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Kingdom Hearts Miscellaneous CRT

An issue quickly came up when implementing the type 4 acausality stuff (which was already accepted with more elaborated discussion in this thread).

Anyways, the thing is that currently it's accepted to just give it to Sora and no one else out of the potential inconsistency with the Master of Masters having the capability to also change a foretold destiny with the same Power of Waking, but then an issue comes on what to rate the same non-standard use of the Power of Waking (which is how the whole thing happened) for everyone else, "Causality Manipulation and Resurrection" just no longer fit given the context that make it Acausality type 4, and in fact it's implied this isn't the first time it has happened as Chirithy warns Sora of the consequences of using it like that.

It'd be better to just default for now to MoM just not being willing to change it, which makes sense considering the negative consequences of that, and for that matter we do also know Xehanort has used it like that as well, and so there's precedent on it not being a Sora-only thing or anything, and so the proposal is to just give type 4 acausality to anyone with the PoW.
 
Bobsican said:
An issue quickly came up when implementing the type 4 acausality stuff (which was already accepted with more elaborated discussion in this thread).

Anyways, the thing is that currently it's accepted to just give it to Sora and no one else out of the potential inconsistency with the Master of Masters having the capability to also change a foretold destiny with the same Power of Waking, but then an issue comes on what to rate the same non-standard use of the Power of Waking (which is how the whole thing happened) for everyone else, "Causality Manipulation and Resurrection" just no longer fit given the context that make it Acausality type 4, and in fact it's implied this isn't the first time it has happened as Chirithy warns Sora of the consequences of using it like that.

It'd be better to just default for now to MoM just not being willing to change it, which makes sense considering the negative consequences of that, and for that matter we do also know Xehanort has used it like that as well, and so there's precedent on it not being a Sora-only thing or anything, and so the proposal is to just give type 4 acausality to anyone with the PoW.
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Didn't Xehanort himself think that the future couldn't be changed since it has already been written? The non-standard use of the Power of Waking definitely has enough support to be something that everyone with the Power of Waking can do but the matter of changing the future that was written in the Book of Prophecies seems more like a thing that everyone thought was impossible until Sora did it.
 
Bobsican said:
An issue quickly came up when implementing the type 4 acausality stuff (which was already accepted with more elaborated discussion in this thread).

Anyways, the thing is that currently it's accepted to just give it to Sora and no one else out of the potential inconsistency with the Master of Masters having the capability to also change a foretold destiny with the same Power of Waking, but then an issue comes on what to rate the same non-standard use of the Power of Waking (which is how the whole thing happened) for everyone else, "Causality Manipulation and Resurrection" just no longer fit given the context that make it Acausality type 4, and in fact it's implied this isn't the first time it has happened as Chirithy warns Sora of the consequences of using it like that.

It'd be better to just default for now to MoM just not being willing to change it, which makes sense considering the negative consequences of that, and for that matter we do also know Xehanort has used it like that as well, and so there's precedent on it not being a Sora-only thing or anything, and so the proposal is to just give type 4 acausality to anyone with the PoW.
Click to expand...
@Elizhaa @Theglassman12

What do you think about this?
 
Nehz_XZX said:
Didn't Xehanort himself think that the future couldn't be changed since it has already been written? The non-standard use of the Power of Waking definitely has enough support to be something that everyone with the Power of Waking can do but the matter of changing the future that was written in the Book of Prophecies seems more like a thing that everyone thought was impossible until Sora did it.
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Uh... can you cite those claims? I don't recall them myself.
 
Well, for a reason it's a non-standard use of the Power of Waking, I don't mean in the sense of "Only Sora can use it like that", but rather more like "Only Sora would be willing to use it like that" so far, while it wouldn't be in-character for about everyone else, we do still list potential things characters have in their P&A sections, even if they'd virtually never use it, not many characters even have the PoW either, even Eraqus also mentions right after that it could possibly be changed in the first link you provided as well, so Xehanort may just have a different belief in the matter.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, for a reason it's a non-standard use of the Power of Waking, I don't mean in the sense of "Only Sora can use it like that", but rather more like "Only Sora would be willing to use it like that" so far, while it wouldn't be in-character for about everyone else, we do still list potential things characters have in their P&A sections, even if they'd virtually never use it, not many characters even have the PoW either, even Eraqus also mentions right after that it could possibly be changed in the first link you provided as well, so Xehanort may just have a different belief in the matter.
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That still doesn't explain Xehanort retaining that attitude even as an old man and Young Eraqus didn't say that it was possible to do that with the Power of Waking and instead speculated that Light could prevail if he changed the future through some unspecified method.
 
Well, we do know from his character that he planned on the long term to get control over all worlds in several ways, which is the whole premise of the Dark Seeker Saga, and so it'd be reasonable to claim he's just impressed things didn't go as anticipated.

If we're going to use the pseudo-chess game that's not really explained so far in relation to the future events to take it like so, there's also Eraqus seemingly implying that it was with the Power of Waking, as this cutscene plays after the one where everyone is obliterated by the Demon Tide, in which Eraqus then mentions "some light comes from the past", which implies a reference to that one later part of the plot after the defeat was overwritten (by the PoW in fact as you may already know) in which the power of UX characters is called upon to defeat it.

