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Bobsican

He/Him
21,628
6,273
Now that I have the time, let's cover the remaining stuff.

Resistance Negation layers

As some that played Chain of Memories may be aware, the card system is based on a number that goes from 0 to 9, and cards can stack up to three times for up to a total of 27, with the 0 card also bypassing any value, yet also being outprioritized by any card with an higher value afterwards.
The numbers also matter to perform certain moves with them, and some require numbers that high, for example:
2022-06-28_1.png

As we can see here, a combination of three cards of a type are required and go near to the limit of 27, which turns the usage of numbers that high as valid for our purposes as they were intended. Zantetsuken does go up to requiring three cards stacking for a total of 0 or 27, by the way.

And before anyone mentions cards are game mechanics and whatever, they're actually a plot element across the entire game, and even the CoM Ultimania bothers clarifying:

https://www.khinsider.com/news/A-Look-Back-CoM-Ultimania-System-Team-Graphic-Team-Interview-15757

Kanemori: It was difficult to adjust the balance between the card ls and the action. Put too much emphasis on handling the cards, and Sora's just standing there saying lines. But then put too much emphasis on moving Sora, and you start wondering why you even need the cards. We basically covered the borderline parts by making sure there were a wide range of card effects.

From the above, it's clear the cards are intended to be a part of the combat system in-universe.

Now, how is all of this relevant? Well, thing is that a card value higher even by a single number negates the opposing one, and so we have 27 layers of hax (notably including light and darkness as this also includes stuff like Holy and Dark Break), and then the 0 card adds an extra for a total of 28 for the before-mentioned reasons. While it'd be irrelevant outside CoM keys as this'd only extend to cards and whatnot (And thus anyone within Castle Oblivion in CoM), thing is that bosses can resist the effects of some cards even without them (Even being announced), case in point Stop magic failing against them even with a 27 or a 0, but Lethal Frame (a stronger time stop technique) ignores such resistance, and of course cases like Vexen taking considerable damage but not being erased by the Keyblade, which is why Axel just finishes him off.

Meaning that KH Light Manip, KH Darkess Manip, Time Stop, Existence Erasure, Gravity Manip (Which generally does a set percentage of damage on the target) and Law Manip (namely Luxord's in this case, in fact the inherited power of his enemy card does allow to break "any" card regardless of number), would scale from this point onwards above 28 layers, or more specifically, a minimal of 29 layers from this point onwards as we do have cases of such inherent resistance being bypassed outside Castle Oblivion even then (Such as Mickey's Stopza keeping Marluxia frozen, light and darkness still threatening to delete others, etc), and I've already explained that such resistance isn't bound to the cards to be limited to that place.

Tigger 9-B Upgrade

I never thought he'd have a feat, but whatever, Tigger casually broke a bridge by bouncing on it (last 10 seconds).


Player and Pet P&A Additions

Needless to say, as anyone that played Union X before the shutdown knows (which aren't many, but lol), Player can inherit the power of characters from the future with the medals, and Pet can also use them, and so there's a ton of additions for them:

(List of moves here)

Most techniques just do damage and whatnot, so I'll just broadly mention what'd be worth mentioning that's not already on the page:


Unfortunately, UX doesn't bother giving flavor details to each move, so the most we have is visuals, a element in some cases, and context provided by other games in the series, and given that they're directly inherited from other characters, it'd be safe to just scale accordingly.

Type 4 Acausality for Sora

Currently, the resistance to Fate Manip is based on the following:

"Sora's use of the Power of Waking overwrote the foretold events from the Book of Prophecies"

In context, the Book of Prophecies is an historical redaction of the events to happen, with its last stuff ending just as said, however, Sora defied such events anyways, and they ended up being overwritten.

Rating it as a resistance to fate manip implies that the Book of Prophecies has fate manip, when it just records what was destined to happen, and Sora managed to defy a predestined outcome, so type 4 Acausality is a more accurate way of listing this stuff.
For that matter, Kairi even remarks that the Book of Prophecies was rewritten out of Sora defying its foretold events.

