Kingdom Hearts Miscellaneous CRT

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't see how this here would be type 4 when he needs to use an ability to rewrite what happened as opposed to his existence defying it.

Wait, something wrong here, why defy predestined events come off as Acausality 4???. Nothing suggested Sora operating on a different cause and effect system??. Power of Waking is just Causality Manipulation and Acausality is a state of being power not some hax

It was because of there being only one timeline which the Book of Prophecies recorded through the Master of Masters being able to see the future. What Sora did caused a paradox where two versions of the same events existed in one and the same timeline defying the predictions of the Book of Prophecies despite the fact that the Master of Masters' eye embedded in Xehanort's Keyblade would have seen that event and therefore would have enabled the Master of Masters to write that down in the Book of Prophecies which for some reason didn't happen. It's a weird case like that.

 

[Vietthai96]

It was because of there being only one timeline which the Book of Prophecies recorded through the Master of Masters being able to see the future. What Sora did caused a paradox where two versions of the same events existed in one and the same timeline defying the predictions of the Book of Prophecies despite the fact that the Master of Master's eye embedded in Xehanort's Keyblade would have seen that event and therefore would have enabled the Master of Masters to write that down in the Book of Prophecies which for some reason didn't happen. It's a weird case like that.

Unless there is more context to this, no, it is not Acausality type 4. I can understand why Bob made this conclusion, but actually no. I will repeat that type 4 mean the character operating under different system of causality, simply causing a paradox and overwrite a new history, outcome on the existing one is doesn't mean said character operating on different cause and effect, simply having resistance to fate hax and having causal hax is enough to explain this actually.

 

[Sniper670]

So it's not Acausality type 4, but you're fine with granting them the advantages that comes with type 4

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Unless there is more context to this, no, it is not Acausality type 4. I can understand why Bob made this conclusion, but actually no. I will repeat that type 4 mean the character operating under different system of causality, simply causing a paradox and overwrite a new history, outcome on the existing one is doesn't mean said character operating on different cause and effect, simply having resistance to fate hax and having causal hax is enough to explain this actually.

That was previously discussed as well. The thing is that neither the Book of Prophecies nor the Master of Masters actually manipulate the future with the Book of Prophecies being a normal book with extraordinary contents about what the Master of Masters observed in the future.

I was called to give input on Type 4 and I have no clue how the verse works, but I got a small context thing

So apparently this dude dropped his eye, and his eye makes observations, based on these observations, the dude writes a book telling the events of the future or smth like that, book of prophecies or smth

Normally I'd be against, since if these are observations, by just like... seeing, you can use the experience / observations you gathered to make a conclusion, yes- much like how meteorologists or scientists of varying kinds use observations and data to draw conclusions, but you'll never be able to perfectly predict something through repeated observation alone, sure, it's highly likely that X thing would happen, but it doesn't mean its fated to happen or something. A meteorlogist is wrong sometimes, when they predict something based on previous data, they don't decide what's gonna happen


However, apparently this guy looked into the future, and according to Bob, who apparently has a scan to prove it, Kingdom Hearts only has 1 Timeline, so all the possibilities funnel down to like, one result, a result which Sora defied, so I'd have to say that Type 4... and it's not fate resist, because the book is just a normal bloody book

 

[Vietthai96]

So it's not Acausality type 4, but you're fine with granting them the advantages that comes with type 4

Huh?????. He do showing the ability of resiting predestinted events which mean resistance to fate hax. And Power of Waking do look like Causality hax, since he overwriting a new history, why not give him these abilities, stop gauging every abilities a tiny bit like that, if said character qualify, they get the abilities, if not then no, i don't measuring this advantage that advantage one ability can give, because that is vs match mindset, our wiki first and foremost purpose is indexing character power

That was previously discussed as well. The thing is that neither the Book of Prophecies nor the Master of Masters actually manipulate the future with the Book of Prophecies being a normal book with extraordinary contents about what the Master of Masters observed in the future.

