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Kingdom Hearts Miscellaneous CRT

Thank you, Bobsican.

Can you also provide an explanation post, Theglassman12?
 
If this gets us to finish this thread then fine I'll summarize my final point.

Nothing about your example on Irregular is remotely comparable to the Power of Waking. Nothing about the Power of waking implies that Sora can function on a different cause and effect, and the former is literally a state of being as it's his nature to do it. Not a random ability that just resets whatever happened in the events. It is his actual nature because one of the scans in the OP literally refers to him as a different existence. So if you're going to bring up that CRT maybe pay attention to the scans that's used because they actually have scans that imply a different state of being. Congratulations on taking 2 out of 3 of those examples you have out of context because neither of them have any comparisons with Sora using an ability to get out of a situation. Both of them are just their existences being different than others, hence their type 4 reasoning, and the other is just flat out wrong.

It's not different standards, Simon's page is wrong. He should not have type 4 acausality at all given the only context of this is a literal speech he yells to his foes about how they can do anything. That's not a good reason for type 4 acausality when he's the same type of being as he was before. I can say the same for your argument having any weight because you have taken these examples out of context for the nth time and ignore important scans that differentiate them from Sora. So maybe pay attention for once when I'm saying that they clearly aren't the same. Yeah, overturns fate and predestination, so fate resistance, nothing about this mentions any acausal state.

And goku black's case is very very limited as he loses the acausal state when his ring is gone, even if you wanna push this for Sora this is at best a limited acausal for him.

Absorbing someone's entire being into your own and having a power to rewrite fate is not the same thing at all, stop going off topic and stop comparing apples to oranges because that's a non sequiter here.

Ah, the god's bloodline, so something unique to their own existence and nothing else, at this point nothing you're bringing up has any weight to it.

Either way to sum up my arguments, Sora's power of waking shouldn't grant him anything beyond some fate resistance since it just functions to rewrite an event that was supposed to happen, nothing about it implies him functioning on a different cause and effect system.
 
I can notice some blatant issues on Glassman's post, but at this point I'd rather wait to see what others think before dragging the discussion any further.
 
Okay. No problem then. I have a hard time keeping track of the specifics of many different discussions at the same time.
 
Should I ask a few other administrators for input help here as well?
 
I do recall the 0 card was accepted as proper resistance negation in any case, for now we'll just go with what was accepted beyond that, maybe I'll even make a verse-specific power-page on the cards.

Regardless, given the lack of input, it'd be fine to contact other staff in lack of better options, yes.
 
Okay. Thank you for the reply.
 
Just call some other staff members who can give their opinions on this. I’m still in full disagreement on type 4 Acausality.
 
I have tried repeatedly, but not received almost any responses.

However, you or Nehz can try to call for some yourselves if you wish.
 
Currently it appears there's two staff in favor (Nehz, Elizhaa), and one in disagreement (Glassman).

Overall there's a net higher agreement on the matter so far.
 
Okay. The compromise solution should probably be applied in lack of better options then.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you.

@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @SamanPatou @Nehz_XZX

Can you help us out by evaluating the following two posts please?


Click to expand...
Acausality Type 4 seems weaker; I kind of have the same thought with the feat would either the (causality manipulation and/or fate manipulation) or/and resistance to causality manipulation and/or fate manipulation.
 
Okay, given Elizhaa appears to have the same thoughts as Glassman, may as well debunk this stuff

Theglassman12 said:
If this gets us to finish this thread then fine I'll summarize my final point.

Nothing about your example on Irregular is remotely comparable to the Power of Waking. Nothing about the Power of waking implies that Sora can function on a different cause and effect, and the former is literally a state of being as it's his nature to do it. Not a random ability that just resets whatever happened in the events. It is his actual nature because one of the scans in the OP literally refers to him as a different existence. So if you're going to bring up that CRT maybe pay attention to the scans that's used because they actually have scans that imply a different state of being. Congratulations on taking 2 out of 3 of those examples you have out of context because neither of them have any comparisons with Sora using an ability to get out of a situation. Both of them are just their existences being different than others, hence their type 4 reasoning, and the other is just flat out wrong.
Click to expand...
Concession accepted and moving on, you are choosing to ignore the most basic points that I proposed to you and are now being willingly ignorant in your judgment. You're repeating the same points again and did not address once more why Enryu is considered an irregular (hint, it's kinda important to the argument) and just cycled back to the same circular argumentation that I called in the previous post.

