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Kingdom Hearts Miscellaneous CRT

Antvasima said:
Thank you.

@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @SamanPatou @Nehz_XZX

Can you help us out by evaluating the following two posts please?


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Well, there's this, I suppose, as you may remember.

Thing is that it has been shifting from one side to the other constantly, and in fact everything was going smoothly until Glassman stepped in to perform ad nauseam for weeks on the thread against stuff he disagreed with, and while the staff has an higher say on the matter at all, at the same time they aren't always necessarily right, especially with the presented arguments so far.

In any case, it'd be fair to let other staff evaluate, it provides more non-biased insight, while also ensuring accuracy, especially when only about 3 staff members have voiced their thoughts on the matter (and have shifted from one side of agreement to the other as said before), so it's not like a considerable amount of staff is unlikely to override that number, especially if some of the current ones change their mind, and the current evaluations on the matter do seem rather shaky in either side if anything.
 
and in fact everything was going smoothly until Glassman stepped in to perform ad nauseam for weeks on the thread against stuff he disagreed with
Click to expand...

Says the guy who went to MY message wall and told me to discuss about the new upgrades in this thread. You have no one to blame but yourself on this one. Also I said I'm not responding since you clearly don't understand what "waiting for staff input" means at this point. If it goes through, great, if not whatever, not the end of the world.
 
Well, that's because I wanted to ask you for something else and thought it'd be best to let you voice your thoughts for the sake of transparency as you also told me you had some disagreements, now whether their reasoning was good is literally the debate right now.
 
Bobsican said:
Now whether their reasoning was good is literally the debate right now.
Click to expand...
I mean, your whole argument is "sora can fight back and change the predetermined destiny/fate/outcome so he definitely has acausality type 4!!1!1!!"

Which is the weakest ass reasoning for type 4

So if we are talking about good reasoning then... Yeah...
 
There's an awful lot of persistence in here, lol. Glassman's point seems fair enough to me, and there's no honest reason to keep this going.

Ant's right. Not every CRT is going to go exactly how someone wants it to.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
I mean, your whole argument is "sora can fight back and change the predetermined destiny/fate/outcome so he definitely has acausality type 4!!1!1!!"

Which is the weakest ass reasoning for type 4

So if we are talking about good reasoning then... Yeah...
Click to expand...
Weakest reasoning or not, nobody has actually refuted this being the standard VSBW goes by, no one has actually defined what "standard causality" is for the purposes of evaluation, and more importantly, nobody has actually debunked why what Sora did would not be a form of acausality If you have no reasoning beyond what you typed, please don't contribute to the thread and just follow it if you want, your comment didn't really add anything to the arguments for either side.
 
Bobsican said:
Weakest reasoning or not, nobody has actually refuted this being the standard VSBW goes by, no one has actually defined what "standard causality" is for the purposes of evaluation, and more importantly, nobody has actually debunked why what Sora did would not be a form of acausality If you have no reasoning beyond what you typed, please don't contribute to the thread and just follow it if you want, your comment didn't really add anything to the arguments for either side.
Click to expand...
I already did, glass already did.

The acausality page makes it clear this is an irregular existence to cause and effect or something to a similar degree, you only have 1 ability that makes you go against predestined fate and change it, that's not acausality that's both fate manip and resistance to it.
 
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Antvasima said:
Can you help us out by evaluating the following two posts please? Bobsican seemingly won't ever relent here unless we receive further staff evaluations.
Click to expand...
I'll comment but I have virtually no knowledge on KH
Theglassman12 said:
Nothing about your example on Irregular is remotely comparable to the Power of Waking. Nothing about the Power of waking implies that Sora can function on a different cause and effect, and the former is literally a state of being as it's his nature to do it. Not a random ability that just resets whatever happened in the events. It is his actual nature because one of the scans in the OP literally refers to him as a different existence. So if you're going to bring up that CRT maybe pay attention to the scans that's used because they actually have scans that imply a different state of being. Congratulations on taking 2 out of 3 of those examples you have out of context because neither of them have any comparisons with Sora using an ability to get out of a situation. Both of them are just their existences being different than others, hence their type 4 reasoning, and the other is just flat out wrong.
Click to expand...
If this comment is correct then yeah, it would just be Fate Manipulation rather than Acasual.
 