The book can fate hax or not is irrelevant to this discussion actually, it is not a factor to determine acausality type 4, since what determine it is the causality system the character operating under is irregular or not, again defy certain outcome or result is resistance to fate hax or fate hax itself, the entire premise of this come down to a single, very big assumption over that because Sora defy the outcome of a single timeline

However, apparently this guy looked into the future, and according to Bob, who apparently has a scan to prove it, Kingdom Hearts only has 1 Timeline, so all the possibilities funnel down to like, one result, a result which Sora defied, so I'd have to say that Type 4... and it's not fate resist, because the book is just a normal bloody book

This is it, a very big assumption, assume that because there is 1 timeline, the guy defy it outcome, result, then overwrite new outcome on it (since it is just a book, its recording thing), so Acausality type 4 since the guy must operating under different system. I can understand the mindset, but honestly it still didn't say anything about the any irregular causality here, just assumption

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The book can fate hax or not is irrelevant to this discussion actually, it is not a factor to determine acausality type 4, since what determine it is the causality system the character operating under is irregular or not, again defy certain outcome or result is resistance to fate hax or fate hax itself, the entire premise of this come down to a single, very big assumption over that because Sora defy the outcome of a single timeline

This is it, a very big assumption, assume that because there is 1 timeline, the guy defy it outcome, result, then overwrite new outcome on it (since it is just a book, its recording thing), so Acausality type 4 since the guy must operating under different system. I can understand the mindset, but honestly it still didn't say anything about the any irregular causality here, just assumption

Well, this is a weird situation where Fate Manipulation wasn't involved and the Master of Masters could technically have seen the changed future and written it down in the Book of Prophecies in the distant past. I'll just see what others have to say about this.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, this is a weird situation where Fate Manipulation wasn't involved and the Master of Masters could technically have seen the changed future and written it down in the Book of Prophecies in the distant past. I'll just see what others have to say about this.

Yeah, i already write down my arguments on the matter, if majority of staffs still agree with Acausality type 4 then.....well......i will accept it. Since when it come to these things all is just interpretation

 

[Sniper670]

Huh?????. He do showing the ability of resiting predestinted events which mean resistance to fate hax. And Power of Waking do look like Causality hax, since he overwriting a new history, why not give him these abilities, stop gauging every abilities a tiny bit like that, if said character qualify, they get the abilities, if not then no, i don't measuring this advantage that advantage one ability can give, because that is vs match mindset, our wiki first and foremost purpose is indexing character power

Yes, that's type 4 tho. Their nature defies normal causal system.

Simply existing outside of the worlds framework such that causal relations are defied is proof of irregular causal physiology

 

[Antvasima]

I don't see how this here would be type 4 when he needs to use an ability to rewrite what happened as opposed to his existence defying it.

@Elizhaa @Nehz_XZX @Bobsican

What do you think about this?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Elizhaa @Nehz_XZX @Bobsican

What do you think about this?

The issue is that having the option to rewrite what happened to defy fate isn't something that is supposed to be possible and should have been predicted by the Master of Masters since his Keyblade which has his eye embedded in it that allows him to see the future was involved in those events.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense to me at least.

 

[Bobsican]

While I can see from where some of the arguments are coming from, while acausality is generally granted to someone's inherent being in a way, sometimes even powers like that can be treated in fiction as a temporary thing of sorts with a certain power, so I wouldn't think that it requiring a power in particular to trigger is an anti-feat to qualify for such.

Treating it as just a resistance to fate manip and causality manip just seems rather inappropiate when the Book of Prophecies doesn't have fate manip to begin with as it's just a regular book regarding this to begin with, plus it's clear that if it was "passive" there would be no questions asked in this regard, which really puts the perspective.

 

[Theglassman12]

It's still an ability, not a state of being, that's the entire point of being an Acausal being, that your state of existence functions differently than normal. If you have to use a specific power to rewrite what happened then it's not acausality, it's just Sora using that power to stop what happened to him.

 

[Bobsican]

Actually, nowhere it is explicitly mentioned in the Acausality page that it's required to be a state of being to begin with, perhaps a CRT should be done on that matter?

 

[Theglassman12]

The explanation for each type literally has the description on beings able to exist differently, it doesn't take rocket science to tell they're referring to state of being.