Higher resistance to Electricity Manip while in Flowmotion for Sora

This may be oddly specific, but there's some legitimate feats on this regard, namely how Sora gets damaged if he tries to run into the walls set by Xemnas, yet is unaffected when he uses Flowmotion to propel himself on them, similarly, Sora is undamaged when dashing with Flowmotion across electricity in Monstropolis. And no, dashing with Flowmotion doesn't give invulnerability frames or whatever, so it isn't a game mechanic.





Minor P&A Addition to Keyblade wielders

It appears this one extends to about any Keyblade, as CLU doesn't make a distinction for Sora's and neither does he for that matter.

So, CLU points out that the Keyblade can open any lock, and for this case it'd be for ignoring the password to go outside, therefore anyone that has a Keyblade should get Data Manip or so.
 
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Follwing this and agreeing, made me remember about CLU wanting the Keyblade lol (wich makes sense since the Keyblade can open and seal keyholes from worlds so it being able to access the real world isn't far fetched)
 
No wonder Chirithy remarks that Sora wouldn't be able to come back from Quadratum without his powers, which'd imply he'd be able to do so with them.
 
Tbf Quadratum is its own...thing, I'm sure the next game will tell us it messes with Sora's and usual Keyblades's powers so he's gonna need to learn how do it differently
 
Most things seems fine, tho I have something to say about a few.

The flowmotion thing might actually be game mechanics, mostly to allow it to remain functional and not prevent it from being used.

Acaus 4 could be ok, but I want to hear to hear the thoughts of more knowledgeable people.

The layers should be ok, at least in-verse, unless something contradicts it, but we should be careful to use these in vs matches, as other characters might not need to actually bypass 28 layers of resistance themselves in their own-verse, we should still apply the rule of potency comparison.
 
What do you mean? For instance, Flowmotion is the only way to evade Xemnas' walls in KH3D, High Jump doesn't reach far enought to go above them, and for that matter, that detail (of them not hurting if in Flowmotion) also carries over to KHIII, Flowmotion in KHIII also has Sora having some electricity around him, for that matter.
If you mean the Monstropolis part, well, as I've said before, that move doesn't have invulnerability frames or whatever in other circumstances, and so if the intent was to take damage anyways that'd have been really plausible to just portray accordingly, especially with the main way to evade the electricity being just hiding behind the doors when passing those parts.


Very well, I'll contact some users knowledgeable on that.

Yeah, semantics in general can be at play and all for the purposes of versus threads, although a potency is generally unquantificable (And thus unusable) against an actual resistance, as much as we no longer assume that mindhaxing 5 people means someone can mindhax a single target with an actual resistance even with such power concentrated on such.
 
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@Bobsican sorry, but is it time for kingdom hearts tier 1 upgrade?
also, i want to Really know why the Foretellers are below Xehanort?
sorry if i am derailing the discussion.
 
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@Bobsican sorry, but is it time for kingdom hearts tier 1 upgrade?
also, i want to Really know why the Foretellers are below Xehanort?
sorry if i am derailing the discussion.
Eh, per Ant's request that has been delayed for until KHIV drops, as there's multiple concerns on how Quadratum is portrayed in relation to it, it being too vague at the moment, etc.

Player inherits the power of several characters, notably including Xehanort, yet he loses to the Foretellers.
 
Almost everything here seems fine at glance, but Aca 4 is a no... As the definition of type 4 states, Sora does not operate in a system different from the regular cause and effect in the verse, being able to rewrite a predetermined fate is something that many with resistance to fate manipulation can do, but that does not mean that by being able to do this they exist outside the regular cause and effect of their verse. You need proof.
 
Player inherits the power of several characters, notably including Xehanort, yet he loses to the Foretellers.
wait, shouldn't player be 2-A since Xehanort's base is 2-A and the medals use power from the future characters because KH3 Sora is 2-A?
 
wait, shouldn't player be 2-A since Xehanort's base is 2-A and the medals use power from the future characters because KH3 Sora is 2-A?
Yes, the tiering CRT is just taking a while to be applied.

Almost everything here seems fine at glance, but Aca 4 is a no... As the definition of type 4 states, Sora does not operate in a system different from the regular cause and effect in the verse, being able to rewrite a predetermined fate is something that many with resistance to fate manipulation can do, but that does not mean that by being able to do this they exist outside the regular cause and effect of their verse. You need proof.
Hmmm... if you say so, in any case I've contacted @Elizhaa to be sure, plus I'd need more staff input to do much here TBH.
Thanks for the input BTW.
 
