Kirby Cosmology Upgrade Part 2

[Antvasima]

Okay. Did you reject this revision earlier then?

 

[Everything12]

Yes.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

 

[Antvasima]

Did Eficiente and Firestorm808 also reject this revision thread? If so, I think that it seems like it will not be accepted.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

When it comes to Jigen, I've made my point very clear. If my translation is accurate, so is the upgrade. Any gripe with TheNinthHour's translation must be taken to him and other translators. I hate to do him like that but it's obvious nothing I say can make a difference in that regard, no matter how many sources support my claim. Regardless of the conclusion you chose as far as that specific kanji is concerned, the notion that AD is superior to 4D space-time remains unchallenged by every reasonable measure. To assert it isn't 4D is absurd, but that's where we're at right now, and this is what the upgrade would be if you chose to reject 5D, which you can only do if the definition of Jigen asserted by the most sources I could find and two Japanese translators is somehow proven wrong.

 

[Antvasima]

Did Eficiente and Firestorm808 also reject this revision thread? If so, I think that it seems like it will not be accepted.

When it comes to Jigen, I've made my point very clear. If my translation is accurate, so is the upgrade. Any gripe with TheNinthHour's translation must be taken to him and other translators. I hate to do him like that but it's obvious nothing I say can make a difference in that regard, no matter how many sources support my claim. Regardless of the conclusion you chose as far as that specific kanji is concerned, the notion that AD is superior to 4D space-time remains unchallenged by every reasonable measure. To assert it isn't 4D is absurd, but that's where we're at right now, and this is what the upgrade would be if you chose to reject 5D, which you can only do if the definition of Jigen asserted by the most sources I could find and two Japanese translators is somehow proven wrong.

@Everything12 @Eficiente @Firestorm808

What should we do here?

 

[Firestorm808]

I am neutral to the proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Eficiente]

Thanks for all the work here. I still disagree, and will have to ask if some more work can be done to put the reasons used to disagree with this on a blog in an organized way.

 

[Antvasima]

You can do so if you wish, yes.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Thanks for all the work here. I still disagree, and will have to ask if some more work can be done to put the reasons used to disagree with this on a blog in an organized way.

You fled the thread in the middle of our debate and explicitely left it in the hands of other staff members. Now you have the audacity to come back like nothing happened. The least you could have done is state your current reason for disagreeing. The whole Jigen discussion is once again gonna have to be taken to the translators of the Wiki since two Japanese speakers backing me up somehow isn't enough to prove the legitimacy of the translation. Even if Jigen was absolutely no different from the english word for "dimension", I have to say that your reasoning for disagreeing with even 4D AD is absolutely absurd given all the info that we have.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

You can do so if you wish, yes.

People are still skeptical about TheNinthHour's translation. What we need is to discuss it with him and bring other translators if needed.

 

[Eficiente]

I read the thread from the point I left, my reasons are much the same.

You can do so if you wish, yes.

Well, I wanted to see if someone else could propose themselves to do it.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

If I'm not mistaken about who wrote what, then it's confirmed that Another Dimension is transcendent compared to time in the mathematical dimension sense, but this is so close yet so far from what this thread is trying to achieve. We don't know that it infinitely transcends time, to the point where infinite temporal dimensions are lower-dimensional. There's nothing else in Kirby's series that's big enough to compare Another Dimension to in order to support the statement of it being beyond time in the sense that it's 5D. Even if something is outright stated to be 5D, we don't know that it actually is like that to the standards of the VS Battles Wiki, so with Another Dimension having less clear statements about its dimensionality, it's better to use the weaker interpretations that are more definite.