 

[Antvasima]

Theglassman12 seems to make a good point in his last post.

I would appreciate further input here from @Nehz_XZX and @Elizhaa .

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So, the ability has an Acausality-like element to it but it doesn't qualify for Acausality since it is only with that one ability? That sounds very specific and confusing to index.

 

[Theglassman12]

It’s specifically tied to an ability so yeah, if it was something Sora naturally had due to his existence being different then it could register as type 4, but it doesn’t.

 

[Bobsican]

Then how do we index it? Saying "Causality Manipulation and Resistance to Fate Manipulation" seems inappropiate when no one is manipulating fate to begin with, and misleadingly restricts the power in contexts where Type 4 Acausality would be a better term.
Perhaps we can do a compromise and just say something like "Limited Type 4 Acausality", then explain its semantics and how it's not passive?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

From what I read there this is pretty much both fate manipulation and resistance to it

Fate is already set in stone, that's why it is written in the book and the book contains all of those events yet to come and as you said they happen just as it was written. Sora with the power of awakening is capable of going against the destiny that was already set for everyone and change it. Then the book rewrites itself with the new outcome that Sora created. Just rewritting fate while going against it.

If you want examples of this think of Terminator, the future is already set in stone and no matter what the characters try to do they can never stop the judgement day. They can only delay it (pretty similar to this but now quite the same). Now if Sora was there and used the power of awakening he should be able to stop it from happening permanently and ofc he would resist the destiny/fate that was already set in stone for everyone.

 

[Bobsican]

I suppose that could maybe work, but I wonder what others think.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Then the book rewrites itself with the new outcome that Sora created. Just rewritting fate while going against it.

The thing is that the book wasn't rewritten even though the Master of Masters should have been able to see the changed events with his eye.

 

[Bobsican]

On second thought...

The explanation for each type literally has the description on beings able to exist differently, it doesn't take rocket science to tell they're referring to state of being.

The page doesn't mention that someone can't just obtain such state of being temporarily if we want to go across those lines, as much as someone can get any given physiology with a power (often power bestowal, but that's an example either way).

Even then the Power of Waking on this regard relies on a verse mechanic that's simply been always there, so such condition is "always" up technically speaking.

In fact there's Goku Black gaining acausality while holding certain equipment, or Han Jee-Han having type 4 acausality while triggering a passive force that grants this nature to the user:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goku_Black_(DBS_Anime)

Acausality with Time Ring (Type 1, Immune to changes to the past, allowing him to survive Beerus erasing Present Zamasu from existence)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Han_Jee-Han

Acausality (Type 4, his power neglects cause and effect to function. Later this is also shown through his power "trumping" precognition, predicting the changes to the future caused by other seers who can see the future and act differetnly, giving a 100% accurate prediction)

The first one gives precedent on not requiring to inherently be in an acausal state of being to qualify, and being obtainable even if temporarily by other means without the user already being so, while the second one is even rather similar to the Power of Waking in here, a passive force that gives Sora this nature as opposed to him just doing a move and it temporarily disrupting fate.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The thing is that the book wasn't rewritten even though the Master of Masters should have been able to see the changed events with his eye.

It's literally in the OP: "For that matter, Kairi even remarks that the Book of Prophecies was rewritten out of Sora defying its foretold events."


The power of waking still doesn't sound like acausality, just defying and changing fate isn't enough to get acausality type 4

 

[Theglassman12]

You mean the time ring which is very limited for Goku Black as removing it would leave him vulnerable to paradoxes? That's not really a good comparison when it's not even a full blown acausality he naturally has and is again, very limited. And even then, what part of Sora rewriting the book of prophecies remotely implies he functions on a different cause and effect system than others? Especially when he only came back because Kairi was still there helping him out?

 

[Vietthai96]

Idk about Han Jee Han and i think there will be more context to that, but in Goku Black case, Time Ring gave him state of being power, that why he was listed Acausality type 1 with Time Ring, and it specifically say it make him exist when Beerus erase his past self

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It's literally in the OP: "For that matter, Kairi even remarks that the Book of Prophecies was rewritten out of Sora defying its foretold events."