Therefore it seems rather unwise to try to make the incorrect use exclusive to Sora based on rather vague implications with little proper connection to the rest of the events so far.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, we do know from his character that he planned on the long term to get control over all worlds in several ways, which is the whole premise of the Dark Seeker Saga, and so it'd be reasonable to claim he's just impressed things didn't go as anticipated.

If we're going to use the pseudo-chess game that's not really explained so far in relation to the future events to take it like so, there's also Eraqus seemingly implying that it was with the Power of Waking, as this cutscene plays after the one where everyone is obliterated by the Demon Tide, in which Eraqus then mentions "some light comes from the past", which implies a reference to that one later part of the plot after the defeat was overwritten (by the PoW in fact as you may already know) in which the power of UX characters is called upon to defeat it.

Therefore it seems rather unwise to try to make the incorrect use exclusive to Sora based on rather vague implications with little proper connection to the rest of the events so far.
Click to expand...
Data-Xehanort specifically refers to something that was written and not something that he planned, so while I can understand the conclusion it isn't as reasonable as you think. His primary emotion is also shock not a state of being impressed.

Eraqus does indeed refer to the light from the past but this is a reference to the UX characters and not the Power of Waking. It still leaves the issue that Young Eraqus doesn't seem to have a specific method for changing the future and instead just has an optimistic attitude of it being possible unlike Xehanort.
 
Well, we don't really know the amount of awareness (if any) or the relation of the Book of Prophecies with Xehanort in regards of knowledge so far, even then there's the whole context of Data-Xehanort being misinformed, as much as the data battle itself wasn't written to begin with in the Book of Prophecies as that was way after its last page.

I never said Eraqus would have the PoW to begin with, as far as we know he doesn't have the ability to begin with, and I'll reiterate that we have no proper confirmation so far to believe the chess game was dictating the future or the likes for it to matter on that regard.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, we don't really know the amount of awareness (if any) or the relation of the Book of Prophecies with Xehanort in regards of knowledge so far, even then there's the whole context of Data-Xehanort being misinformed, as much as the data battle itself wasn't written to begin with in the Book of Prophecies as that was way after its last page.

I never said Eraqus would have the PoW to begin with, as far as we know he doesn't have the ability to begin with, and I'll reiterate that we have no proper confirmation so far to believe the chess game was dictating the future or the likes for it to matter on that regard.
Click to expand...
It's still indicative of Xehanort maintaining the belief that the future as it was recorded in the Book of Prophecies couldn't be changed despite Master Xehanort, Terranort and even Young Xehanort knowing of the consequences of using the Power of Waking the way Sora did and thereby knowing of that specific application of the Power of Waking.

How exactly that chess game is tied to the future doesn't matter for my argument. The thing is that if there is a method of changing the future that Eraqus or anyone else knew at that time, then that is never actually referenced and Xehanort is completely unaware of it and nobody bothered to tell him about it.
 
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I mean, even Young Xehanort lectures Sora on the consequences of using the PoW like that (and we even see Sora flashback to it when Chirithy brings back the topic), if anything the Data-Xehanort statement looks like an outlier in relation to the rest of the lore at this point.

That's kinda valid, but at the same time this is literally in the middle of the time when they were studying to become Keyblade Masters, it'd be safe to claim they were just unaware and it's not really indicative of their final knowledge.
 
Bobsican said:
I mean, even Young Xehanort lectures Sora on the consequences of using the PoW like that (and we even see Sora flashback to it when Chirithy brings back the topic), if anything the Data-Xehanort statement looks like an outlier in relation to the rest of the lore at this point.

That's kinda valid, but at the same time this is literally in the middle of the time when they were studying to become Keyblade Masters, it'd be safe to claim they were just unaware and it's not really indicative of their final knowledge.
Click to expand...
That honestly just shows that Xehanort knows the Power of Waking well and despite that he still doesn't seem to lose any confidence in himself winning upon encountering a time traveling Sora in Scala ad Caeulum in Re:Mind. Young Xehanort's attitude is similar in that regard as well.

True, but this also means that we can't take Young Eraqus' attitude as indicative of the Power of Waking in general being able to change the future as it is dictated in the Book of Prophecy.
 
I bothered doing the research and it seems Sora's circumstances were rather specific, it's not the time travel what caused a timeline rewrite, but rather a sort of side effect from Sora trying to bring back hearts after they were erased from existence, it's within the realm of possibility that simply any misuse out of the intended one has negative consequences, which is how Chirithy and Xehanort are familiar with the idea yet unaware of the full background of Sora's for him to defy destiny with it.

For the second part, it does also mean that Xehanort's view on the future as something that can't be changed holds rather questionable bases for all we know.

The above does mean that only Sora's case would have the type 4 acausality be in character, however.
 