I'll give a comparison example that doesn't involve aspects of dimensionality complexity, to make this less confusing to understand. Even if Void Termina being stated to be the "destroyer of worlds" was meant in the sense of universal destruction instead of celestial body destruction, the story doesn't provide enough information to clearly suggest that he could destroy universes, so powerscaling aside, the VS Battles Wiki has no reason to regard him as that strong even though it's a possible interpretation based on words that were indeed used. Someone who's prone to silly mistakes yet who's immersed in this topic, such as myself when I was new to the VS Battles Wiki, would make the mistake of asking if Void Termina is downplayed, because I already had the preconception of Void Termina being a universe destroyer based on my interpretation of statements about him that didn't synchronize with the more likely and accepted interpretation until later. So, on the topic of the dimensionality of Another Dimension, even though mathematical dimensionality was being referred to in the statements considering it beyond time, it doesn't necessarily mean that the deep meaning is what you expect it to be. We don't see that Another Dimension is in a whole infinite layer of reality above 4D infinity, and the only implication of it being so are statements that can be interpreted in different ways, therefore it's reasonable to regard the proposed cosmology upgrade as questionable.

To avoid double standards and overstating character capabilities on the VS Battles Wiki, I think that it's best to not regard Another Dimension as 5D. If pages representing other fictional works contradict this conclusion, then it's better to downgrade those ones instead of making Kirby's series another one with heavily debatable tier 1 justifications.

 

[Antvasima]

If I'm not mistaken about who wrote what, then it's confirmed that Another Dimension is transcendent compared to time in the mathematical dimension sense, but this is so close yet so far from what this thread is trying to achieve. We don't know that it infinitely transcends time, to the point where infinite temporal dimensions are lower-dimensional. There's nothing else in Kirby's series that's big enough to compare Another Dimension to in order to support the statement of it being beyond time in the sense that it's 5D. Even if something is outright stated to be 5D, we don't know that it actually is like that to the standards of the VS Battles Wiki, so with Another Dimension having less clear statements about its dimensionality, it's better to use the weaker interpretations that are more definite.

I'll give a comparison example that doesn't involve aspects of dimensionality complexity, to make this less confusing to understand. Even if Void Termina being stated to be the "destroyer of worlds" was meant in the sense of universal destruction instead of celestial body destruction, the story doesn't provide enough information to clearly suggest that he could destroy universes, so powerscaling aside, the VS Battles Wiki has no reason to regard him as that strong even though it's a possible interpretation based on words that were indeed used. Someone who's prone to silly mistakes yet who's immersed in this topic, such as myself when I was new to the VS Battles Wiki, would make the mistake of asking if Void Termina is downplayed, because I already had the preconception of Void Termina being a universe destroyer based on my interpretation of statements about him that didn't synchronize with the more likely and accepted interpretation until later. So, on the topic of the dimensionality of Another Dimension, even though mathematical dimensionality was being referred to in the statements considering it beyond time, it doesn't necessarily mean that the deep meaning is what you expect it to be. We don't see that Another Dimension is in a whole infinite layer of reality above 4D infinity, and the only implication of it being so are statements that can be interpreted in different ways, therefore it's reasonable to regard the proposed cosmology upgrade as questionable.

To avoid double standards and overstating character capabilities on the VS Battles Wiki, I think that it's best to not regard Another Dimension as 5D. If pages representing other fictional works contradict this conclusion, then it's better to downgrade those ones instead of making Kirby's series another one with heavily debatable tier 1 justifications.

@Eficiente @Everything12 @Firestorm808

Do you agree with the analysis quoted above?

 

[Eficiente]

Sure, the first paragraph covers it well.

Even if something is outright stated to be 5D, we don't know that it actually is like that to the standards of the VS Battles Wiki

I wish I could quote somewhere in our rules a bit of text that said around the same as this bit of your comment I quoted now. The wiki is still young when tackling this topics, nowhere does it even say that something may be called 4D, 5D, etc, and higher dimensional w/o being so by our standards.

 

[Ego]

Holy...moly...

 

[Firestorm808]

@Eficiente @Everything12 @Firestorm808

Do you agree with the analysis quoted above?

As mentioned before, we have a usable transcendence statement, but we need proof of qualitative superiority to go along with it.

