Kingdom Hearts Series: The Tier 2 stuff

[Bobsican]

As we can see here, the Sleeping Worlds, unlike the "normal" worlds, they are far more separate, as they appear to be in a sort of time loop, meaning that each Sleeping World has its own time axis, especially considering this happened.

"realm"; this means that worlds aren´t "literally" worlds, but actually universes arguably.

And Xehanort is more than aware of the Sleeping Worlds.

There´s also how it´s stated that there´s a "countless" number of worlds, and considering the number of stars that can be seen in some places, this means that instead of 2-C, the stuff goes straight in 2-B

For those that weren´t in the past threads (Or want a clarification):

"Why tier 2 to begin with? There being multiple universes isn´t enought"

Well:

"True Kingdom Hearts and the true x-Blade are "At least 3-A, likely 2-C" (Either 2-C or 2-B) via Xehanort´s statements regarding its power (he wanted to rewrite the universe), but the cosmology of the verse, the constant dimensional travel, his act of merging his past selves into himself and most notably Kingdom Hearts explicitly being stated to contain alll existances of the KH multiverse according to the Ultimania Entry, it easily points out to the before-mentioned rating for such, and of course Xehanort scaling while wielding it.(subject to change via debate, then again)

Sora, Donald and Goofy scale via being able to keep up with him while wielding those two at once against them while being enhanced by the "Power of Friendship", which is an actual force.

And by extension, Riku, King Mickey, Kairi, Axel/Lea, Aqua, Ventus, Terra, Roxas, Xio, Xemnas, Ansem, Young Xehanort, Vanitas, Terranort, Saïx, Xigbar, Marluxia, Larxene, Luxord, Meow Wow (As Sora can summon him in KHIII), true Kingdom Hearts, X-Blade and Repliku (if he even has a page) scale to them as they were in the final fight involving it." - The past thread

As for Pre-KHIII stuff, well, as all "Worlds" would fit as universes if the above is accepted, this would obviously also affect pretty much the whole verse, but the exact degree of this is subject to debate.

With all that being said, tier 2 KH (2-B to be exact if everything goes as the OP says, otherwise 2-C at the very least via the Sleeping Worlds and Worlds actually shown in the games) now doesn´t seem too wankish.

Thoughts?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Wow.

Looks legit but let's see if the KH peeps agree.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, the only argument that can be bringed up is the context and the number of worlds, and even then, that argument likely would be somewhat poor, enought to easily debunk hopefully.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

> Wait... Are you trying to prove the worlds are actually... Whole realities ? That's going to affect a lot more people than just the KH3 folks.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I was expecting this to be in fun and games.

But it wasn't in fun and games.

Anyways, watching for now.

 

[Bobsican]

> Wait... Are you trying to prove the worlds are actually... Whole realities ? That's going to affect a lot more people than just the KH3 folks.

1: Yes

2: Probably TBH, but whether they are accepted as universes or not should be discussed first to avoid derailing into a bunch of topics at once.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Bob Hmm.... I see....

.. Honestly... It... Isn't all that ludicrous.... If we play Devil's Advocate I mean, the feat were Zeus created the Constellations (which is where we got High 4-C from) , then Sora beating the titans who originally stomped Zeus who casually did said feat , was considered as so weak to the extent that he wasn't anywhere near a threat to even 'Pete'... One of the weakest villains in the series who consistently gets punked.... Even by KH2 Sora and those comparable.

So... It isn't too much of a stretch that the real keybearers should be a lot stronger than that.... Also while I agree that the Sleeping Worlds are Tier 2... There also the fact Riku heavily implied worlds regularly have nature such as the Sleeping Worlds....

So... It definitely is possibe.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I agree, though I wish you had waited for me.

 

[Bobsican]

Mmm...

I think all that´s needed is at least one admin agreeing and then we can go into how this affects Pre-KHIII cast.

Someone contact Dragonmasterxyz

Edit: Just went ahead, also with Cal, Rep and CrimsonSF

Leaving this here just in case, so more staff members may be contacted

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Bob ... Before we do that (NVM you did it but we need a bit more evidence) :

@Inverted... Do you have any more evidence towards Tier 2 that wasn't mentioned prior ... Specifically about the worlds each being Tier 2. So far we have:

• The Tier 4 feat we currently scale to isn't anywhere enough of a threat to an fodder enemy during KH3 .
• Sleeping Worlds' being treated as having different axis and different time spaces.
• Riku heavily implying that the aforementioned bullet applies to worlds in general... Not just the Worlds mentioned in the Sleeping World.... Which considering his experience at going through worlds is as grand (if not grander due to technically doing it years more than Sora due to Roxas and being under Ansem the Wise who knows more about the worlds than even Mickey and Yen Seid) about as legit as it can become.

 

[Bobsican]

This may be useful

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

... Nothing really notable. LIke I expected, this is dependent on Dream Drop Distance.

 

[Bobsican]

I think the proof is good enought, considering the amount of links at the OP

(More proof would be nice as usual, however)

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Here is the response to what Joshua said about worlds having different space-times back in DDD ... Riku responded:

 

[GodTongue5280]

I'd also like to make note that Riku saying that time flows differently between "any two worlds" could and most likely does apply to all of the Worlds Riku is familiar with as well. He's speaking as though it's something he's been perfectly aware of for a long time, so it more than likely applies to all worlds and not just the worlds in the sleeping realm.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, I didn´t notice that part properly, thanks for pointing out.

 

[Bobsican]

I agree a lot, TBH

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Yeah I noticed it too Leogian.... It definitely points to it more being for every world... rather than just one within the Dream World... and due to his experience in transversing worlds this definitely shouldn't be written off as just some random statement .