Now you are accusing me of taking it out of context? May I ask how? You can't just say they are "different" without first explaining why they are objectively different. Enryu's "irregular" nature is solely cause he can overturn fate and predestination just by existing. It's not anything more complicated than that and it's certainly not what you are stated.
Theglassman12 said:
It's not different standards, Simon's page is wrong. He should not have type 4 acausality at all given the only context of this is a literal speech he yells to his foes about how they can do anything. That's not a good reason for type 4 acausality when he's the same type of being as he was before. I can say the same for your argument having any weight because you have taken these examples out of context for the nth time and ignore important scans that differentiate them from Sora. So maybe pay attention for once when I'm saying that they clearly aren't the same. Yeah, overturns fate and predestination, so fate resistance, nothing about this mentions any acausal state.
Click to expand...
It absolutely is different standards and you know it. I've bothered asked you countless times to define what "standard causality" is in the context of this site and you refused to do so. That's a concession because your whole argument hinges on Sora being bound by "standard causality" and you haven't actually outlined what that is and why Sora is still bound to it.

You are wasting everyone’s time but just ignoring points and going on irrelevant tangents that doesn't pertain to the relevant conditions I outlined for you (a blatant "moving the goalposts" fallacy).

And BTW, just saying my argument is "out of context" is irrelevant for its validity when you can't actually explain how that's the case and why that's the case. You are repeating points and have no real refutations other than non-arguments at this point. This is getting tiresome and it's on the border of ad nauseam.
Theglassman12 said:
And goku black's case is very very limited as he loses the acausal state when his ring is gone, even if you wanna push this for Sora this is at best a limited acausal for him.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Sora is going to be considered limited but that's only because it's not his inherent nature but because it's more or less a passive force that gives him that nature. This is still applicable for not only Acausality but Type 4 per reasons highlighted countless times already, why else do you think I used Goku Black as an example?
Theglassman12 said:
Absorbing someone's entire being into your own and having a power to rewrite fate is not the same thing at all, stop going off topic and stop comparing apples to oranges because that's a non sequiter here.
Click to expand...
Please do everyone a favor and actually read the arguments presented over presuming what my argumentation is.
The reason why N.E.O was brought up in the first place is because you are acting as if a state of being or anything that would normally be inherent can't under any circumstances be applicable for what it is.

Your logic dedicates if something isn't natural, then it can't be applicable (ignoring all the times a character on site is giving something through abilities, items or what not... Basically anything that isn't an inherent ability they have).

If you are gonna call a non sequitur, then fully read and understand my points, otherwise it makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. Not saying it's the same as Sora's case but it's to highlight another problem that I have with your arguments, which is the "not inherent = not applicable" premise you keep propagating with no basis at all, which easily sets a bad precedent on the site.
Theglassman12 said:
Ah, the god's bloodline, so something unique to their own existence and nothing else, at this point nothing you're bringing up has any weight to it.
Click to expand...
It's not blood, it's something similar to such but not exactly. It's literally just a power source that emanates from the gods and is considered the equivalent. Also, blood isn't one's existence either If someone is acausality or nonexistence, not all aspects of them is going to be such unless it's specified otherwise.
That's why we separated the latter into different aspects to begin with, which makes you look as if you didn't even bother researching and are doing claims for the sake of it.
Theglassman12 said:
Either way to sum up my arguments, Sora's power of waking shouldn't grant him anything beyond some fate resistance since it just functions to rewrite an event that was supposed to happen, nothing about it implies him functioning on a different cause and effect system.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't think these arguments are remotely valid, ton of fallacies and misconceptions are rampant even based on how the site rates the power with tons of precedents that have even been brought up, Sora isn't even the first case of situational acausality as outlined before.
 
Bobsican said:
Yeah, I don't think these arguments are remotely valid, ton of fallacies and misconceptions are rampant even based on how the site rates the power with tons of precedents that have even been brought up, Sora isn't even the first case of situational acausality as outlined before.
Click to expand...
Situational acausality? Does that mean he does not have acausality in normal circumstances?
 
Hey Bob, when we agree to let the staff finally decide, that doesn't mean constantly argue more. Last time we're doing this back and forth, and drop the topic and let the staff decide, if it gets accepted, cool, if not whatever, it's not the end of the world.

Not a concession if I never admitted to being wrong in my points against you. You keep saying why he's an irregular but you never once remotely explain how in any way is this important. If you're going to be so ignorant as to ignore my point that these character's mere existence causes this then you're not tackling my point, so you're conceding to my arguments if you're not going to tackle the actual difference between the two and explain how it's the same thing.

Never has been and never will be. If it was different standards then so many other franchises I support would have type 4 for the same vague statements as before. The fact you have to ask me how standard causality is just proves how hard you're reaching. The fact that Sora was literally a part of the book of prophecy and was ****** over by the darkness had Kairi not tried to save him shoots your argument in the foot that he functions in a different cause and effect system. If he functions on a different cause and effect system then he wouldn't have been caught in the prophecy and reset the events to prevent it from happening. It doesn't matter if the book of prophecy doesn't have fate hax or not. The fact he specifically uses the ability to stop something that was predestined to happen means he's changing his own fate, which just grants him either fate manipulation or unconventional resistance by just ignoring it. I can say the same thing about you claiming it's only different standards without bringing up more examples than Simon, if he's the only one you can bring up with shit like this then you're not going to get anywhere here, especially when Type 4 just doesn't apply to Simon anymore.