That's why we were discussing the use of the Orbs in the AD.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

As mentioned before, we have a usable transcendence statement, but we need proof of qualitative superiority to go along with it.

That's why we were discussing the use of the Orbs in the AD.

The discussion about the orbs has only to do with opinion. There isn't story information about them to support anyone's ideas. We can't know what specific entities they are aside from being sphere-shaped background visuals that look like other locations in the game. The VS Battles Wiki prioritizes using confirmed information instead of enabling the use of opinionative theories, so the orbs shouldn't be used as evidence. The fact that the depictions were flat in the original Kirby's Return to Dream Land but were changed to orbs in Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe goes to show that they are purely in the background for the aesthetic purposes, and the specifics of what they are don't matter.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally also think that James makes sense above.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

We don't know that it infinitely transcends time, to the point where infinite temporal dimensions are lower-dimensional.

You have to quantify this based on other examples because in many and I mean many higher dimensional structures, the passage of time still exists, and under any idea of physics too you will never "physically" transcend a temporal dimension. So even if we wanted to discuss that, it's heavily arbitrary in terms of reference.

Also, this goes for everyone, but are we not glossing over the fact that Another dimension specifically treats (what we have said and agreed on to be infinite sized for the sake of the rating) multiple dimensions as finite in comparison to it? If the AD as a space, is qualitatively larger than the multitude of universes it contains, that's a clear and blatant form of trivialization regardless of the kanji.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

You have to quantify this based on other examples because in many and I mean many higher dimensional structures, the passage of time still exists, and under any idea of physics too you will never "physically" transcend a temporal dimension. So even if we wanted to discuss that, it's heavily arbitrary in terms of reference.

Another Dimension is stated to be beyond time, which has been well-established in this thread already, so I didn't need to clarify that a passage of time doesn't exist in it, but the burden of proof is still on other people to prove that "beyond time" means that it reaches tier 1 by infinitely outclassing tier 2-A, instead of just being an extent within tier 2. By writing this, I'm paraphrasing what is written in the Tiering System page itself and I'm avoiding doing the appeal to extremes fallacy. It's not arbitrary, unless what's written in the Tiering System is arbitrary, but if that's the case then this thread is not the place to have that discussion.

I don't know what your point is about physics not allowing anything to physically transcend time. Fiction doesn't need to align with nature. As far as I'm aware, in real life, the fifth mathematical dimension isn't something that humanity has legitimately discovered, and is only something we can ponder about and use our imagination to implement specific details in science-fiction. The VS Battles Wiki tries its best to have tiers for 5D power and above that are accurate to what it might scientifically be, and I'm simply following its logic.

Also, this goes for everyone, but are we not glossing over the fact that Another dimension specifically treats (what we have said and agreed on to be infinite sized for the sake of the rating) multiple dimensions as finite in comparison to it? If the AD as a space, is qualitatively larger than the multitude of universes it contains, that's a clear and blatant form of trivialization regardless of the kanji.

I didn't gloss over it. Post number 820 explains why the details aren't useful in the discussion.

 

[Firestorm808]

I personally also think that James makes sense above.

I also lean towards agreeing with James.

 

[Antvasima]

So is there anything that we should do here based on what James said, or should we finally close this thread?

 

[Pikaman]

If @Peptocoptr27 still has investment in this thread, as it’s OP they should probably have the opportunity to respond to @James_Plays_4_Games’ and other’s comments

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is true.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Another Dimension is stated to be beyond time, which has been well-established in this thread already, so I didn't need to clarify that a passage of time doesn't exist in it

That's not how dimensions work under many cases, since in models such as LED's for brane cosmology or additional ones under symmetry breaking there's always a flow of time. This is because, regardless of additional orders of magnitude, time is a necessary object for change and the progression of events. However if I recall correctly, according to Eficiente's blog, that statement was adherent towards a singular dimension within AD. Another good example of my claim would be Einstien's field and mass equations create a fourth spatial dimension that inherently makes the structure of our universe larger than a precedented space-time, but time still has a clear effect over it.

but the burden of proof is still on other people to prove that "beyond time" means that it reaches tier 1 by infinitely outclassing tier 2-A, instead of just being an extent within tier 2. By writing this, I'm paraphrasing what is written in the Tiering System page itself and I'm avoiding doing the appeal to extremes fallacy. It's not arbitrary, unless what's written in the Tiering System is arbitrary, but if that's the case then this thread is not the place to have that discussion.

