Kingdom Hearts: Re:Minder of the Concepts

[Xehanort1307]

Yeah, manipulating KH(which is the concept of light amd predates the Realm of Light) should be conceptual manipulation

Also the X-Blade would have manipulate not just the concept of light but also the concept of darkness

The Guardian should scale to this since they wre capable of holding back KH with their keyblade and they also sealed one side of KH

 

[Bobsican]

Thread is hard to read, links are slapped everywhere. But I'll look I guess, because like Sera said it can be a pretty big buff depending on if it's accepted.

Sorry, I had to show all the proof I could think of in some way without having to straight up just paste "https://..." and so on over 4 times each paragraph.

 

[Bobsican]

I think I should also point that Heartless and Keyblade Wielders can affect the "heart" of each World in the series, which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think I should also point that Heartless and Keyblade Wielders can affect the "heart" of each World in the series, which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world.

I knew that worlds have hearts but the heart of a world is every single heart from that world into a single large one? Could you tell me where you have that from?

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Just posting this again since nobody answered.

Well, I'd like my question to be answered. The rest is dependent on the revisions for non-universal concepts.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What is the answer to my question?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I dunno if holding back KH in a power struggle really constitutes as Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[Xehanort1307]

Holding back KH is debatable but the X-Blade has 100% Conceptual Manipulation

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Holding Kingdom Hearts back means you are affecting it and affecting Kingdom Hearts should qualify as Conceptual Manipulation since you are affecting the embodiment of all hearts.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I don't know if that's how that works whatsoever. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can correct me.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars."

This is quoted from the page for Abstract Existence.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

However, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a type of power struggle correct? Thus it simply would be NPE where keyblade users can interact with a Type 1 Abstract. I also do not remember us giving those who can harm Type 1 Abstracts or things similar Conceptual Manipulation automatically. Once again, i may be mistaken.

 

[Xehanort1307]

Holding back KH is debatable but the X-Blade has 100% Conceptual Manipulation

^

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No one cares about the X-Blade as the X-Blade is set for nearly everything.

 

[Xehanort1307]

Aside from the fact that there isn't the conceptual manipulation hax, the profile of the X-Blade is fine

 

[Nehz_XZX]

However, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a type of power struggle correct? Thus it simply would be NPE where keyblade users can interact with a Type 1 Abstract. I also do not remember us giving those who can harm Type 1 Abstracts or things similar Conceptual Manipulation automatically. Once again, i may be mistaken.

I'm not exactly knowledgeable about that myself. If it actually qualifies for Non-Physical Interaction, I'm fine with it but this would have to be confirmed by someone who is knowledgeable.

 

[Xehanort1307]

I do not know if that was exactly a power struggle

The Guardian were standing still and holding their keyblade towards KH, trying to hold it back, KH did nothing up until Xehanort summoned the X-Blade in Scala, then darkness engulfed more the KH,destroying the light seals and Xehanort's replicas started to appears

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'm not exactly knowledgeable about that myself. If it actually qualifies for Non-Physical Interaction, I'm fine with it but this would have to be confirmed by someone who is knowledgeable.

Is there someone sufficiently knowledgeable I could contact for that?

 

[Elizhaa]

^^

Well, just harming them would be NPI.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with abstract entities (Type 1) directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered as non-physical Interaction, and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate concepts in other contexts.
	~ Conceptual Manipulation​

 

[Nehz_XZX]

^^

Well, just harming them would be NPI.

It wasn't harming Kingdom Hearts. They were keeping Kingdom Hearts at bay and they did that with light rays they shot using their Keyblades so they weren't interacting with it like a physical object. Would that still be Non-Physical Interaction?

 

[TriforcePower1]

By the way, why should Kingdom Hearts be the embodiment of light or whatever instead of simply being able to manipulate these concepts? Did I miss something here?