Sora just rewrote the events, so that wording isn't quite correct. Just follow the link and you'll see that Kairi just says that Sora overwrote the light's defeat not that the book was overwritten. Kairi wouldn't know anything about the Book of Prophecies and Xehanort who has knowledge of it was shocked to get defeated because of his knowledge of the Book of Prophecies.

 

[Theglassman12]

And that's still not enough to suggest functioning in a different cause and effect system, just that Sora resists whatever the book of prophecies had.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

And that's still not enough to suggest functioning in a different cause and effect system, just that Sora resists whatever the book of prophecies had.

That's not what my last comment is about. I just wanted to clarify something about the wording. Whether or not that supports anything like existing in a different cause and effect system is a different matter and I'd rather let others work out the details here.

 

[Bobsican]

You mean the time ring which is very limited for Goku Black as removing it would leave him vulnerable to paradoxes? That's not really a good comparison when it's not even a full blown acausality he naturally has and is again, very limited. And even then, what part of Sora rewriting the book of prophecies remotely implies he functions on a different cause and effect system than others? Especially when he only came back because Kairi was still there helping him out?

An acausality type is still an acausality type, you yourself remarked that every type is generally bound to a status of being when I've just shown with that example that's not necessarily the case, I'm even already clarifying that the KH case for it would also be rather limited as is, so that's not really an argument either.

As for the rest, well, the type 8 immortality is unrelated to this, Kairi could bring back Sora from being a Heartless all the way back in KHI, for example, and I may as well bring up yet another example for the other part.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Enryu

Acausality (Type 4; As an Irregular, he exists in his own path that he makes himself, changing all other fates completely)

Going by the explanations argued in this CRT, type 4 acausality can be applicable by defying fate so long there's more context to it, in this case, the Power of Waking doesn't abide pre-established fates and allows someone to make their own, and by doing so they can alter any other pre-existent fate that was held before (aka, type 4 acausality).

Also keep in mind that this isn't the only other verse with type 4 acausality in this similar manner, at this point either there's no real argument against this beyond mere incredulity, or make a CRT to modify the standards

 

[Theglassman12]

And nothing about the Power of waking remotely says anything that implies Sora functions on a different cause and effect system. You lack the scans for anything like that.

You do realize your example on Enryu literally states he’s an irregular, AKA a different type of being than normal. This isn’t helping your case at all for Sora.

 

[Bobsican]

And nothing about the Power of waking remotely says anything that implies Sora functions on a different cause and effect system. You lack the scans for anything like that.

You do realize your example on Enryu literally states he’s an irregular, AKA a different type of being than normal. This isn’t helping your case at all for Sora.

Uh... I think you just took the title literally and ignored its context, an "Irregular" in-verse doesn't work like that, he's considered such out of his innate and passive nature to defy fate and change pre-destined outcomes, so the argument has no weight whatsoever as it doesn't cover why he's an Irregular, and when you bother doing the basic research, the premise of why he's such comes from the same kind of situation as the Power of Waking in here, namely defying a predestined outcome.

Like, just read the OP, I even linked it before, it's as clear as day on this regard, and it's accepted on the site too.

That's not even the only case where type 4 acausality is granted by someone defying a foretold destiny, there's also:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gurren_Lagann

Acausality (Types 2 & 4. Merged every version of itself upon integrating the Multiverse. Stated to have broken through cause, effect and fate. It is said, that even when trapped, their feelings open the gate, and they will decide their own fate)

There's also A Will Eternal's celestials, once again, the reasoning is being able to defy fate and pre-destination by nature alone https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gongsun_Wan'er

Acausality (Type 4, as a former Celestial, her Will subverts the will of the heavens, which set the fate of all people born under them. All powerful cultivators can go against the pre-ordained future)

From this, it's clear that VSBW's general consensus on what is "standard causality" is someone who's bound to fate and/or cause and effect relationships, if someone can defy that with their nature alone then it's type 4 acausality.