To me, the "beyond time" statement is moot, you can't quantify it. And if you could, I'd need an example since that prerequisite isn't something I've handled before. But I can tell you that the physical difference of size and a couple basic ideas of higher dimensional structures, that this is a very clear case of tier 1, as it wouldn't make sense for a space that is noted as significantly larger than several dimensions that we say are infinite in size, to be of same caliber as those said dimensions. It explicitly would have a nature that is beyond the quantization of its smaller elements.

I don't know what your point is about physics not allowing anything to physically transcend time. Fiction doesn't need to align with nature.

The point is that it's not very common from my experience to physically be greater than a temporal dimension, let alone "infinitely". Unless that rubric is of course situated in Reality-Fiction layers which is not the case here.

I didn't gloss over it. Post number 820 explains why the details aren't useful in the discussion.

You misunderstand. I'm not arguing for the orbs or for fading pictures that go in and out. I'm arguing that the space, which is quote beyond space-time continuums, not only encapsulates them, but treats them as finite. And the only argument against this notion is from what I remember "a multiverse can contain universes too".

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

That's not how dimensions work under many cases, since in models such as LED's for brane cosmology or additional ones under symmetry breaking there's always a flow of time. This is because, regardless of additional orders of magnitude, time is a necessary object for change and the progression of events. However if I recall correctly, according to Eficiente's blog, that statement was adherent towards a singular dimension within AD. Another good example of my claim would be Einstien's field and mass equations create a fourth spatial dimension that inherently makes the structure of our universe larger than a precedented space-time, but time still has a clear effect over it.

As I explained already, this is not one of those "many cases". If time is necessary for the change and progression of events, then it would be illogical for Another Dimension to be inhabitable, but since it is inhabitable, it's unlikely that Kirby's series treats time this way, so time flowing despite Another Dimension being beyond time isn't a requirement. It's possible for it to treat Another Dimension in a variety of ways, but we can't be certain about anything beyond what is confirmed.

To me, the "beyond time" statement is moot, you can't quantify it. And if you could, I'd need an example since that prerequisite isn't something I've handled before. But I can tell you that the physical difference of size and a couple basic ideas of higher dimensional structures, that this is a very clear case of tier 1, as it wouldn't make sense for a space that is noted as significantly larger than several dimensions that we say are infinite in size, to be of same caliber as those said dimensions. It explicitly would have a nature that is beyond the quantization of its smaller elements.

If I'm not addressing what you have in mind here, then please see the final paragraph of this message and explain where you got your information from. If it's already in this thread, I might have missed it or forgot about it.

The statement is indeed unquantifiable, hence it's an overestimation to regard Another Dimension as 5D using these kinds of statements. Another Dimension being described as "extra-dimensional" is also vague. That could just be referring to how it's a multiverse instead of a universe. I don't mean this as in "having extra dimensions" by the way. I mean this as in "even if something is outright stated to be 5D, we don't know that it actually is like that to the standards of the VS Battles Wiki, [...]."

The point is that it's not very common from my experience to physically be greater than a temporal dimension, let alone "infinitely". Unless that rubric is of course situated in Reality-Fiction layers which is not the case here.

This just means that you personally haven't seen many entities like this in fiction. I'm not familiar with 5D entities either, but I'm still using the Tiering System page to form my conclusion that they must be infinitely greater than time to qualify. I don't make the rules.

You misunderstand. I'm not arguing for the orbs or for fading pictures that go in and out. I'm arguing that the space, which is quote beyond space-time continuums, not only encapsulates them, but treats them as finite. And the only argument against this notion is from what I remember "a multiverse can contain universes too".