Also if worlds are equal to universes when this is over ... We may need to revisit Monsters Inc World.... Because there is an explicit statement where within it contains a world for every child ever born ... Also even in Unchained X they refer to being countless worlds as well... So it's pretty consistent.

 

[Bobsican]

We may need to revisit Monsters Inc World.... Because there is an explicit statement where within it contains a world for every child ever born

Wait, really?

Outside the part where Vanitas is tossed to Arendelle, San Franstokyo, etc.?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Yep... So worlds within worlds baby.

"when you realize Kairi still hasn't been upgraded to anything"

OOF

 

[GodTongue5280]

Since it's relevant to this thread I'd also like to point out the extremely blatant statement that higher dimensional clashes of power are required to forge the X-Blade. Since the X-blade was formed in KH3, it means the Seekers of Darkness and Guardians of Light were generating higher dimensional forces when they fought. In addition, the original Keyblae war was stated to have destroyed all of

the light in existence, with all of the worlds and light that currently exist having come from mere glimmers of light from the hearts of children. So it's very consistent for the characters to have these higher levels of power.

 

[Bobsican]

I can feel the pain with Meow Wow.

I mean, Sora hits very hard with him in DDD and III.

 

[GodTongue5280]

Also (I've just been waiting for this kind of thread if you can't tell), the councilwoman in Birth By Sleep is stated to rule over a universe. And the Lilo and Stich world should be seperate from all others as only keylblade wielders and those with the corridors of darkness can travel between different worlds.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I mentioned that so long ago it isn't even funny.... But when used in conjunction to the above... Yeah it's hard to argue against. And considering the fact that it isn't considered to be the biggest world and only seen as the equivalent of a normal world... We can assume the size of worlds are comparable.


Not to mention that stars could easily have different magical properties due to the setting of the verse. After all this is a fantasy setting, so their version of stars could very well be these complex realities. If it's considered to be a real star most of the stuff that happens in lore wouldn't make sense ( no star shod be inhabitable or contain what it contains... )

 

[GodTongue5280]

Terra all but confirms that all "stars" in the realm between are seperate worlds.

Which is consistent with "stars" vanishing in KH1 when Mickey refers to the worlds being destroyed by the heartless.

 

[Flashlight237]

Well, there's one way to make Sora's reliance on a Gummi ship in-game look more Plot-Induced Stupid than it already is. It would make sense for worlds to be considered alternate realities here, I mean... If Zeus already casually creates arbitrary star regions (which is what constellations basically are), why the heck not?

 

[HST_Master]

Yeah I noticed it too Leogian.... It definitely points to it more being for every world... rather than just one within the Dream World... and due to his experience in transversing worlds this definitely shouldn't be written off as just some random statement .

Also if worlds are equal to universes when this is over ... We may need to revisit Monsters Inc World.... Because there is an explicit statement where within it contains a world for every child ever bor ... Also even in Unchained X they refer to being countless worlds as well... So it's pretty consistent.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I'll have to quote it once I revisit the world.... It'll likely be sometime in the afternoon though.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I'm just going to leave more contextual support for 2-B...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/512422838045769738/516776697417170982/1FyOMe5_d.webp

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/512422838045769738/516782144828211200/image3.jpg

 

[TheSpeedster96]

This upgrade should go through. Worlds are stated to outright run on their own time axis by Riku as shown above, and other statements of countless worlds exist aswell.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I'm just going to mention this as well. One of those statements from Xehanort literally says they are separated islands that are not conjoined as an analogy. And in BBS and Kingdom Hearts II, it's literally stated, even by Yen Sid, that you cannot just cross to the worlds conventionally. You need access to the worlds through the Lanes Between and the Corridors of Darkness. To say that they aren't separate space-times would be absolutely foolish with the evidence literally showing they are separated.

So yes, they are VERY easily 2-B.

 

[MYHERO]

Tfw Kingdom Hearts becomes 2-B before Sonic.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

To be fair, Sonic has like way less stuff going for it being there than what Kingdom Hearts has going for it honestly.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I just want to also mention Tier 4 feats are literally very common throughout Kingdom Hearts and casual when they are done.

- Terranort literally creates a starry sky realm just with an attack.

- Marluxia is able to create a starry sky realm just by powering up.

- Aqua literally shaped Castle Oblivio from the Land of Departure which is 4-A for the aforementioned Marluxia feat with stars being in there.

To say that they are Tier 4 when those feats are incredibly casual would once again, be a practical joke if anything at this point.

Putting this as a tl;dr, Tier 4 feats are done causal as hell and the Tier 2 feats are far more consistent by the time of Kingdom Hearts III.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Giving this a hard maybe (translation: while this does look legit, i'd rather wait for more imput here. These revisions are huge)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I have massive Digimon revisions to worry about so I don't have the time to evaluate this. If I get any arguments from Ever, I'll post them here. Although I know one argument for this may be that this could in fact be an outlier overall seeing as it is above just about everything in the verse by an infinite degree. But, that's not my fight.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Because of the fact the stars could actually be different space times... it'd affect every supposed Tier 4 feat since KH1 (Ansems feat would become Tier 2 , same with Xemnas and several others who was affecting the Worlds or can recreate them... Which would be about 5-7 feats on this level in comparison to Zeus' Tier 4 feat which would be about 2-3... Plus the highest Tier 4 feat they currently scale to was shown in KHIII to be nowhere near a threat to the fodder of the verse) to change to this .... So it's more. Revision to cosmology so it wouldn't be an outlier if it is accepted.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Are we assuming they are universes simply due to a separate time axis or passage of time? Can you bullet point why they are universes?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hmm... Before I supply the evidence, I mean Dream Drop stated both about the worlds, but which is more likely to prove that they are separate universes ? They do abundantly talking about them having different flow of time to each other.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I don't think having a different equals a different universe. iirc planets have different passages of time to each other.