Because it stays that way for goku black and has actual Acausal capabilities with the time ring, Sora's power of waking doesn't grant acausality when the kid was affected by what happened in the prophecies and needed kairi to save him.

Stop coloring your text, you make it very hard to read when your text blends with the background. Also no this is a non sequiter because nothing about N.E.O absorbing another being and becoming one with them is the same as Sora using an ability, if you're not going to explain how this is the same thing then your argument has no ground. Actually try to give an in depth explanation instead of just saying "look at this, it has this and it's accepted" without doing any comparison to how this connects to Sora.

Your link literally explains Ichor being the blood of the gods. Nothing about this link remotely explains it being different when it's literally god blood. For someone who claims I'm not doing any research you sure are doing the same thing for trying to use Saint Seiya as an example.

This is the last time I'm going to respond to this discussion, let the staff members handle it and close this thread when the accepted stuff has been added.
 
The scan doesn't mention functioning on a different cause and effect system, only mentions he can break through cause and effect and fate, which is at best resistance and not acausality. But this isn't a part of the thread so move this discussion somewhere else.
 
Yes, no derailing please.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Hey Bob, when we agree to let the staff finally decide, that doesn't mean constantly argue more. Last time we're doing this back and forth, and drop the topic and let the staff decide, if it gets accepted, cool, if not whatever, it's not the end of the world.
Click to expand...
Sure, while not everything is necessarily going to be accepted and all, beyond that that's not how the site works, the intent of a CRT is to aim for accuracy, which can be argued from the current status quo, especially with how the matter in terms of acceptance has been shifting across three staff members from one side to the other, so it's far from definitive as things currently stand
Theglassman12 said:
Not a concession if I never admitted to being wrong in my points against you. You keep saying why he's an irregular but you never once remotely explain how in any way is this important. If you're going to be so ignorant as to ignore my point that these character's mere existence causes this then you're not tackling my point, so you're conceding to my arguments if you're not going to tackle the actual difference between the two and explain how it's the same thing.
Click to expand...
It might as well be a concession since you have repeated the same points with basically little to no variation on top of repeatedly ignoring the one thing I asked, which was defining "standard causality". It was asked of you because it's important to determining whether Sora is bound to it or not, which you didn't answer and thus I have to take that as you can't reply.

BTW, I didn't ignore anything, I gave you examples that debunk what you said and thoroughly explained why your premise wouldn't work under the site's own standards. I don't need to focus on whether it's "inherent" or not because I explained why acausality and other state of being abilities can be gained through other means, meanwhile your points rely on "standard causality", something you didn't even bother to define or explain how Sora is bound to

The bottom line is that I've explained my points and refuted your premises, on the other hand, you haven't even defined the basic thing you are arguing, which is "standard causality" and you failed to elaborate on how Sora is bound to it, and so by extension you're indirectly conceding you can't, thus debunking this poor argument, Acausality doesn't require direct mentions of causality to qualify for it to say the least.
Theglassman12 said:
Never has been and never will be. If it was different standards then so many other franchises I support would have type 4 for the same vague statements as before. The fact you have to ask me how standard causality is just proves how hard you're reaching. The fact that Sora was literally a part of the book of prophecy and was ****** over by the darkness had Kairi not tried to save him shoots your argument in the foot that he functions in a different cause and effect system. If he functions on a different cause and effect system then he wouldn't have been caught in the prophecy and reset the events to prevent it from happening. It doesn't matter if the book of prophecy doesn't have fate hax or not. The fact he specifically uses the ability to stop something that was predestined to happen means he's changing his own fate, which just grants him either fate manipulation or unconventional resistance by just ignoring it. I can say the same thing about you claiming it's only different standards without bringing up more examples than Simon, if he's the only one you can bring up with shit like this then you're not going to get anywhere here, especially when Type 4 just doesn't apply to Simon anymore.
Click to expand...
You are trying to say Sora is bound to "standard causality", yet don't even bother defining it like I've bothered requesting for the sake of you having an argument to begin with. The closest thing of my requests that was fulfilled was explaining how Sora is "bound" to standard causality, even so, your example ignores the refutation I already gave you already covers that.

States of being can be gained and this extends to Acausality, alongside the fact that we have several profiles that show overturning predestined outcomes and defying fate is prerequisite for Acausality Type 4. You have yet to actually explain how it isn't or explain why this isn't a standard that this site evidently has based on the consistently accepted CRTs

Oh and BTW, this doesn't debunk it either. The book literally records fate and destiny within the timeline, meanwhile the Power of Waking caused two contradictory histories in the same, singularly timeline. It not only overturned a predestined outcome, defied fate but also shows that it isn't bound by the linear timeline and was able to generate two outcomes that contradict one another despite there being only one timeline.

