Bobsican
He/Him- 21,625
- 6,271
We are here because it seems the stuff that ended up here didn't get evaluated properly, while I actually thought that it was fine because no one objected it in the second thread (I'm sorry for expecting that just adding a link to continue to the next thread would inform everyone of the next thread, especially the overworked staff). With that being said, let's begin by remaking the CRT for all the subjects.
Please be as explicit on arguments as possible and don't just use "But this never got accepted", explain why you disagree on detail and so on, this is a CRT remake after all.
The Conceptual nature of Light, Darkness and the "heart" has been compressed in this button below as it got too long to reasonably just leave here, please note that most (if not all) of the stuff below is based on this, so please focus your arguments on this section.
Show/Hide
Summary of the "Normal" physiology in KH
In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart" after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).
Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).
What could the "heart" be?
Obviously the series isn´t talking about the organ everytime they mention "heart", anyways...
The "heart" actually is a type 2 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence (I know it sounds crazy, this will be elaborated with the next paragraphs)
What supports this?
(Credit to TheSpeedster (Thread:3798741) and my old blog I did to explain this stuff) Well, as we can see in Ever´s blog, Heartless are tied to the "concept of darkness", which is also tied to the concept of light. And there´s the general agreement of Nobodies (which lack a heart) having already Nonexistent Physiology. I'´ll go ahead and first explain how "Light" and "Darkness" are the abstract concepts that make up existence, then how the "heart" is of abstract nature too:
"My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in." -Xehanort Report 8
Xehanort states again that light and darkness need each other to exist "Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin; without darkness, there is no light. The Keyblade wielders' great war over Kingdom Hearts was fought by defenders of the light, servants of darkness, those who sought to reconcile the two, and those motivated by nothing more than lust for power. A whole spectrum of thought was swept into the conflict, and the worlds that did not go to war found the war brought to them. In the end, the whole World was cast into darkness."* -Xehanort Report 4
There's also the fact that all hearts in existence make up KH, the literal embodiment of light, and there's also Mickey directly stating stuff supporting this.
And beings who don't have light/darkness at all are literally nonexistent as we all know, anything
There´s also even more regarding what TheSpeedster (Thanks you) pointed out, aka, the following:
- Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs
- Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45
- The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt
- The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s
- Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart
- Kairi's "heart" is literally referred as her essence
- Chirithy states that the hearts being destroyed makes one fade out of existence entirely
Now when we define "essence" under multiple different times, but it is most obviously not the soul. The soul and the heart are described as being two different things in their entirety, as Xemnas makes this clear yet again when he says destroying the soul would not affect Lea's heart. This is from Kingdom Hearts III base game but supports the point
If we define essence, it can have a few different interpretations between like soul and concepts.
es┬Àsence /╦êesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.
Even if you use other dictionaries, they quite closely make similar remarks on essence being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge
Given how this is, the heart's existence has already been established as being qualitatively superior to the body, the mind, and the soul.
Having heart destroyed means you, as an entirety, cease to exist as Chirithy has made clear.
This ties into the Nobodies still have Nonexistent Physiology Type 2 as well
But overall, it being called the essence of people means that it is the most important quality. Most important quality would obviously mean it's a greater value, as we had mentioned multiple times beforehand.
None of this "the heart is only 1/3 of your being" headcanons.
And given how statements of gaining hearts allow you to exist as referenced on the previous thread with Saix saying that the Organization members could become existent with them, this only conclusively shows that they are Type 2 beings.
This also supports the fact that the Conceptual Manipulation via strikes should stay because in that instance, the fact the heart is the essence of someone from Xehanort's own words and the game says it was essence being destroyed is enough to show it's literally the heart.
And before this gets brought up because I've seen it be asked "Why don't nobodies immediately vanish then if they have that?" We've already established why, they don't have hearts, meaning it wouldn't remotely affect them like that to begin with. Type 2 NEP details it.
As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")
For the Abstract part:
"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."
This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable, this is an actual mechanic in-verse) Light and darkness were accepted as being concepts as they make up all of existence by the above in Kingdom Hearts, which makes it a type 3 concept, but there is evidence that makes it a type 2 concept.
For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn't bound by the universe.
"2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."
The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before.
From this, everyone that holds a "heart" holds type 2 Abstract Existence by being reliant in a type 2 concept, among other things that will get developed in further detail below:
Nobody Type 2 NEP:
This isn't exactly an addition, but a clarification. Nobodies are a Type 2 NEP as they lack the concepts that make up existence in KH (Light and Darkness, if the main thing above gets accepted), which is what explicitly makes them non existent in the first place, with both their soul and body fading from the Realm of Light after having their heart taken. The NEP page even states that beings who are non existent on a conceptual level can qualify for it.
"2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."
Bolding "typically" because as we discussed with Cal at Discord, that's not an actual requirement for the same reason being FTL doesn't make you High 3-A by itself, verse mechanics are verse mechanics, after all, as I'm sure someone will complain of this eventually otherwise.