Thank you for the reply. It seems like Elizhaa and Qawsedf234 agree with Theglassman12 here then. Case closed I suppose.
 
Well, Qawsed appears to be rather unsure, and his claim relies on assuming what was quoted is indeed the case, which is a fair thing to do given the lengthy discussion on the matter, but that was also up to debate, and so I wonder if his stance of the matter has considered the rest of the discussion from that point, just in case I'll quote the posts that went around after that, I'd recommend to open the links to each post as quotes within quotes aren't supported here.
Bobsican said:
Okay, given Elizhaa appears to have the same thoughts as Glassman, may as well debunk this stuff


Concession accepted and moving on, you are choosing to ignore the most basic points that I proposed to you and are now being willingly ignorant in your judgment. You're repeating the same points again and did not address once more why Enryu is considered an irregular (hint, it's kinda important to the argument) and just cycled back to the same circular argumentation that I called in the previous post.

Now you are accusing me of taking it out of context? May I ask how? You can't just say they are "different" without first explaining why they are objectively different. Enryu's "irregular" nature is solely cause he can overturn fate and predestination just by existing. It's not anything more complicated than that and it's certainly not what you are stated.

It absolutely is different standards and you know it. I've bothered asked you countless times to define what "standard causality" is in the context of this site and you refused to do so. That's a concession because your whole argument hinges on Sora being bound by "standard causality" and you haven't actually outlined what that is and why Sora is still bound to it.

You are wasting everyone’s time but just ignoring points and going on irrelevant tangents that doesn't pertain to the relevant conditions I outlined for you (a blatant "moving the goalposts" fallacy).

And BTW, just saying my argument is "out of context" is irrelevant for its validity when you can't actually explain how that's the case and why that's the case. You are repeating points and have no real refutations other than non-arguments at this point. This is getting tiresome and it's on the border of ad nauseam.

Yeah, Sora is going to be considered limited but that's only because it's not his inherent nature but because it's more or less a passive force that gives him that nature. This is still applicable for not only Acausality but Type 4 per reasons highlighted countless times already, why else do you think I used Goku Black as an example?

Please do everyone a favor and actually read the arguments presented over presuming what my argumentation is.
The reason why N.E.O was brought up in the first place is because you are acting as if a state of being or anything that would normally be inherent can't under any circumstances be applicable for what it is.

Your logic dedicates if something isn't natural, then it can't be applicable (ignoring all the times a character on site is giving something through abilities, items or what not... Basically anything that isn't an inherent ability they have).

If you are gonna call a non sequitur, then fully read and understand my points, otherwise it makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. Not saying it's the same as Sora's case but it's to highlight another problem that I have with your arguments, which is the "not inherent = not applicable" premise you keep propagating with no basis at all, which easily sets a bad precedent on the site.

It's not blood, it's something similar to such but not exactly. It's literally just a power source that emanates from the gods and is considered the equivalent. Also, blood isn't one's existence either If someone is acausality or nonexistence, not all aspects of them is going to be such unless it's specified otherwise.
That's why we separated the latter into different aspects to begin with, which makes you look as if you didn't even bother researching and are doing claims for the sake of it.

Yeah, I don't think these arguments are remotely valid, ton of fallacies and misconceptions are rampant even based on how the site rates the power with tons of precedents that have even been brought up, Sora isn't even the first case of situational acausality as outlined before.
Click to expand...
Theglassman12 said:
Hey Bob, when we agree to let the staff finally decide, that doesn't mean constantly argue more. Last time we're doing this back and forth, and drop the topic and let the staff decide, if it gets accepted, cool, if not whatever, it's not the end of the world.

Not a concession if I never admitted to being wrong in my points against you. You keep saying why he's an irregular but you never once remotely explain how in any way is this important. If you're going to be so ignorant as to ignore my point that these character's mere existence causes this then you're not tackling my point, so you're conceding to my arguments if you're not going to tackle the actual difference between the two and explain how it's the same thing.