 

[Elizhaa]

Ah, it sounds like NPI if their light ray attacks were pushing back Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

By the way, why should Kingdom Hearts be the embodiment of light or whatever instead of simply being able to manipulate these concepts? Did I miss something here?

Kingdom Hearts is the embodiment of all hearts. It is described as the heart of all worlds and all instances of it's incomplete versions appearing before KHIII were conglomerations of hearts.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Ah, it sounds like NPI if their light ray attacks were pushing back Kingdom Hearts.

I don't think that they were physically pushing back Kingdom Hearts.

Watch the beginning of this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL77_10T5Ho

Nothing really indicates that they are pushing it back.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, I am not seeing anything that looks conceptual. It looks after they defeated Xehanort, Kingdom Hearts was closed since it was Xehanorts who made open it was defeated.

 

[Bobsican]

No, they had to use the X-Blade to close it, Sora even asked for help from the other Guardians of Light, which then proceeded to use their own Keyblades for this, IIRC.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

This video at 8:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMBFFH3aPw

The Guardians of Light were busy keeping Kingdom Hearts shut due to it being a bigger threat than Xehanort which should technically require affecting it. They were affecting Kingdom Hearts and they were definitely not doing so in a physical sense, therefore they should get Conceptual Manipulation and not Non-Physical Interaction for that.

This video at 12:13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vozdC4HlFs.

That video shows Sora and the others closing Kingdom Hearts after they defeated Xehanort so Kingdom Hearts didn't close automatically because of Xehanort being defeated. Unlike what Bobsican wrote though, the Guardians of Light didn't use their Keyblades in that instance.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh yeah, one of the KH experts that doesn't want to touch this thread directly also told me to point out that Heartless are entirely dependent on darkness, a concept, to regen from, which is outright type 2 AE. Pureblood are entirely made up of darkness, that should be enough for an abstract physiology. They're straight up manifestations/avatars of darkness. Emblem are shown regening from their hearts, that's literally still regen. That's leads to type 3 immortality. Emblem regen fron their hearts while Pureblood regen from darkness as their heart is apart of it now

 

[Antvasima]

Don't they have to actually embody the concept of darkness itself to qualify, not just draw power from it?

 

[Elizhaa]

Don't they have to actually embody the concept of darkness itself to qualify, not just draw power from it?

Yes.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Elizhaa

Could you give an answer to my comment further above?

 

[Bobsican]

Uhhh.. they actually do.

For example, here's some canon descriptions regarding a Pureblood species, Darkball:

"Heartless born purely out of darkness. Their movements are unpredictable, as they often make sudden moves and attacks."

"A Heartless made from the very shadows of darkness. The Darkball mostly just bobs through the air, but its random weaving and biting are a nuisance."

"Heartless hewn from the very shadows. Usually they just waft through the air, but they can be annoyingly unpredictable, bobbing around erratically or charging right at you without a moment's warning."

It's clear that power being drawn isn't even brought up, nor my previous reply suggested so respectively, but either way, Heartless being conceptual embodiments of darkness appears to be the case.

 

[TriforcePower1]

They're just made of darkness, they aren't darkness itself

 

[Elizhaa]

@Elizhaa
Could you give an answer to my comment further above?

I am neutral; if Abstract Existence (Type 1) is seen as valid for Kingdom Hearts, then I think it would be conceptual manipulation, at least for the instance.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If that is the case, can I add the Abstract Existence to Kingdom Hearts and the Conceptual Manipulation to the Keyblade and it's wielders or does that still need more input? As far as I could tell nobody was denying that Kingdom Hearts has Abstract Existence.

 

[Elizhaa]

If that is the case, can I add the Abstract Existence to Kingdom Hearts and the Conceptual Manipulation to the Keyblade and it's wielders or does that still need more input? As far as I could tell nobody was denying that Kingdom Hearts has Abstract Existence.

You need more inputs; the topic need to be accepted by ample Discussion Moderators and/or Administrators.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay, then I'll wait for more input.