superiority, and 次元 translates to dimensions in the mathematical/physicial sense, which perfectly suits the FAQ requirement stated at the end of the "What tier is transcending dimensions?" question. If the FAQ by itself isn't enough to explain how straight-forward of an upgrade this is, I explain why superiority over those kinds of dimensions is inherently 5D in this context here. In addition, AD contains universes within itself and binds them together in space and time, as shown by how it's used throughout the series. This is the "primary source" Firestorm is referring to when he's asking if it could confirm the legitimacy of the secondary source (the Twitter statement linked earlier which, as Effi said, is already fine to use by itself so long as it's not contradicted anyway).
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
Ok... here we go again. Another summary. Hopefully the last one.
Accross multiple statements, Another Dimension is stated to be superior(超える) to space, time, and dimensions(次元).
According to TheNinthHour's translation and the many sources I linked throughout the blog and the thread, 超える does in fact translate to superiority, and 次元 translates to dimensions in the mathematical/physicial sense, which perfectly suits the FAQ requirement stated at the end of the "What tier is transcending dimensions?" question. If the FAQ by itself isn't enough to explain how straight-forward of an upgrade this is, I explain why superiority over those kinds of dimensions is inherently 5D in this context here. In addition, AD contains universes within itself and binds them together in space and time, as shown by how it's used throughout the series. This is the "primary source" Firestorm is referring to when he's asking if it could confirm the legitimacy of the secondary source (the Twitter statement linked earlier which, as Effi said, is already fine to use by itself so long as it's not contradicted anyway).
Click to expand...
Well, it seems to make sense to me at least, but I am not a good person to ask.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @KingPin0422 @Pain_to12 @Everything12 @Planck69 @Agnaa @GreatIskandar14045

What do you think about this?
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
Accross multiple statements,
Click to expand...
just one and another twitter statement
Peptocoptr27 said:
According to TheNinthHour's translation and the many sources I linked throughout the blog and the thread, 超える does in fact translate to superiority, and 次元 translates to dimensions in the mathematical/physicial sense, which perfectly suits the FAQ requirement stated at the end of the "What tier is transcending dimensions?" question.
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I dont know where you are getting mathematical of physical sense from, that is your own definition of it, as that translates to "levels".

Anyway, been the space that binds universe together is not enough for ontological difference, neither is being the space between timelines.
Is there any other feat or statement, cause a single transcendence statement with no added context and it been the space between universes, is not enough for ontological difference
 
Pain_to12 said:
just one and another twitter statement
Click to expand...
The first is clearly directly from the games. The Twitter statement is officially fine to use just as they were before. The other statements show up in the blog, and I even left out a few from there.
Pain_to12 said:
I dont know where you are getting mathematical of physical sense from
Click to expand...
The translation I got from two Japanese speakers including one from this very Wiki I linked in the very comment you responded to. Doesn't seem you read it. I also linked multiple reliable sources that back up these translations multiple times in the thread and in my blog. You're clearly not caught up, hence why every argument you say up to this point is something that has been debunked already. You don't even have to go through the whole thread to see why. Just the last two pages and the blog. If you can't do that, then you're just here to waste space-time (pun intented).
 
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Peptocoptr27 said:
The first is clearly directly from the games. The Twitter statement is officially fine to use just as they were before. The other statements show up in the blog, and I even left out a few from there.

The translation I got from two Japanese speakers including one from this very Wiki I linked in the very comment you responded to. Doesn't seem you read it. I also linked multiple reliable sources that back up these translations multiple times in the thread and in my blog. You're clearly not caught up, hence why every argument you say up to this point is something that has been debunked already. You don't even have to go through the whole thread to see why. Just the last two pages and the blog. If you can't do that, then you're just here to waste space-time (pun intented).
Click to expand...
Again, what is the nature of this transcendence, your translation says it is of another level/higher level
that is not maths or physics in anyway especially since nothing hints it to be so, and nothing of sort in kirby.
So you can have hundreds of transcendent statements, but if you dont have the nature of the transcendence to be ontological, then it is not of a higher tier.
Firestorm808 said:
@Pain_to12

I'll compile the previous determinations for a clearer picture. Currently away from home.
Click to expand...
okah thanks, I will wait for that
 
Pain_to12 said:
no it is not
'Cho jigen' just means Hyper dimension, not mathematics stuffs
Click to expand...
You just exposed yourself as someone who hasn't even bothered to read the statements. Nowhere does it say "Cho jigen". You're probably thinking of the Solaris statement or sonething. Please come back when you actually have a good understanding of the topic at hand. This thread has gone on for way too long for interactions like these to have any value.
 