Do you have evidence of Another Dimension encapsulating universes and treats them as finite, aside from unquantifiable statements like Another Dimension being "beyond" space and time? Would that even be treating the universes insignificantly enough for Another Dimension to qualify as 5D? The Tiering System page states that the universes would need to be akin to fiction or something infinitesimal, and I don't think that only being able to fit within Another Dimension would count as that.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I read the thread from the point I left, my reasons are much the same.

If that were true, we wouldn't be back to debating the legitimacy of Jigen like we were, because your argument was that even with my correct translation, it's still not enough to prove a qualitative superiority. Something I thoroughly disproved and that you failed to respond to.

If I'm not mistaken about who wrote what, then it's confirmed that Another Dimension is transcendent compared to time in the mathematical dimension sense, but this is so close yet so far from what this thread is trying to achieve. We don't know that it infinitely transcends time,

Let me stop you right there man. This argumemt has been made before. If TheNinthHour's translation is correct and AD is superior to the dimensionality of space and time, it is qualitatively superior to space-time by definition. I went over this is great detail in my previous posts several times. Read to red text to get the most important part.

As mentioned before, we have a usable transcendence statement, but we need proof of qualitative superiority to go along with it.

So you do agree that AD is at least 4D. (By your logic, this is what it would be if the visual evidence of qualitative superiority makes unillegible for 5D.)

The discussion about the orbs has only to do with opinion.

An opinion that Effi supports as the most likely intetpretation in his cosmology blog, so that page is getting edited no matter what.

Yes, that is true.

You've already done so much, but can you please contact other translators to confirm or deny TheNithHour's translation of Jigen? No one has countered the arguments I wrote in red text, so if it is accurate, the upgrade is legitimate beyond any doubt. If it isn't an accurate translation, AD is still superior to space-time, just not by a qualitative degree, which would officially make it 4D (without upgrading the cosmology in the tiering system).
Either way, we can finally put this to rest, so if we have a deal here you won't have to see my persistant ass ever again.

 

[Antvasima]

No. I apologise for being blunt due to being very tired and stressed out, but if our staff have not accepted your arguments yet, they extremely likely never will.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Let me stop you right there man. This argumemt has been made before. If TheNinthHour's translation is correct and AD is superior to the dimensionality of space and time, it is qualitatively superior to space-time by definition. I went over this is great detail in my previous posts several times. Read to red text to get the most important part.

Are you referring to post number 678? The red text there assumes that who has the burden of proof switched, because the statements about Another Dimension's transcendence were confirmed to be in the mathematical dimension sense, even though we don't know that the 5D of Kirby's series is the same as the 5D of the VS Battles Wiki.

Back to my comparison example, instead of using official material, I'll use a hypothetical situation. Imagine that a godly character is stated to be "beyond planets". This could mean many things, like that there is no one on any planet that could best their chess skills, rather than that the character can destroy planets easily. However, fans checked the original Japanese statement, and saw that it was more specific. It was stated that the character can destroy planets. So, some people on the VS Battles Wiki would feel like they achieved something great and be quick to attempt to upgrade the character to planet level, but that would be a questionable revision. The character may have been confirmed to be a planet destroyer, but for all we know, the character's destruction could be hax over a long period of time to destroy planets that aren't big enough to qualify for planet level to the standards of the VS Battles Wiki. Then, in a sequel, the godly character is outright stated to be "planet level", but assuming that it means the exact same thing as the VS Battles Wiki would be an assumption, as it could've been to the standards of the fictional work's own new power measurement system.

You probably consider the previous paragraph correct, because understanding the validity of statements related to planetary destruction is far easier and common than trying to determine a fictional world's dimensionality. Back to Kirby's series; please use this kind of logic when analyzing how big Another Dimension might be, and you'll see that the evidence for it being 5D isn't as definite as you think. The comparison example isn't exactly like this situation, but it's still accurate enough to be good guidance about how to properly use the Tiering System in this situation.