Never has been and never will be. If it was different standards then so many other franchises I support would have type 4 for the same vague statements as before. The fact you have to ask me how standard causality is just proves how hard you're reaching. The fact that Sora was literally a part of the book of prophecy and was ****** over by the darkness had Kairi not tried to save him shoots your argument in the foot that he functions in a different cause and effect system. If he functions on a different cause and effect system then he wouldn't have been caught in the prophecy and reset the events to prevent it from happening. It doesn't matter if the book of prophecy doesn't have fate hax or not. The fact he specifically uses the ability to stop something that was predestined to happen means he's changing his own fate, which just grants him either fate manipulation or unconventional resistance by just ignoring it. I can say the same thing about you claiming it's only different standards without bringing up more examples than Simon, if he's the only one you can bring up with shit like this then you're not going to get anywhere here, especially when Type 4 just doesn't apply to Simon anymore.

Because it stays that way for goku black and has actual Acausal capabilities with the time ring, Sora's power of waking doesn't grant acausality when the kid was affected by what happened in the prophecies and needed kairi to save him.

Stop coloring your text, you make it very hard to read when your text blends with the background. Also no this is a non sequiter because nothing about N.E.O absorbing another being and becoming one with them is the same as Sora using an ability, if you're not going to explain how this is the same thing then your argument has no ground. Actually try to give an in depth explanation instead of just saying "look at this, it has this and it's accepted" without doing any comparison to how this connects to Sora.

Your link literally explains Ichor being the blood of the gods. Nothing about this link remotely explains it being different when it's literally god blood. For someone who claims I'm not doing any research you sure are doing the same thing for trying to use Saint Seiya as an example.

This is the last time I'm going to respond to this discussion, let the staff members handle it and close this thread when the accepted stuff has been added.
Click to expand...
Bobsican said:
Sure, while not everything is necessarily going to be accepted and all, beyond that that's not how the site works, the intent of a CRT is to aim for accuracy, which can be argued from the current status quo, especially with how the matter in terms of acceptance has been shifting across three staff members from one side to the other, so it's far from definitive as things currently stand

It might as well be a concession since you have repeated the same points with basically little to no variation on top of repeatedly ignoring the one thing I asked, which was defining "standard causality". It was asked of you because it's important to determining whether Sora is bound to it or not, which you didn't answer and thus I have to take that as you can't reply.

BTW, I didn't ignore anything, I gave you examples that debunk what you said and thoroughly explained why your premise wouldn't work under the site's own standards. I don't need to focus on whether it's "inherent" or not because I explained why acausality and other state of being abilities can be gained through other means, meanwhile your points rely on "standard causality", something you didn't even bother to define or explain how Sora is bound to

The bottom line is that I've explained my points and refuted your premises, on the other hand, you haven't even defined the basic thing you are arguing, which is "standard causality" and you failed to elaborate on how Sora is bound to it, and so by extension you're indirectly conceding you can't, thus debunking this poor argument, Acausality doesn't require direct mentions of causality to qualify for it to say the least.

You are trying to say Sora is bound to "standard causality", yet don't even bother defining it like I've bothered requesting for the sake of you having an argument to begin with. The closest thing of my requests that was fulfilled was explaining how Sora is "bound" to standard causality, even so, your example ignores the refutation I already gave you already covers that.

States of being can be gained and this extends to Acausality, alongside the fact that we have several profiles that show overturning predestined outcomes and defying fate is prerequisite for Acausality Type 4. You have yet to actually explain how it isn't or explain why this isn't a standard that this site evidently has based on the consistently accepted CRTs

Oh and BTW, this doesn't debunk it either. The book literally records fate and destiny within the timeline, meanwhile the Power of Waking caused two contradictory histories in the same, singularly timeline. It not only overturned a predestined outcome, defied fate but also shows that it isn't bound by the linear timeline and was able to generate two outcomes that contradict one another despite there being only one timeline.

