King Hassan Immortality add-in?

[Embracetophats]

In light of content revealed in his Craft Essence, which is meant to give background information into each character, I would like to ask your opinion on whether King Hassan should be granted a form of immortality contingent on the age/mystery of his opponents.

The Craft Essence states: "No longer are there any teachings to impart, nor a man to preach them.

The swordsman became an envoy of Heaven, his works surpassing mere mastery.

For years and years, he watched the evening bell toll. His life could no longer be called a life, as it ventured into the realm of natural phenomena.

In the tranquil valley, the line blurs between Life and Death. The swordsman who long embraced Death lives on, even as he dies.

He persists, as does the legend of the Old Man of the Mountain, whom he created."


To me, this seems like a callback to a somewhat old part of nasuverse lore, which has to do with how things that have existed for a certain ammount of time, become a new form of existence and are unable to be killed except by older/more mysterious beings. The greatest example of this are the dead apostole ancestors, but it is also brought up regarding the characters of Lugh Beowulf and Alice's ploys.


"The twenty seven ancestors, the greatest beings among the Dead Apostles. More than half of them had been sealed by the Church.' 'The sealed Ancestors were locked within sarcophagi by the Holy Church. Since they could not be completely destroyed, they were essentially permanently imprisoned. The covens of the sealed Ancestors still existed today. They were working hard either attempting to save the Ancestors or destroy them."



"Those within the first ten ranks cannot be defeated by normal concepts, as they, themselves, are fantasy much like members of the Phantasmal Species. Those who live in fantasy can only be defeated by fantasy that is greater than themselves. Furthermore, for those who have reached the Ancestor class, it is possible to exist as a phantom even after losing the physical body."


'and while i am at it, the quotes worth noting regarding Lugh Beowulf: "'He is a three thousand year class Mystery who is a natural enemy to magi of the AD calendar, since no modern magecraft has comparable Mystery as him and therefore cannot damage him. He can be affected by pure magic power, but magecraft is completely negated."

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask this person for input here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:Ramesses_the_Sun_King

 

[Embracetophats]

You can ask this person for input here:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:Ramesses_the_Sun_King

i have no idea how to do so

 

[Antvasima]

I will handle it then.

 

[Reppuzan]

I sort of doubt it.

First of all, in order to be summoned as a Servant, you have to be dead or your story otherwise over. The only exceptions to this rule are Divine Spirits (who cheat the system by being summoned into human bodies) and Merlin who can explicitly use his magic to cheat the system.

Hassan can be summoned as a conventional Servant, thus he can't be still alive.

In addition, I feel as though you're reading the text improperly. As you stated above:

"The swordsman who long embraced Death lives on, even as he dies. He persists, as does the legend of the Old Man of the Mountain, whom he created."

He lives on in legend as the founder of the Hassan-i-Sabbah, but I don't think he's still alive after the sect fell apart with its final leader, Hundred-Faced Hassa.

It's safer to say no than yes, but I would like to hear Ramesses' opinion on this first.

 

[Embracetophats]

i can understand how you would reach that conclusion, but i will retort once and then let you all decide.


A- we dont know if he wasnt alive during the babylon chapter, furthermore, his character lines in FGO either strongly imply or downright state that he hopes he intends die for good after this, this implication is not normal for a servant, since, well, they cant actually die because of the throne but as servants or as humans, originally, they shouldnt feel any difficulty in dying to begin with


"Bond Level 5

"It hath been a long journey, and a good memory. Verily, a fine, fine end to my life. My contractor, once this battle is over, I should like to disappear for good."


B- actually, Merlin doesnt use magic for it, he actually uses the Independent Manifestation skill. Gilgamesh also uses it in Extella. This is usually the ability of the Beasts and while we dont know much about the Grands, they are stated as being the opposite of the Beasts, who exist to fight them, so that silimarity/connection and given how other living humans have managed to make use of that skill, indicates that it is possible for someone to go anywhere they want across space and time without the need to be summoned from the Throne, not to mention that the description for the skill downright states that it doesnt require someone to be dead in order to appear whenever they want to and that the version of theirs that appears in this fashion is both a puppet and immortal "Independent Manifestatio (Õìÿþï¼ÚíòþÅ¥, Tandoku Kenge?) is a capacity that permits the unrestricted projection and materialization of the soul (Ú¡éÒü«þë®Þ│¬Õîû, Tamashii no Bishitsu-ka?), permitting the skillholder to freely manifest within a time period and location of one's choosing. Being that the skillholder's soul fundamentally exists in a place beyond the boundaries of life and death and the limits of the History of Man, time travel may be enacted at will; and the projected flesh is in essence an immortal puppet controlled by the skillholder's consciousness. ."


C- Scathach is also bullshit retcon immortal and she can be summoned because there was a timeline in which she actually managed to die, but that was a rarity.


D- "The swordsman who long embraced Death lives on, even as he dies. He persists, as does the legend of the Old Man of the Mountain, whom he created." they make a distinction between the enduring of his existence and the endurance of his myth


E- in FGO, he introduces himself as Utnapishtim, who was immortal and is one of the few characters we know is immortal, like Scathach or Saint Germain for example. Now, you can argue that that is just a fake name, but at this point, much of his history is still unknown (king hassan, i mean), so the possibility of this being true aint low.


F- "For years and years, he watched the evening bell toll. His life could no longer be called a life, as it ventured into the realm of natural phenomena." to me, this tells me that his existance is something other than human, at a core level, due to how long he has remained in the world, a condition which other nasuverse characters suffer from. Furthermore, it would explain how his Battle Continuation is EX rank.


Getting shot full of arrows isnt anything for Achilles, as it barely decreased his strenght, even when he was shot in the ribcage early into his first face to face fight with Chrion and his is A.


Alkeides has A+ and the guy managed to do things like endure Hydra Poison, which can **** over gods and bypassed his God Hand and was burning him from the inside out and still built a pire for himself. Not only that, but in Strange Fake, he takes dozens of stab wounds from claws and eye lasers, which are described as "reaching all the way into his guts" at once and just gets up, no ***** given like he didnt even take damage.


that is A+. the scale still goes to A+++ and then to EX and that only means it goes past the ability of the scale to measure, so it isnt even an actual rank. Heck, sometimes EX rank is given to things that you cant even classify using the rank system at all, from how abnormal they are, like EX rank mad enhancement, the EX rank NP that makes INFINITE RICE and the Labyrinth with 0 offensive of defensive power, which is why it is abnormal.


in light of this, i very much doubt that someone with EX rank battle continuation can have a body that isnt weirdly abnormal

 

[Embracetophats]

ok, that was all. i will not intervene with your verdict any further

 

[KamiYasha]

I think the best would be leave it as "Possible" Immortality type "x".

He was a Grand Servant during Babylon, aside the vessel...Grand Servants are still Heroic Spirits, so in one way or another, he must have died.

Although, due to the lack of the exact ifo if he posses that or no, i would say it's better wait for more info. (Maybe the next Material Book)

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Ramesses said that he was too busy to handle this.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ant

Regardless, as KamiYasha said, Hassan was not alive during the events of the game as he was first summoned as Grand Assassin before throwing away his title to join the battle at Babylonia.

Hence I'm putting this notion of immortality into doubt.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that the suggestion is invalid then. Should we close this thread?

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Alright got some spare time. I think that he shouldn't get immortality.

You have to read his Bond CE and Bond Lines to properly understand what it means. It does not refer to him as being a literal undying existence. It says that due to him being God's servant and killing so much he has transcended humanity in skill and become something like a natural phenomena, during life that can't be called alive anymore. But yet he continues to persist and do his job, his bond 5 line is pretty much him showing his humanity and thanking you for understanding his duty.

EX battle continuation has nothing to do with the mystery he has. Battle Continuation is an ability representing the strong will to stay alive on the battlefield.

I don't understand what you are saying about Mystery. Servants and Dead Apostle Ancestors are both beings that live in Mystery, and they are on a comparable level of strength and mystery assuming you ignore the top 5 DAA, hence why they can fight each other pretty evenly.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Like most things involving Babylonia and EoR Servants, "wait for GO Mats" is the answer here. I mean, there are some loopholes in the Servant summoning system that could justify KH being summoned despite being immortal. After all, Gilgamesh did manage to summon Merlin, despite the latter still being alive. And correct me if i'm wrong, but the explanation for that was along the lines of "Gilgamesh summoned Merlin to a time before he was born, and that technically counts as being dead so it works", wasn't it? I could see something similar happening with King Hassan.

So, for now, i don't think he should have immortality, but maybe in the future.

 

[Embracetophats]

Like most things involving Babylonia and EoR Servants, "wait for GO Mats" is the answer here. I mean, there are some loopholes in the Servant summoning system that could justify KH being summoned despite being immortal. After all, Gilgamesh did manage to summon Merlin, despite the latter still being alive. And correct me if i'm wrong, but the explanation for that was along the lines of "Gilgamesh summoned Merlin to a time before he was born, and that technically counts as being dead so it works", wasn't it? I could see something similar happening with King Hassan.
So, for now, i don't think he should have immortality, but maybe in the future.

sounds fair. the most notable and direct loophole would be a case like Scathach who has immortality due to circumstances similar to Ciel's.


as for Merlin, that was his initial excuse, then he gave another about the burning of history being in an advanced state letting him cross the boundary between babylon and avalon (wait, merlin, how does that make any sense? you just said you didnt exist in this time, so distance shouldnt matter), before finally admitting "yeah, i am bullshitting. I have Independent Manifestation, so i can show up whenever and wherever I want and still be counted as a Servant despite this just being a tangible astral projection"

 

[NotEvenHuman]

No, Merlin did get summoned as an actual Servant in Babylonia, but got killed by Tiamat, which is why he had to use IM to go back with his real body.

 

[Embracetophats]

No, Merlin did get summoned as an actual Servant in Babylonia, but got killed by Tiamat, which is why he had to use IM to go back with his real body.

we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

that excuse was retconned later into the chapter, same as the Tiamat myth. here is the description of his skill:

"A Skill that permits unsupported manifestation into reality. Originally, Merlin should not be summonable in the capacity of a Heroic Spirit; for, irrelevant of the future that comes to pass, his death shall not occur. Ergo, to serve a Master in the capacity of a Servant is in essence a fulfillment of his personal desires. To put it in other words, he acts as a Servant merely as a part of his hobby. For the purpose of making his fantasies as reality, he has by personal effort obtained this Skill, even though it would be normally restricted to a certain unique Class -- making use of it to the end of pretending to be summoned as a Servant.

if you still choose not to believe my words, then there is probably nothing i can do to convince you

 

[Antvasima]

Since everybody knowledgeable seem to have rejected this, I will close the thread.