And so for your ideals to be even considerable, you'd need to first establish what is "standard causality" by the standards of the wiki, and then prove that Sora is still bound to it, as otherwise he fits solidly into type 4 acausality along with the other PoW users. I'll remind I have even already established previously that one doesn't even need to "permanently" be in such state of being to qualify as mentioned with the precedent given of Goku Black.

Either you concede or you revise the site's standards out of the blatant double standards otherwise, period.

 

[Theglassman12]

Except that he’s classified as an irregular in his page which means he’s not a normal human being. Why he’s an irregular isn’t relevant to the topic when the topic is him functioning different because of his state of being. The OP literally has a scan that says “just like you, a different existence within a tower”, meaning it’s something related to their existence and not a power they randomly get.

Simon’s page is just wrong then because nothing about the explanation let alone the scans remotely implies functioning on a different cause and effect, just some speech he and team Gurren always make when fighting anyone, which at best is just a resistance, nothing more.

By nature alone, meaning it’s something natural that Celestials in the verse has. Not an ability, so that’s not remotely comparable to Sora’s Power of Waking which has absolutely nothing to do with different rules for his own existence.

 

[Bobsican]

As it can be seen in the OP already, the Power of Waking (a kind of technique of sorts only certain characters in the series get) has a potential use to defy a foretold destiny.

The Master of Masters passed down a Keyblade for generations, and could see the future with it, then could foresee the defeat of light and the prevailness of darkness at the end, and such stuff was recorded in the Book of Prophecies, however, it isn't manipulating fate or anything like that, as it's just a normal book for these purposes beyond that

Even with all of that, Sora could still defy it anyways with the Power of Waking, which in turn specifically created two contradictory histories in the same timeline

To add onto the above, yeah, even after the whole thing there was only one timeline

I can give scans to anything else if requested.

With the recap done, let's go over Glassman's post

Except that he’s classified as an irregular in his page which means he’s not a normal human being. Why he’s an irregular isn’t relevant to the topic when the topic is him functioning different because of his state of being. The OP literally has a scan that says “just like you, a different existence within a tower”, meaning it’s something related to their existence and not a power they randomly get.

Glass, you're still entirely ignoring the whole image on the thing I've been pointing out, why is he considered an Irregular? It's because of his nature to defy fate and overwrite predestined outcomes with just his nature, as mentioned in the OP of the accepted CRT that got that added multiple times.

The fact you said it's "irrelevant" already proves that you are just choosing to ignore because your only argument as to why he was different from Sora was because he's called an "irregular" and not cause of his actual nature, which is no different from the Power of Waking as already highlighted before.

This is why I asked you to define "standard causality" because in order to claim Sora doesn't fit, you'd need to actually explain what is "standard causality" by the standards of the wiki.

Since you are ignoring this, I'll do it for you. People who are apart of "standard causality" are individuals who are bound by fate/cause and are unable to overturn it naturally. I already proven this to be the case with various profiles and even threads where it's generally considered such. Once again, define "standard causality", prove my definition of it is wrong and prove that Sora would be bound to it. That's it, otherwise your argument doesn't hold any weight whatsoever and is a double standard at best per reasons outlined previously

Simon’s page is just wrong then because nothing about the explanation let alone the scans remotely implies functioning on a different cause and effect, just some speech he and team Gurren always make when fighting anyone, which at best is just a resistance, nothing more.

It's not wrong, it's just that your standards for Acausality Type 4 and what this wiki defines as "standard causality" are different at this point. The site clearly considers beings bound to "standard causality" as just individuals who are bound to fate and or causality, with no way to overturn it or defy it.

For the third time, if you want your arguments to hold any weight whatsoever, bother defining what "standard causality" is by the standards of the wiki (With proof, not claims effectively made up by you, again) and then prove that is the case, otherwise I've already proven that and explained why Sora is outside of it.

This has already been explained to you even in this post based on consensus on several other pages on the site yet you are ignoring arguments and repeating points. As said before, the Power of Waking overturns fate and predestination, allowing those tied to it to change events set on stone in the timeline, creating two contrary outcomes in a single timeline. This is Acausality as it's not something one who operates on standard cause and effect could do with just their nature alone.