This is Type 4 or at the very least, a type of Acausality no matter how you look at it. You didn't even bring up why Simon's is wrong beyond "figure of speech", which doesn't refute the fact it is considered Type 4 Acausality to begin with, which further proves my point about the standards, which you have been ignoring the entire debate up until now. You'd do a favor to everyone if you bothered actually reading the points given, as opposed to assuming what they were and worsening your own reputation.

Didn't explain how Sora is bound to regular causality but okay, I'll take the hint on your part, you have no legitimate argument and are functioning on ad nauseam.

I already explained why it would be Type 4 by the site's standards, I explained why it's Acausality to begin with and I did all sorts of stuff over the course of this debate. Meanwhile you didn't even define the premise in which you are arguing here, which automatically is a bad sign to the fact you aren't arguing in any reasonable form of good faith or curiosity.


Fine, I'll just use bolding.

Anyways, let's define a Non-Sequitur then:



Except my premise was that states of being can be obtained through other means and you are trying to imply that Sora not having Acausality naturally is a point against him when that's just objectively wrong by the standards of the site itself. N.E.O is used as an example among others because it shows you can gain a state of being through other means, which BTW, you can't normally do for obvious reasons. Me absorbing flames doesn't mean I become fire and so on, so just saying "N.E.O absorbed Barbamon explains this" isn't a handwave argument against this, doesn't explain how, by your own premise, that's possible.

In fact, when I argued Enryu had the same thing as the Power of Waking, this was one of your replies:



And so I'd appreciate if you'd please just admit you are shifting the goalposts or quit compromising everyone's time by being difficult for no real reason.







"Blood" is just a figurative, it's actually shown to be something more like a sort of golden energy and not literal blood. So no, it's not a part of the Gods' beings, and even if it was, not all aspects of someone are going to be of a same nature. Just because I'm nonexistent, doesn't mean my mind and soul are, which is why nonexistence physiology was separated into aspects as I pointed out many times at this point, for instance.


Sure, if you lack the time/will to evaluate in good faith we're forced to just rely on other staff, you're still more than welcome to do a CRT to change this if you go back into the topic way after it was applied (if it gets accepted), but I'd still appreciate some more legitimate arguments that don't lean into double standards and fallacies
Click to expand...

Also...
Tony_di_bugalu said:
I already did, glass already did.

The acausality page makes it clear this is an irregular existence to cause and effect or something to a similar degree, you only have 1 ability that makes you go against predestined fate and change it, that's not acausality that's both fate manip and resistance to it.
Click to expand...
You are making an assumption of what the standards are, I've proven to you that having an existence that's defies fate and overturns predestination is prerequisite for Acausality. Don't like it? Make a CRT about or it, or quit wasting my time with utter nonsense.

Glassman danced around his main premise and couldn't even explain what "standard causality" is to actually back himself up. You have nothing new to add here and are no different from a troll trying to instigate drama. I'm serious when I say that if you have nothing to add then watch the thread and to put it bluntly, you'd make a favor to everyone by being quiet.
 
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Bobsican said:
You are making an assumption of what the standards are, I've proven to you that having an existence that's defies fate and overturns predestination is prerequisite for Acausality. Don't like it? Make a CRT about or it, or quit wasting my time with utter nonsense.
Click to expand...
Acausality is the ability to act unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, on a scale that varies depending on the character.

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality.

I'm not making any assumption at all, its what the page says so you either abide by it or stop wasting everybody's time with your constant rambling and let staff decide.

Also another thing is that defying fate and changing predestined things is literally fate manip and resistance to fate manip, you need a ton more of stuff to argue for acausality.
Bobsican said:
Glassman danced around his main premise and couldn't even explain what "standard causality" is to actually back himself up. You have nothing new to add here and are no different from a troll trying to instigate drama. I'm serious when I say that if you have nothing to add then watch the thread and to put it bluntly, you'd make a favor to everyone by being quiet.
Click to expand...
Explained above.

Those are quite the accusations you are throwing my way, what in all of this makes you think I'm trying to instigate drama or trolling? If anything I have tried to be as helpful as possible but alas that's not what you want...

Now, I'm serious when I say that if you have nothing else to add besides recycling debunked arguments and needless walling then just watch the thread and make us all a favour by being quiet and letting staff decide.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Acausality is the ability to act unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, on a scale that varies depending on the character.