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Bobsican said:
I bothered doing the research and it seems Sora's circumstances were rather specific, it's not the time travel what caused a timeline rewrite, but rather a sort of side effect from Sora trying to bring back hearts after they were erased from existence, it's within the realm of possibility that simply any misuse out of the intended one has negative consequences, which is how Chirithy and Xehanort are familiar with the idea yet unaware of the full background of Sora's for him to defy destiny with it.

For the second part, it does also mean that Xehanort's view on the future as something that can't be changed holds rather questionable bases for all we know.

The above does mean that only Sora's case would have the type 4 acausality be in character, however.
Click to expand...
So, you are arguing that it is a matter of unique circumstances and that Sora is therefore the only one who actually made use of this particular aspect of the Power of Waking because of that?
 
Yes, I'm also going to quote the part of the Ultimania I mean while we're on that:

—When we leave the Final World, we are back to the point just before Sora and his friends were defeated. Why is that?

Nomura: The power of awakening is essentially "the power to put sleeping hearts back the way they were." But the impact of forcing his friends' fading hearts back the way they were rewrote reality, and created a singularity. The rewrite caused the chronology in which they were destroyed to have "never happened."
Click to expand...
 
Okay, in that case I suppose it'd be fine to just go with it being just type 4 acausality yet only virtually usable by Sora.
But of course I'd need to wait for a bit more staff input on this regard.
 
So can somebody write an easy to understand explanation post regarding the current conclusions here please?
 
Basically that based on Sora's circumstances being rather special compared to the rest, it's safe to claim the reason other characters don't expect changes in destiny from what was foretold is out of a lack of full context regarding Sora's case based on the information we have, and so it'd be reasonable to claim that it'd be fine to index the non-standard use of the Power of Waking as type 4 Acausality, although only Sora's case would have it in-character.
 
Bobsican said:
Basically that based on Sora's circumstances being rather special compared to the rest, it's safe to claim the reason other characters don't expect changes in destiny from what was foretold is out of a lack of full context regarding Sora's case based on the information we have, and so it'd be reasonable to claim that it'd be fine to index the non-standard use of the Power of Waking as type 4 Acausality, although only Sora's case would have it in-character.
Click to expand...
Okay. Thank you for the summary.

@Nehz_XZX @Theglassman12 @Elizhaa

What do you think about this?
 
Bobsican said:
Basically that based on Sora's circumstances being rather special compared to the rest, it's safe to claim the reason other characters don't expect changes in destiny from what was foretold is out of a lack of full context regarding Sora's case based on the information we have, and so it'd be reasonable to claim that it'd be fine to index the non-standard use of the Power of Waking as type 4 Acausality, although only Sora's case would have it in-character.
Click to expand...
Nehz_XZX said:
The situation feels a bit weird to me but I have no strong objections towards what Bobsican suggested.
Click to expand...
Bobsican said:
Bump.
If no staff objects I'd say the stuff can be applied.
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@Theglassman12 @Elizhaa

We would still appreciate some input here please.
 
Elizhaa has not visited here for over a day, so it is probably best to try to be patient for a while.
 
If Type 4 acausality is largely accepted, that is that; for the other things accepted, I have no issues.
 
Okay. Thank you for the reply.

Do we have a sufficient staff consensus to apply anything here then?
 
We have two staff in favor (one of which is also knowledgeable on the series), with no opposition either, so I'd say the rest is fine to apply at this point.
 
Okay. What about Theglassman12?
 
He hasn't commented on the matter, and AFAIK he's not knowledgeable on acausality type 4 standards nor this series per-say, so I wouldn't think his input is a big priority on this regard.
 
Bobsican said:
He hasn't commented on the matter, and AFAIK he's not knowledgeable on acausality type 4 standards nor this series per-say, so I wouldn't think his input is a big priority on this regard.
Click to expand...
Okay.

Can you explain what needs to be evaluated here, so I can call for Elizhaa and maybe Agnaa as well? I think that know quite well how acausality work.
 
Elizhaa already evaluated this as fine
Elizhaa said:
If Type 4 acausality is largely accepted, that is that; for the other things accepted, I have no issues.
Click to expand...
The type 4 acausality itself was already accepted, this is more-so for accepting a semantic of the power that grants it in this case to just effectively list it as a potential use even if most wouldn't use it like that out of semantics that were already mentioned.
Bobsican said:
Basically that based on Sora's circumstances being rather special compared to the rest, it's safe to claim the reason other characters don't expect changes in destiny from what was foretold is out of a lack of full context regarding Sora's case based on the information we have, and so it'd be reasonable to claim that it'd be fine to index the non-standard use of the Power of Waking as type 4 Acausality, although only Sora's case would have it in-character.
Click to expand...
I'll also reiterate that Nehz is also fine with these specifications.
 
Okay. I will give @Theglassman12 a final chance to respond here then, but if he does not post here soon, you can probably apply the revision.
 
I don't see how this here would be type 4 when he needs to use an ability to rewrite what happened as opposed to his existence defying it.
 
Wait, something wrong here, why defy predestined events come off as Acausality 4???. Nothing suggested Sora operating on a different cause and effect system??. Power of Waking is just Causality Manipulation and Acausality is a state of being power not some hax
 
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