By nature alone, meaning it’s something natural that Celestials in the verse has. Not an ability, so that’s not remotely comparable to Sora’s Power of Waking which has absolutely nothing to do with different rules for his own existence.

Ahh, so thanks for showing us that you read nothing that I said about this. The wiki doesn't care if something is an ability, power source or not, a character can achieve a state of being that's not inherent to them and still get the stuff that one would get through said nature. This is exactly why I used Goku Black as an example, because he isn't inherently Acausal, but he can be through an item, showing that states of being or things similar can be potentially gained.

In fact, this doesn't even extend to just that. By your logic it's not Abstract Existence if a character uses an ability to become a concept or if someone isn't inherently such without any modifications. This clearly is not to the site's standards as we have many characters who have stuff despite not having an inherent state of being:

• N.E.O from Digimon has Abstract Existence, Nonexistence Physiology and a wide array of things from absorbing Barbamon
(those two being states of being)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/N.E.O_(Digimon_NEXT)

• Oh and how about the multitude of Saint Seiya characters who are considered Acausal because of Athena's Ichor, which is a literally a power source that gives them an acausal nature

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Phoenix_Ikki

Acausality (Through Athena's Divine Ichor)

https://saintseiya.fandom.com/wiki/Ichor

In Greek mythology, Ichor is the ethereal golden fluid that is the blood of the gods and/or immortals.

I can go on and on here, but the bottom line is everything you said is straight up not supported by the site's standards and as such, your arguments are at best asking for a double standard. As I've said, you are free to change them but this is how things are, either prove your beliefs align with the standards or just concede that you're incorrect.

This post even bothers recapping about everything brought up about the thing in question and the blatant site's standards on the matter, so I'll politely request that other staff members also voice their thoughts on the matter.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well, I do think that Fate Manipulation Resistance doesn't quite describe having two versions of the same events in one timeline and the Master of Masters apparently not being able to see that and write it down in the Book of Prophecies. The rather unique situation with the timeline can probably be ascribed to Causality Manipulation. There was indeed a predestined destiny that was defied which was supposed to be impossible according to what we know, so I guess that is where the Fate Manipulation Resistance comes from even though no one actually used Fate Manipulation for this particular instance.

The strange details and implications come with the Master of Masters who can view the future through his embedded eye in his Keyblade that was passed down and that was present during those events and how none of this is recorded in the Book of Prophecies. This sort of defying foretold fate without someone from the past seeing that through their Precognition despite the fact that their Precognition should have been able to detect it based on how it works is apparently because of a case of the improper use of the Power of Waking under rather special circumstances which has apparently never happened before either. We are likely to get more details with future games but this is how I see it for the moment.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any agreements here yet, or should I call for SamanPatou, Elizhaa, and Qawsedf234 to make a final decision?

 

[Bobsican]

SamanPatou just inserted on his forum wall he won't be around for two weeks.

Anyways, I'd appreciate the pinging for a final decision, yes.
I recall you Ant have said you have some knowledge on the standards for this stuff, so you're welcome to provide your thoughts on the matter, especially as you're also knowledgeable on the verse in question, but I can also understand if you lack the time for it.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not have enough free time and energy. Sorry.

Can each side of this argument provide an easy to understand explanation post regarding what should be done here please? After that I can call for the other staff members here.

 

[Bobsican]

As it can be seen in the OP already, the Power of Waking (a kind of technique of sorts only certain characters in the series get) has a potential use to defy a foretold destiny.

The Master of Masters passed down a Keyblade for generations, and could see the future with it, then could foresee the defeat of light and the prevailness of darkness at the end, and such stuff was recorded in the Book of Prophecies, however, it isn't manipulating fate or anything like that, as it's just a normal book for these purposes beyond that

Even with all of that, Sora could still defy it anyways with the Power of Waking, which in turn specifically created two contradictory histories in the same timeline



With the recap done, let's go over Glassman's post



Glass, you're still entirely ignoring the whole image on the thing I've been pointing out, why is he considered an Irregular? It's because of his nature to defy fate and overwrite predestined outcomes with just his nature, as mentioned in the OP of the accepted CRT that got that added multiple times.