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality.

I'm not making any assumption at all, its what the page says so you either abide by it or stop wasting everybody's time with your constant rambling and let staff decide.

Also another thing is that defying fate and changing predestined things is literally fate manip and resistance to fate manip, you need a ton more of stuff to argue for acausality.
Click to expand...
I've already shown contrary evidence to this, please stop reiterating the same debunked and unsubstantiated points points and bother reading for once. Regardless of what the Acausality page currently says, I've already brought up plenty of examples on the contrary on this regard when talking to Glass, either debunk them or concede.

It's ironic you accuse me of "recycling" points when you're doing the exact same thing. Where did Glass actually refute this? I even pointed out that when I brought up a character whose Acausality is literally just the Power of Waking (the KH thing here), all Glass could say was "it's acausality because he's called an irregular", which uh... in other words, his only argument was that he was called an Irregular and completely ignored the nature of his power itself and why he was considered such, instead focusing only on the name.

Neither him or you have sufficiently explained why Enryu's case is objectively different from Sora's, or even Simon's example. The only argument Glass had for Simon was "flowery language", ignoring that it wuldn't matter if it was or not because the fact this line of logic (which is overturning predestination and fate = Type 4 Acausality) was accepted to begin with.

The reasons I even used Tower of God and Gurren Lagann was because they prove a consistent standard/precedent on the site, which is that overturning fate and predestination is prerequisite for Type 4 Acausality. The only one who's rambling right now is you and that's because you're adding nothing new to the thread and are just recycling the same points almost directly like a broken record.
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Those are quite the accusations you are throwing my way, what in all of this makes you think I'm trying to instigate drama or trolling? If anything I have tried to be as helpful as possible but alas that's not what you want...
Click to expand...
May you please point out when I've called you any of that? Please be more careful reading the provided points over pulling strawmans, what was said is that you're "no different from a troll trying to instigate drama", and that was in reference to the fact you are just saying things that don't contribute to the thread itself and are overall irrelevant to the conversation.

Like, what did your comment add? It doesn't server any purpose beyond a glorified "your points are bad". This in itself is textbook instigation and if that wasn't your intent, then you need to focus on expressing yourself properly.
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Now, I'm serious when I say that if you have nothing else to add besides recycling debunked arguments and needless walling then just watch the thread and make us all a favour by being quiet and letting staff decide.
Click to expand...
You never had an argument to begin with, you couldn't even define your own premise, so how can you claim to have debunked my points when you haven't even made a stance on the matter yourself by defining "standard causality", or even explaining how Sora would be bound to it?
 
Antvasima said:
but since Bobsican has usually been a productive member
Click to expand...
I don't think just disagreeing with someone else and feeling its incorrect to not apply a power is stonewalling or anything.

People can disagree with something and get outvoted while still having reasonable arguments.
Bobsican said:
I've proven to you that having an existence that's defies fate and overturns predestination is prerequisite for Acausality
Click to expand...
Well, not really. Acausal "just" means that the character in question wouldn't be effected by a change in the timestream in some capacity. Either by killing them in the past or only ever existing at one point in time so stuff like precognition doesn't work on them. Fate is also different from Cause/Effect as its more about what happens eventually rather than what is happening now.

Antvasima said:
evaluate the following post before he is satisfied here
Click to expand...
From the chain its mostly dealing with 3rd part franchises. Simon or idk, Thanatos being Acasual has no real barring on Sora being Acasual. If the stuff is wrong for them and is also wrong for Sora, it just means that they shouldn't be Acasual either.

For the thread I'm seeing the linked video being that they were being foretold to lose but Sora broke fate and made them not lose. Originally I said it was Acasual because I was under the impression that the book had some link to Case and Effect, which is why I thought that by breaking it he was Acasual. Since he was directly countering Cause.

But if its just a prophecy thing I don't see why it wouldn't just be Fate Manipulation or something.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I don't think just disagreeing with someone else and feeling its incorrect to not apply a power is stonewalling or anything.

People can disagree with something and get outvoted while still having reasonable arguments.