Pain_to12 said:
no it is not
'Cho jigen' just means Hyper dimension, not mathematics stuffs
Click to expand...
The translations we have are backed up on an extreme level, argue the feats presented by them sure, but what gives your translation the authority to trump our current one?
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
You just exposed yourself as someone who hasn't even bothered to read the statements. Nowhere does it say "Cho jigen". You're probably thinking of the Solaris statement or sonething. Please come back when you actually have a good understanding of the topic at hand. This thread has gone on for way too long for interactions like these to have any value.
Click to expand...
Uhhhhm, read the scan you sent and stop acting like everything is trying to annoy you, if you cannot handle conversations due to stress, take a day off.
The scan you sent, the one that is supposed to be the one that proves mathematical transcendence is simply talking about another dimension, and leads you to a world beyond time and space. In fact the statement "beyond time and space" if you have other strong context to it is enough for the low 1-C you are claiming, but I dont see any other strong argument as the twitter post can be a suporting argument not the main one to begin with.
So I will wait for @Firestorm808 he wants to send the complete arguments, let me see it
Pikaman said:
The translations we have are backed up on an extreme level, argue the feats presented by them sure, but what gives your translation the authority to trump our current one?
Click to expand...
never said the translation is wrong, i said "jigen" or "cho jigen" for full does not mean mathematical dimensions, it is used to refer to size and volume e.t.c. in its literal form, either way it is semantics and not necessary here
 