Sure, but I said at glance, I will go thorugh it in few minutes to see if there is anything else I disagree with, for now only Aca 4.
 
I’m no expert, but reading through this, everything seems fine to apply. Out of curiosity, how would the resistance negation layers work in a vs battle scenario? (side note, but this does make curious to see how Castle Oblivion would work as a location profile)
 
I’m no expert, but reading through this, everything seems fine to apply. Out of curiosity, how would the resistance negation layers work in a vs battle scenario? (side note, but this does make curious to see how Castle Oblivion would work as a location profile)
Something like "X's Y manipulation has shown to be of at least 29 layers of resistances as it can bypass the resistance Z has shown to 28 layers of the same power"
Castle Oblivion would be a weird page to say the least, and probably too gimmicky even for me to just index in a day, that kind of stuff may be indexed when I'm running out of ideas.
 
I want to know exactly what is the difference between layers of the cards. I generally have the same concern as Samanpatou. That 28 layers in this verse, for another verse I may not even need 4 layers to overcome because the other verse has a difference of infinite, uncountable/innumerable, unquantifiable, dimensional difference but that is nothing related to tier 1, etc. A clearly stated difference.
 
The difference is one bypassing the previous one, as stated before, which is a direct case of a resistance negation layer each.

If a potency can't be compared/related to an actual resistance to begin with, it's generally taken as unusably above baseline beyond what's portrayed at most, as much as we don't make up numbers for stat amps that aren't elaborated on, so that shouldn't be a concern as that's more like basic hax policy.

Anything that could be argued beyond that should be case by case in the respective versus thread as usual, but by default 28 layers should be 28 layers for these purposes, and of course it won't cover any possible usage of the respective powers, as much as someone can do EE with plot manip for instance.
 
I was not convinced by your explanation, but I still have no problem with the 28 layers, you just have to know that 1 layer in one verse can be incomparable to another layer in another verse.

Only disagree with Aca 4.
 
Oh, that much I can agree on, not every resistance is compatible with any method for X power after all, I thought you meant something else.
 
I was called to give input on Type 4 and I have no clue how the verse works, but I got a small context thing

So apparently this dude dropped his eye, and his eye makes observations, based on these observations, the dude writes a book telling the events of the future or smth like that, book of prophecies or smth

Normally I'd be against, since if these are observations, by just like... seeing, you can use the experience / observations you gathered to make a conclusion, yes- much like how meteorologists or scientists of varying kinds use observations and data to draw conclusions, but you'll never be able to perfectly predict something through repeated observation alone, sure, it's highly likely that X thing would happen, but it doesn't mean its fated to happen or something. A meteorlogist is wrong sometimes, when they predict something based on previous data, they don't decide what's gonna happen


However, apparently this guy looked into the future, and according to Bob, who apparently has a scan to prove it, Kingdom Hearts only has 1 Timeline, so all the possibilities funnel down to like, one result, a result which Sora defied, so I'd have to say that Type 4... and it's not fate resist, because the book is just a normal bloody book
 
To add onto the above, yeah, even after the whole thing there was only one timeline
2022-06-30_1.png

I can give scans to anything else if requested.
 
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Type 4 Acausality for Sora

Currently, the resistance to Fate Manip is based on the following:

"Sora's use of the Power of Waking overwrote the foretold events from the Book of Prophecies"

The above implies that the Book of Prophecies has fate manip, when it just records what was destined to happen, and Sora managed to defy a predestined outcome, so type 4 Acausality is a more accurate way of listing this stuff.
For that matter, Kairi even remarks that the Book of Prophecies was rewritten out of Sora defying its foretold events.
It seems more like Causality Manipulation since Sora used the power of waking to change the event not that Sora has an irregular or different casual system.
 