Well, not really. Acausal "just" means that the character in question wouldn't be effected by a change in the timestream in some capacity. Either by killing them in the past or only ever existing at one point in time so stuff like precognition doesn't work on them. Fate is also different from Cause/Effect as its more about what happens eventually rather than what is happening now.


From the chain its mostly dealing with 3rd part franchises. Simon or idk, Thanatos being Acasual has no real barring on Sora being Acasual. If the stuff is wrong for them and is also wrong for Sora, it just means that they shouldn't be Acasual either.

For the thread I'm seeing the linked video being that they were being foretold to lose but Sora broke fate and made them not lose. Originally I said it was Acasual because I was under the impression that the book had some link to Case and Effect, which is why I thought that by breaking it he was Acasual. Since he was directly countering Cause.

But if its just a prophecy thing I don't see why it wouldn't just be Fate Manipulation or something.
Click to expand...
There is also this though. He caused two contradictory histories in one timeline. Doesn't that count?
The book literally records fate and destiny within the timeline, meanwhile the Power of Waking caused two contradictory histories in the same, singularly timeline. It not only overturned a predestined outcome, defied fate but also shows that it isn't bound by the linear timeline and was able to generate two outcomes that contradict one another despite there being only one timeline.
 
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It's something Sora activates, so it's not passive. I've already conceded it'd be a limited form of acausality out of this.
Of note is that I've already elaborated on there being plenty of precedent on the site on this sort of powers not requiring to be an inherent passive aspect of the user to fall as such.
 
Bobsican said:
It's something Sora activates, so it's not passive. I've already conceded it'd be a limited form of acausality out of this.
Of note is that I've already elaborated on there being plenty of precedent on the site on this sort of powers not requiring to be an inherent passive aspect of the user to fall as such.
Click to expand...
but does that mean there is still a history where sora lost? Also how much time does he take to activate it, is it instanteneous?
 
Going by the source on there being two coexisting contradictory histories in the same timeline, I'd say so.

Kind of, it's basically a verse mechanic that suddendly triggers this after a rather specific misuse of the Power of Waking (which took a few minutes, to answer your other question) because yes.

Kingdom Hearts 3 Ultimania - Scenario Mysteries Interview Translated - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

Kingdom Hearts Insider - the largest kingdom hearts community and news resource on the web!
www.khinsider.com www.khinsider.com
—When we leave the Final World, we are back to the point just before Sora and his friends were defeated. Why is that?

Nomura: The power of awakening is essentially "the power to put sleeping hearts back the way they were." But the impact of forcing his friends' fading hearts back the way they were rewrote reality, and created a singularity. The rewrite caused the chronology in which they were destroyed to have "never happened."
Click to expand...

The quotation marks at the end imply that part is not exactly the case, which is accurate as the in-game statement (which was added later on as DLC, as even highlighted in-game), and so yeah, the timeline of defeat still "exists", although it's no longer relevant to the current chain of events out of the rewrite taking more priority, which is knowledged to be a contradiction in itself too.

In practice this power wouldn't really be combat applicable as no one but Sora would use it like that in character, and even so it requires rather specific circumstances, so it's more of a technicality for the sake of accurate indexing.
 
Not necessarily as there's already precedent on acausality being granted without the power in question being an inherent attribute of the user, or even passive, as highlighted in the before-mentioned examples.
 
@Elizhaa

It seems like Qawsedf234 agrees with Sora having acausality here. Do you agree with that and possible other conclusions from him?

Also, thank you to Qawsedf234 for helping out.
 
If there were elaborations that Sora is outside of fate or passively shown to be outside of standards causality of sorts, I could see type 4 is fine. There is a gray area with acausality being given through items like Zamasu's case with the time ring, though.

What I saw at face value is just some causality manipulation. I tried to search through the power of waking, but I found nothing to suggest the latter case.

From the new points. Limited/Activated acausality type 4 seems like a roundabout of causality manipulation/fate manipulation.
If the view is outvoted, I guess I won't oppose the conclusion.
 
Well, if both you and Qawsedf234 agree about it, it can probably be applied, in lack of better options.
 
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