So I was contacted by someone who was contacted by QuasiYuri who has this to say about all this:
QuasiYuri said:
Something I find awfully annoying is people trying to pull upgrades/interpretations/headcanons out of the Japanese text while spreading misconceptions or outright lies regarding the language.
One such example is the word 次元 (Jigen), which means dimension.
In this post I’ll explain how this word is often brought up to up the tier of some characters and why it is in fact not any different from the English word (although I doubt it’ll change much)
The main problem comes from the idea that 次元 only refers to dimensions as in literal dimensionality/”spatial dimensions” and higher dimensions; and that if the japanese text says the word, then it means what you thought was another kind of dimension is automatically something else.
For instance, some people use it to argue 5D Kirby or 5D to whatever Mario (as can be seen in the screenshots below); or use the term 超次元 (Chô Jigen) to justify things such as Outerversal/1-A tier, which was used for verses like Tenchi Muyo! or Sonic in the past.
First things first: Yes. 次元 CAN mean dimension/dimensionality the way we understand it in physics.
An easy not-to-scientific example would be Space Dandy’s Ending X Jigen e Youkoso, which uses the words 一次元 (Ichijigen), 二次元 (Nijigen) and 三次元 (Sanjigen).
Here 次元 is used with whatever number (ichi=one; ni=two, san=three), with the three words meaning one-dimensional, two-dimensional and three-dimensional.
It basically has the same structure as the english way which is “number + dimensional (次元 in the japanese’s case).
That said, words like Senpou don’t have anything to do with dimensions as seen in fiction (as claimed by the logic behind Super Paper Mario’s world destroying higher dimensions), and refers to the dimensions of something as in their size (or, to quote the meaning it refers to “a measurable extent of a particular kind, such as length, breadth, depth, or height.”)
It’s merely a synonym of proportions/measurements.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%AF%B8%E6%B3%95#Japanese
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/%E5%AF%B8%E6%B3%95/
Now there’s the terms 高次元 (Kô Jigen) and 超次元 (Chô Jigen), which some people misunderstand; thinking that 超次元 (Chô Jigen) implies some complete separation from 高次元 (Kô Jigen) and usually trying to claim the former’s mention as a 1-A feat/statement.
高次元 (Kô Jigen) simply means High/Higher Dimension. Nothing to say regarding this; I think most debaters know what that is.
https://jisho.org/search/%E9%AB%98%E6%AC%A1%E5%85%83
超次元 (Chô Jigen) on the other hand is often misunderstood.
It translates to transdimension(al), superdimension(al) (i.e: Solaris from Sonic) or hyperdimension(al) (Hyperdimension Neptunia being the prime example).
The three basically being synonyms; all referring to a structure/object/whatever with more than 3 dimensions of space.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/.../%E8%B6%85%E6%AC%A1%E5%85...
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/transdimensional
https://www.wordsense.eu/%E8%B6%85%E6%AC%A1%E5%85%83/
Some might think having several words for similar things is redundant, but synonyms or close concepts being expressed through different words is true for every language.
As such, 次元 (Jigen) can indeed be used to talk about dimensions and dimensionality as defined by physics; with 高次元 (Kô Jigen) and
超次元 (Chô Jigen) being the japanese words for higher dimensions and super/hyper/transdimensional.
Now that we established that the words involving 次元 (Jigen) are just the translated equivalent of our own. Let's see how the same is true for parallel dimensions.
Some people have been claiming that it can only refer to physics because of the existence of the word 異世界 (Isekai; Another World).
However it is as wrong as it gets; since there's a hell lot of examples (from well-known franchises) using either 次元 (Jigen) or 異次元 (Ijigen; Another Dimension)
Inazuma Eleven, with Endou's Dimensional Hand
https://inazuma-eleven.fandom.com/wiki/Ijigen_The_Hand
The entire Yu-Gi-Oh D.D. archetype (Different Dimension in english, 異次元 in japanese); which gets its name from the characters being thrown in another dimension and BFR'ing people.
https://yugipedia.com/wiki/D.D.
Brozong's dex entry as well as similar ones who talk about other dimensions/world and make use of 異次元 (Ijigen)
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/.../Bronzong_(Pok%C3....
Or episode 270 of Dragon Ball Z (as well as the entire Outer Space attack filler) which uses 次元 (Jigen) for the dimensions involved as well as the japanese name for the ability.
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Rip_in_the_Universe
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/.../revision/latest...
And, to put the nail in the coffin; the wikipedia page of the word actually mention that it can be used that way in fiction, just like with english.
(The relevant section is in the
転用表現 -Other meanings- section, in the second part explaining its meaning as 世界 (World))
As a bonus: the first part explains how saying "he's of a different dimension" and suchlike is a common metaphor to put emphasis over a huge difference, and not literaly saying something is in a remote dimension (think of Iihiko in Medaka Box, whose statement is exactly this yet is mistaken as literal by more than one person)
https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AC%A1%E5%85%83
Tldr;
次元 (Jigen) and its associated words work the exact same as they do in english, and people should stop trying to use japanese to lie to others or act as if it was some magical runes. It's a language like any other.
Most of the time, the translator knows which is which and will translate accordingly to begin with.
Click to expand...
 
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Thank you for helping out. 🙏

Would QuasiYuri be willing to come back and help us out at some point if we unban him?
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out. 🙏

Would QuasiYuri be willing to come back and help us out at some point if we unban him?
Click to expand...
What exactly did he do to get banned?

If it's minor then unbanning him wouldn't be so bad.

But if it's major then we shouldn't unban him just for the sake of a CRT
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out. 🙏

Would QuasiYuri be willing to come back and help us out at some point if we unban him?
Click to expand...
No, i don't care how willing he wants to come back or not, he directly said the n-word onsite and admitted to sockpuppeting. That's a perma ban offense. If normal users, even ones which are extremely helpful towards the site get perma banned for sockpuppeting and remain perma banned, than someone who sockpuppets AND blatantly uses racial slurs onsite should also remain perma banned as well, just because he was a helpful mod doesn't lessen his offenses.

If you need help with anything ask some normal users or mods and we'll most likely help when available, if you don't have enough mods willing to help you than make more normal, upstanding and experienced users mods. Simple as. Not allowing back already perma banned mods.
 
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