I was called to give input on Type 4 and I have no clue how the verse works, but I got a small context thing

So apparently this dude dropped his eye, and his eye makes observations, based on these observations, the dude writes a book telling the events of the future or smth like that, book of prophecies or smth

Normally I'd be against, since if these are observations, by just like... seeing, you can use the experience / observations you gathered to make a conclusion, yes- much like how meteorologists or scientists of varying kinds use observations and data to draw conclusions, but you'll never be able to perfectly predict something through repeated observation alone, sure, it's highly likely that X thing would happen, but it doesn't mean its fated to happen or something. A meteorlogist is wrong sometimes, when they predict something based on previous data, they don't decide what's gonna happen


However, apparently this guy looked into the future, and according to Bob, who apparently has a scan to prove it, Kingdom Hearts only has 1 Timeline, so all the possibilities funnel down to like, one result, a result which Sora defied, so I'd have to say that Type 4... and it's not fate resist, because the book is just a normal bloody book
It seems more like Causality Manipulation since Sora used the power of waking to change the event not that Sora has an irregular or different casual system.
Have you checked this too?
 
Going by our profile, this is the note for Fate Manipulation
Fate Manipulation is the ability to manipulate destiny itself to achieve a desired result. More subtle forms of the ability can simply nudge events in the users favor while more powerful variations can make it possible to ordain one's victory against their opponent.
This is Causality Manipulation
The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect. A finger snap that normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection. The user could also instantly erase anything from existence, by making its existence the cause of its own nonexistence. Another possibility is the instant rewriting of a whole reality, by making Reality X (the current reality) the cause of Reality Y (a tailor-made one).

At a high level, the user would be able to rewrite the laws of causality as a whole, essentially playing God.
And here's Acasual 4
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
From the look of it since the book is just writing stuff as it happens it would be more like Causality Manipulation, since he isn't denying future events but present ones.

But idk could be wrong. KH is pretty anime and I don't have the knowledge to really weigh in on much.

EDIT: Actually no, since KH only has one timeline and getting over predestined fate would be still be Acasual just a tweaked justification.
 
From the look of it since the book is just writing stuff as it happens it would be more like Causality Manipulation, since he isn't denying future events but present ones.

But idk could be wrong. KH is pretty anime and I don't have the knowledge to really weigh in on much.

EDIT: Actually no, since KH only has one timeline and getting over predestined fate would be still be Acasual just a tweaked justification.
Oh no, the Book of Prophecies isn't writing stuff as it happens, the Master of Masters saw the future from a Keyblade that was passed across generations and wrote relevant stuff accordingly to it.
 
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Uh... given that Qawsed edited his thoughts on the matter, I'm not sure if the FRAs hold up as much for it being causality manip over acausality, mind giving an updated take on the matter? I'd rather avoid misunderstandings and all.
 
Sora already has Causality Manipulation for changing the events that happened. If I understand the matter right, then Acausality is being suggested due to the fact that the Book of Prophecies, which was written in the distant past using details that the Master of Masters saw in the future through his eye that was embedded in the Keyblade he passed down, predicted the downfall of Sora and his friends and Sora managed to avert that and created two contradictory histories which exist in one and the same timeline with that action.
 
Sora already has Causality Manipulation for changing the events that happened. If I understand the matter right, then Acausality is being suggested due to the fact that the Book of Prophecies, which was written in the distant past using details that the Master of Masters saw in the future through his eye that was embedded in the Keyblade he passed down, predicted the downfall of Sora and his friends and Sora managed to avert that and created two contradictory histories which exist in one and the same timeline with that action.
That's pretty much that from what I get
 
Would you be willing to try to reach an agreement here please?
Its still Acasual 4. The justification just needs to be tweaked since the version Bob originally gave was missing a large amount of the context regarding what happened.
 
Okay. That is probanly fine to apply then, if there are no serious objections. Thank you for helping out.
 
Okay, I'll go ahead and apply the stuff later, today's a special day for a close family member of mine, so I won't be around too much for a while.
 
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, given how the Acausality works, would it be fine to just give it to anyone with the Power of Waking (which is how that stuff is done to begin with)? Namely also for Riku, Mickey and the Master of Masters.
 
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, given how the Acausality works, would it be fine to just give it to anyone with the Power of Waking (which is how that stuff is done to begin with)? Namely also for Riku, Mickey and the Master of Masters.
I'm not sure about that. If the Master of Master had this ability wouldn't he have been able to see that coming when he wrote the Book of Prophecies?
 
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