An opinion that Effi supports as the most likely intetpretation in his cosmology blog, so that page is getting edited no matter what.

In the Kirby Cosmology blog post by Eficiente, he refers to them as alternate version of planets as evidence for Another Dimension being a multiverse. "While going through space in the "Another Dimension" level in Return to Dream Land, it can be seen illusory places related to the planets Popstar and Halcandra in the background over and over again, in those places Kirby & co. just so happen to have previously traveled to Another Dimension via dimensional rifts. It could be that Kirby & co. are in fact passing by Popstar and Halcandra many times, those being alternative versions of those planets." I think what he means is that the heroes riding Landia were traveling through Another Dimension to different universes (probably as a subtle implication), and they saw parallel versions of planets they had previously been to in a previous universe, not that those visuals were the universes themselves. In this thread, I have seen those visuals be called timelines or universes, so it's not the same was what the blog post states. I think that even Eficiente's more grounded interpretation is a stretch, but at least it was among many other points that have better evidence.

 

[CloverDragon03]

even though we don't know that the 5D of Kirby's series is the same as the 5D of the VS Battles Wiki.

I just wanna talk about this real quick: if something's 5-D, it's 5-D and that's all there is to it. The hurdle is proving that Another Dimension's superiority to 4-D structures is qualitative, making it 5-D

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is true.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I just wanna talk about this real quick: if something's 5-D, it's 5-D and that's all there is to it. The hurdle is proving that Another Dimension's superiority to 4-D structures is qualitative, making it 5-D

What does this add to the discussion? I never denied that Another Dimension could totally be some sort of 5D that doesn't qualify for tier 1, and is instead an extent in tier 2. That's what I meant by writing that we don't know that the 5D of Kirby's series is the same as the 5D of the VS Battles Wiki. It's not possible to get over the proof hurdle you mentioned for the reasons I previously explained.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

What does this add to the discussion? I never denied that Another Dimension could totally be some sort of 5D that doesn't qualify for tier 1, and is instead an extent in tier 2. That's what I meant by writing that we don't know that the 5D of Kirby's series is the same as the 5D of the VS Battles Wiki. It's not possible to get over the proof hurdle you mentioned for the reasons I previously explained.

I think you misread or misunderstood CloverDragon's comment.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What does this add to the discussion? I never denied that Another Dimension could totally be some sort of 5D that doesn't qualify for tier 1, and is instead an extent in tier 2. That's what I meant by writing that we don't know that the 5D of Kirby's series is the same as the 5D of the VS Battles Wiki. It's not possible to get over the proof hurdle you mentioned for the reasons I previously explained.

You misunderstood. If it’s 5-D, it’s undoubtedly Tier 1. Those two are a package deal. There is no such thing as being 5-D and not being Tier 1, otherwise that would go against our Tiering System as a whole. The question is just: Is it 5-D or is it just unquantifiably above 4-D?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

You misunderstood. If it’s 5-D, it’s undoubtedly Tier 1. Those two are a package deal. There is no such thing as being 5-D and not being Tier 1, otherwise that would go against our Tiering System as a whole. The question is just: Is it 5-D or is it unquantifiably above 4-D?

So to this logic, there's no such thing as a character having infinite power without being tier High 3-A, so the low-end interpretation of Kirby's power that is tier 4-A/3-C should be upgraded to tier High 3-A? (It was a rhetorical question.) That's not right, and the same should apply to higher dimensions. I've seen Popeye the sailor defeat an enemy "from the seventh dimension" who clearly doesn't qualify as tier 1, hence why he's not tier 1 on the VS Battles Wiki. There's no reason for us to assume that fictional works write science to be exactly like how the VS Battles Wiki treats science. I've seen people on YouTube who genuinely believe that Popeye's power is 7D, and that's because they have what I like to call something like "VS debater mentality", where they observe fictional works with the mindset of how the VS Battles Wiki treats terminology because of how immersed they are in this culture, without acknowledging the fact that fictional works can use terminology in their own ways. The reason it's uncommon for VS Battles Wiki veterans to propose tier High 3-A upgrades based only on statements of infinite power is because of how common statements like that are, to the point where we hammer the fact that it's not tier High 3-A into everyone. This topic of tier 1 is far less common, and more debatable, so that's why content revision threads like this exist even though the people who made it wouldn't attempt to use infinite power statements as evidence for tier High 3-A.