The fact you said it's "irrelevant" already proves that you are just choosing to ignore because your only argument as to why he was different from Sora was because he's called an "irregular" and not cause of his actual nature, which is no different from the Power of Waking as already highlighted before.

This is why I asked you to define "standard causality" because in order to claim Sora doesn't fit, you'd need to actually explain what is "standard causality" by the standards of the wiki.

Since you are ignoring this, I'll do it for you. People who are apart of "standard causality" are individuals who are bound by fate/cause and are unable to overturn it naturally. I already proven this to be the case with various profiles and even threads where it's generally considered such. Once again, define "standard causality", prove my definition of it is wrong and prove that Sora would be bound to it. That's it, otherwise your argument doesn't hold any weight whatsoever and is a double standard at best per reasons outlined previously



It's not wrong, it's just that your standards for Acausality Type 4 and what this wiki defines as "standard causality" are different at this point. The site clearly considers beings bound to "standard causality" as just individuals who are bound to fate and or causality, with no way to overturn it or defy it.

For the third time, if you want your arguments to hold any weight whatsoever, bother defining what "standard causality" is by the standards of the wiki (With proof, not claims effectively made up by you, again) and then prove that is the case, otherwise I've already proven that and explained why Sora is outside of it.

This has already been explained to you even in this post based on consensus on several other pages on the site yet you are ignoring arguments and repeating points. As said before, the Power of Waking overturns fate and predestination, allowing those tied to it to change events set on stone in the timeline, creating two contrary outcomes in a single timeline. This is Acausality as it's not something one who operates on standard cause and effect could do with just their nature alone.



Ahh, so thanks for showing us that you read nothing that I said about this. The wiki doesn't care if something is an ability, power source or not, a character can achieve a state of being that's not inherent to them and still get the stuff that one would get through said nature. This is exactly why I used Goku Black as an example, because he isn't inherently Acausal, but he can be through an item, showing that states of being or things similar can be potentially gained.

In fact, this doesn't even extend to just that. By your logic it's not Abstract Existence if a character uses an ability to become a concept or if someone isn't inherently such without any modifications. This clearly is not to the site's standards as we have many characters who have stuff despite not having an inherent state of being:

• N.E.O from Digimon has Abstract Existence, Nonexistence Physiology and a wide array of things from absorbing Barbamon
(those two being states of being)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/N.E.O_(Digimon_NEXT)

• Oh and how about the multitude of Saint Seiya characters who are considered Acausal because of Athena's Ichor, which is a literally a power source that gives them an acausal nature

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Phoenix_Ikki



https://saintseiya.fandom.com/wiki/Ichor



I can go on and on here, but the bottom line is everything you said is straight up not supported by the site's standards and as such, your arguments are at best asking for a double standard. As I've said, you are free to change them but this is how things are, either prove your beliefs align with the standards or just concede that you're incorrect.

This post even bothers recapping about everything brought up about the thing in question and the blatant site's standards on the matter, so I'll politely request that other staff members also voice their thoughts on the matter.

Well, I do think that Fate Manipulation Resistance doesn't quite describe having two versions of the same events in one timeline and the Master of Masters apparently not being able to see that and write it down in the Book of Prophecies. The rather unique situation with the timeline can probably be ascribed to Causality Manipulation. There was indeed a predestined destiny that was defied which was supposed to be impossible according to what we know, so I guess that is where the Fate Manipulation Resistance comes from even though no one actually used Fate Manipulation for this particular instance.

The strange details and implications come with the Master of Masters who can view the future through his embedded eye in his Keyblade that was passed down and that was present during those events and how none of this is recorded in the Book of Prophecies. This sort of defying foretold fate without someone from the past seeing that through their Precognition despite the fact that their Precognition should have been able to detect it based on how it works is apparently because of a case of the improper use of the Power of Waking under rather special circumstances which has apparently never happened before either. We are likely to get more details with future games but this is how I see it for the moment.

This already summarizes the arguments for type 4 acausality, and the former also goes over how it fits the standard, and to go against that is simply asking for a double standard.

 

[RH0904]

ok