Mid-Godly/High-Godly Regenerationn and Regen Negation:
Heartless used to have Mid-Godly Regenerationn from being able to come back by being reliant in the concept (Darkness is a concept that makes up existence) of darkness/"heart", this is fairly straightforward as this is mostly based on the main part above on the concept stuff and some other things, here's some scans and statements as I know everyone will be in doubt:
As we can see from the above, Heartless are tied to the darkness and can come back from it, be it Pureblood or Emblem
Now, from here we can obviously tell that if this is also accepted, Keyblade Wielders get Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation as the Keyblade can negate the Heartless from coming back, which we all know is a plot point across nearly the whole series.
As for Vanitas and his High-Godly Regen, the Vanitas Remnant is fairly self-explanatory, after having his "heart" destroyed out of the clash with Ventus, Vanitas Remnant is what was left out of his emotions, think Lingering Will, but Regen, as we all know a "Heart" is needed to be able to exist, so coming back in this fashion falls as such per definition.
As Xehanort gets all powers from the true Organization XIII as he fused with them at around KHIII (Which was accepted before in another CRT), this also extends to Xehanort getting High-Godly regen.
Immortalities on Heartless and Regenerationn Negation:
Okay, we still remember Heartless having back then type 3 Immortality out of the Regenerationn, and the Keyblade negates it, so by extension the Keyblade would get the ability to also negate that type of Regenerationn, fairly straightforward as this is also something reliant on the main thing of concepts in KH and all of that.
Intangibility and interaction with Heartless by NPI:
Okay, this was accepted before IIRC, but that has to be checked too to avoid further complaints.
Heartless are known to only be able to be harmed by the Keyblade as they can't be harmed by conventional attacks (Like at KHI when Sora couldn't even harm them as his hits from his wood sword just phazed across them), by extension, only stuff that has NPI to hit abstract entities (As Keyblades destroy the "darkness") can harm them, among other things/beings.
Conceptual attacks and that stuff:
This is based on Xehanort conceptually killing Kairi with his base Keyblade, which he even states that isn't different from any other Keyblade, Chirithy even explains that when Sora bringed back the Guardians of Light he restored them after having their "hearts" being erased from existence (Also supporting Heartless having conceptual attacks, of which a good chunk of the lore points of Heartless having a lot of relationship with "hearts" anyways) While we are on that, Heartless and Keyblade WIelders can not only affect "regular" hearts of any subject, but also the "heart" of each "World", which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world on the same fashion, which is actually the entire plot of KHI as we all know.
Summary (Aka, in a nutshell):
- Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.
- Heartless get Mid-Godly Regenerationn once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regenerationn and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation
- Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)
- Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.
- Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles
- Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies
Please be as explicit on arguments as possible and don't just use "But this never got accepted", explain why you disagree on detail and so on, this is a CRT remake after all.
The Conceptual nature of Light, Darkness and the "heart" has been compressed in this button below as it got too long to reasonably just leave here, please note that most (if not all) of the stuff below is based on this, so please focus your arguments on this section.
Show/Hide
Summary of the "Normal" physiology in KH
In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart" after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).
Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).
What could the "heart" be?
Obviously the series isn´t talking about the organ everytime they mention "heart", anyways...
The "heart" actually is a type 2 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence (I know it sounds crazy, this will be elaborated with the next paragraphs)
What supports this?
(Credit to TheSpeedster (Thread:3798741) and my old blog I did to explain this stuff) Well, as we can see in Ever´s blog, Heartless are tied to the "concept of darkness", which is also tied to the concept of light. And there´s the general agreement of Nobodies (which lack a heart) having already Nonexistent Physiology. I'´ll go ahead and first explain how "Light" and "Darkness" are the abstract concepts that make up existence, then how the "heart" is of abstract nature too:
"My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in." -Xehanort Report 8
Xehanort states again that light and darkness need each other to exist "Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin; without darkness, there is no light. The Keyblade wielders' great war over Kingdom Hearts was fought by defenders of the light, servants of darkness, those who sought to reconcile the two, and those motivated by nothing more than lust for power. A whole spectrum of thought was swept into the conflict, and the worlds that did not go to war found the war brought to them. In the end, the whole World was cast into darkness."* -Xehanort Report 4
There's also the fact that all hearts in existence make up KH, the literal embodiment of light, and there's also Mickey directly stating stuff supporting this.
And beings who don't have light/darkness at all are literally nonexistent as we all know, anything
There´s also even more regarding what TheSpeedster (Thanks you) pointed out, aka, the following:
- Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs
- Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45
- The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt
- The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s
- Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart
- Extra stuff from Re:Mind:
- Kairi's "heart" is literally referred as her essence
- Chirithy states that the hearts being destroyed makes one fade out of existence entirely
Now when we define "essence" under multiple different times, but it is most obviously not the soul. The soul and the heart are described as being two different things in their entirety, as Xemnas makes this clear yet again when he says destroying the soul would not affect Lea's heart. This is from Kingdom Hearts III base game but supports the point
If we define essence, it can have a few different interpretations between like soul and concepts.
es┬Àsence /╦êesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.