The previous paragraph is why I misunderstood what you meant. It makes more sense to me for Another Dimension to be some sort of 5D that doesn't qualify for tier 1 on the VS Battles Wiki, because it uses Kirby's series' own different way of treating these scientific terminologies.

Playing along with the false dilemma, the correct option would be that Another Dimension is unquantifiably above 4D, for the reason I wrote before about how Kirby's series has nothing big enough to compare Another Dimension to so we could confirm that Another Dimension is 5D.

 

[Bobsican]

You misunderstood. If it’s 5-D, it’s undoubtedly Tier 1. Those two are a package deal. There is no such thing as being 5-D and not being Tier 1, otherwise that would go against our Tiering System as a whole. The question is just: Is it 5-D or is it just unquantifiably above 4-D?

5-D without being tier 1 is possible, it's the whole reason we don't just give tier 1 to a character by being stated to be 5-D.

Every single axis has to be infinite for it to be qualitatively 5-D for our purposes (aka, tier 1).

That said, I'm not too involved on this thread nor know the proper semantics at hand, so I'm just clarifying this bit.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So to this logic, there's no such thing as a character having infinite power without being tier High 3-A, so the low-end interpretation of Kirby's power that is tier 4-A/3-C should be upgraded to tier High 3-A? (It was a rhetorical question.) That's not right, and the same should apply to higher dimensions. I've seen Popeye the sailor defeat an enemy "from the seventh dimension" who clearly doesn't qualify as tier 1, hence why he's not tier 1 on the VS Battles Wiki. There's no reason for us to assume that fictional works write science to be exactly like how the VS Battles Wiki treats science. I've seen people on YouTube who genuinely believe that Popeye's power is 7D, and that's because they have what I like to call something like "VS debater mentality", where they observe fictional works with the mindset of how the VS Battles Wiki treats terminology because of how immersed they are in this culture, without acknowledging the fact that fictional works can use terminology in their own ways. The reason it's uncommon for VS Battles Wiki veterans to propose tier High 3-A upgrades based only on statements of infinite power is because of how common statements like that are, to the point where we hammer the fact that it's not tier High 3-A into everyone. This topic of tier 1 is far less common, and more debatable, so that's why content revision threads like this exist even though the people who made it wouldn't attempt to use infinite power statements as evidence for tier High 3-A.

These are very faulty examples. Because in these cases:

• The characters deemed to not be High 3-A were deemed that way because their statements of infinite power were agreed to be hyperbolic, thus they don't actually have infinite power (I gave you a rhetorical answer )
• Being from the 7th dimension =/= Actually being 7-D, those are different things, and that's what VSBW determined

But I'll stop here because at the end of the day... this is kinda arguing semantics

The previous paragraph is why I misunderstood what you meant. It makes more sense to me for Another Dimension to be some sort of 5D that doesn't qualify for tier 1 on the VS Battles Wiki, because it uses Kirby's series' own different way of treating these scientific terminologies.

I can kinda understand where you're coming from, I think I'm just kinda going strictly off of what VSBW is saying

Playing along with the false dilemma, the correct option would be that Another Dimension is unquantifiably above 4D, for the reason I wrote before about how Kirby's series has nothing big enough to compare Another Dimension to so we could confirm that Another Dimension is 5D.

Ain't a false dilemma but sure I guess

My stance is still that since Another Dimension not only contains numerous 4-D structures within it but also displays them as nothing more than fading projections, that indicates such a trivialization as to indicate qualitative superiority. Thus, my stance remains unchanged