This is Type 4 or at the very least, a type of Acausality no matter how you look at it. You didn't even bring up why Simon's is wrong beyond "figure of speech", which doesn't refute the fact it is considered Type 4 Acausality to begin with, which further proves my point about the standards, which you have been ignoring the entire debate up until now. You'd do a favor to everyone if you bothered actually reading the points given, as opposed to assuming what they were and worsening your own reputation.
Theglassman12 said:
Because it stays that way for goku black and has actual Acausal capabilities with the time ring, Sora's power of waking doesn't grant acausality when the kid was affected by what happened in the prophecies and needed kairi to save him.
Click to expand...
Didn't explain how Sora is bound to regular causality but okay, I'll take the hint on your part, you have no legitimate argument and are functioning on ad nauseam.

I already explained why it would be Type 4 by the site's standards, I explained why it's Acausality to begin with and I did all sorts of stuff over the course of this debate. Meanwhile you didn't even define the premise in which you are arguing here, which automatically is a bad sign to the fact you aren't arguing in any reasonable form of good faith or curiosity.
Theglassman12 said:
Stop coloring your text, you make it very hard to read when your text blends with the background. Also no this is a non sequiter because nothing about N.E.O absorbing another being and becoming one with them is the same as Sora using an ability, if you're not going to explain how this is the same thing then your argument has no ground. Actually try to give an in depth explanation instead of just saying "look at this, it has this and it's accepted" without doing any comparison to how this connects to Sora.
Click to expand...

Fine, I'll just use bolding.

Anyways, let's define a Non-Sequitur then:

non se·qui·tur /ˌnän ˈsekwədər/ Learn to pronounce noun noun: non sequitur; plural noun: non sequiturs; noun: nonsequitur; plural noun: nonsequiturs a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement. "his weird mixed metaphors and non sequiturs"
Click to expand...

Except my premise was that states of being can be obtained through other means and you are trying to imply that Sora not having Acausality naturally is a point against him when that's just objectively wrong by the standards of the site itself. N.E.O is used as an example among others because it shows you can gain a state of being through other means, which BTW, you can't normally do for obvious reasons. Me absorbing flames doesn't mean I become fire and so on, so just saying "N.E.O absorbed Barbamon explains this" isn't a handwave argument against this, doesn't explain how, by your own premise, that's possible.

In fact, when I argued Enryu had the same thing as the Power of Waking, this was one of your replies:

Except that he’s classified as an irregular in his page which means he’s not a normal human being. Why he’s an irregular isn’t relevant to the topic when the topic is him functioning different because of his state of being. The OP literally has a scan that says “just like you, a different existence within a tower”, meaning it’s something related to their existence and not a power they randomly get.
Click to expand...

And so I'd appreciate if you'd please just admit you are shifting the goalposts or quit compromising everyone's time by being difficult for no real reason.

Theglassman12 said:
Your link literally explains Ichor being the blood of the gods. Nothing about this link remotely explains it being different when it's literally god blood. For someone who claims I'm not doing any research you sure are doing the same thing for trying to use Saint Seiya as an example.
Click to expand...





"Blood" is just a figurative, it's actually shown to be something more like a sort of golden energy and not literal blood. So no, it's not a part of the Gods' beings, and even if it was, not all aspects of someone are going to be of a same nature. Just because I'm nonexistent, doesn't mean my mind and soul are, which is why nonexistence physiology was separated into aspects as I pointed out many times at this point, for instance.

Theglassman12 said:
This is the last time I'm going to respond to this discussion, let the staff members handle it and close this thread when the accepted stuff has been added.
Click to expand...
Sure, if you lack the time/will to evaluate in good faith we're forced to just rely on other staff, you're still more than welcome to do a CRT to change this if you go back into the topic way after it was applied (if it gets accepted), but I'd still appreciate some more legitimate arguments that don't lean into double standards and fallacies
 
I'm sure Glassman just voiced at the end of his post that he was no longer going to continue on the discussion, so we may need more staff to evaluate.
 
But didn't I try that repeatedly previously, with only the current ones being interested? Just because Glassman has left, this does not invalidate his evaluations here.
 
Yeah, anyone is free to follow up on his arguments if they consider them still reasonable (and can explain why of course), but we can't really rely as much on him here anymore by his own admission.
It wouldn't hurt to try to ping them once again, I'll also do my part and try to promote this CRT elsewhere.
 
Have you and Glassman written explanation posts previously that I can ask them to take a look at?

However, again, you cannot stonewall what has been decided by our available staff here indefinitely. Not every content revision thread can go exactly like you want, and I would prefer if we conclude this one with what has been decided after lots of discussion here.
 
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