Even if you use other dictionaries, they quite closely make similar remarks on essence being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge
Given how this is, the heart's existence has already been established as being qualitatively superior to the body, the mind, and the soul.
Having heart destroyed means you, as an entirety, cease to exist as Chirithy has made clear.
This ties into the Nobodies still have Nonexistent Physiology Type 2 as well
But overall, it being called the essence of people means that it is the most important quality. Most important quality would obviously mean it's a greater value, as we had mentioned multiple times beforehand.
None of this "the heart is only 1/3 of your being" headcanons.
And given how statements of gaining hearts allow you to exist as referenced on the previous thread with Saix saying that the Organization members could become existent with them, this only conclusively shows that they are Type 2 beings.
This also supports the fact that the Conceptual Manipulation via strikes should stay because in that instance, the fact the heart is the essence of someone from Xehanort's own words and the game says it was essence being destroyed is enough to show it's literally the heart.
And before this gets brought up because I've seen it be asked "Why don't nobodies immediately vanish then if they have that?" We've already established why, they don't have hearts, meaning it wouldn't remotely affect them like that to begin with. Type 2 NEP details it.
As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")
For the Abstract part:
"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."
This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable, this is an actual mechanic in-verse) Light and darkness were accepted as being concepts as they make up all of existence by the above in Kingdom Hearts, which makes it a type 3 concept, but there is evidence that makes it a type 2 concept.
For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn't bound by the universe.
"2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."
The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before.
From this, everyone that holds a "heart" holds type 2 Abstract Existence by being reliant in a type 2 concept, among other things that will get developed in further detail below:
Nobody Type 2 NEP:
This isn't exactly an addition, but a clarification. Nobodies are a Type 2 NEP as they lack the concepts that make up existence in KH (Light and Darkness, if the main thing above gets accepted), which is what explicitly makes them non existent in the first place, with both their soul and body fading from the Realm of Light after having their heart taken. The NEP page even states that beings who are non existent on a conceptual level can qualify for it.
"2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."
Bolding "typically" because as we discussed with Cal at Discord, that's not an actual requirement for the same reason being FTL doesn't make you High 3-A by itself, verse mechanics are verse mechanics, after all, as I'm sure someone will complain of this eventually otherwise.
Mid-Godly/High-Godly Regenerationn and Regen Negation:
Heartless used to have Mid-Godly Regenerationn from being able to come back by being reliant in the concept (Darkness is a concept that makes up existence) of darkness/"heart", this is fairly straightforward as this is mostly based on the main part above on the concept stuff and some other things, here's some scans and statements as I know everyone will be in doubt:
As we can see from the above, Heartless are tied to the darkness and can come back from it, be it Pureblood or Emblem
Now, from here we can obviously tell that if this is also accepted, Keyblade Wielders get Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation as the Keyblade can negate the Heartless from coming back, which we all know is a plot point across nearly the whole series.
As for Vanitas and his High-Godly Regen, the Vanitas Remnant is fairly self-explanatory, after having his "heart" destroyed out of the clash with Ventus, Vanitas Remnant is what was left out of his emotions, think Lingering Will, but Regen, as we all know a "Heart" is needed to be able to exist, so coming back in this fashion falls as such per definition.
As Xehanort gets all powers from the true Organization XIII as he fused with them at around KHIII (Which was accepted before in another CRT), this also extends to Xehanort getting High-Godly regen.
Immortalities on Heartless and Regenerationn Negation:
Okay, we still remember Heartless having back then type 3 Immortality out of the Regenerationn, and the Keyblade negates it, so by extension the Keyblade would get the ability to also negate that type of Regenerationn, fairly straightforward as this is also something reliant on the main thing of concepts in KH and all of that.
Intangibility and interaction with Heartless by NPI:
Okay, this was accepted before IIRC, but that has to be checked too to avoid further complaints.
Heartless are known to only be able to be harmed by the Keyblade as they can't be harmed by conventional attacks (Like at KHI when Sora couldn't even harm them as his hits from his wood sword just phazed across them), by extension, only stuff that has NPI to hit abstract entities (As Keyblades destroy the "darkness") can harm them, among other things/beings.
Conceptual attacks and that stuff:
This is based on Xehanort conceptually killing Kairi with his base Keyblade, which he even states that isn't different from any other Keyblade, Chirithy even explains that when Sora bringed back the Guardians of Light he restored them after having their "hearts" being erased from existence (Also supporting Heartless having conceptual attacks, of which a good chunk of the lore points of Heartless having a lot of relationship with "hearts" anyways) While we are on that, Heartless and Keyblade WIelders can not only affect "regular" hearts of any subject, but also the "heart" of each "World", which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world on the same fashion, which is actually the entire plot of KHI as we all know.
Summary (Aka, in a nutshell):
- Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.
- Heartless get Mid-Godly Regenerationn once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regenerationn and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation
- Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)
- Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.
- Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles
- Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies
