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KH Profile Rules Issues

Bobsican said:
Well, by that logic Pete wouldn´t be able to scale to Maleficent, unless there´s something I may be missing, and it´s pointed out that Oogie just has terrible memory, even forgetting of Maleficent ressurecting him and all, so that´s not a point really.

No, Fairy Godmother is the one that frees them from their gem, Sora just uses his Keyblade for the actual summon part, and Donald and Goofy disappearing while using them is easily game mechanics (system limitations and all), as summons like Genie never were a gem to begin with.

And in KHII things turn even weirder as "While most of the summon spells on the first game gave a temporary body to the soul contained within the gem, the charm actually teleports the summonable character directly from their world", meaning that they actually come out of their own world and are aware of that, as Jiminy´s journal entries for them points out, of which a similar thing happens to the KHIII ones, contrary to what you would think due to their looks (WoG actually states that they were made like that to avoid issues with Disney on how to portray the characters, IIRC)
Click to expand...
Except Pete has been shown to perfectly move around in other worlds, manip and mess with data worlds and fight in areas like the world that never was while none of the disney villains have done that. I just correlated what the terrible memory means.

What she does is make them usable, they're still summon gems. Sora himself needs to use the keyblade and give their spirits form. I never brought up Donald or Goofy so no idea why you even thought that was neccessary to add, Genie and Tinker Bell are the only 2 summons that work differently then the summon gems because they're not summon gems and they're either traveling with Sora or Sora can call to them.

Thank you for just proving why KH 3 summon characters are in fact not the same as KH 2 summons. The fact that KH 2 summons maintain a clear distinct form to their regular counterpart vs. KH 3 summons which are clearly far more different already shows they're not the same. WoG stating that doesn't change anything and I need a direct quote of that.
 
No, I basically said that they are the same characters, just like in KHII.

As for the quote...

"In what might seem like a counter-intuitive approach, Square's found that the more outlandish a change its wants to make to a character, the more likely it is to be approved with little fuss by Disney. The Lion King's Simba, for example, appears as what co-director Tai Yasue calls a "fire entity". It seems like a tall order, but Yasue says they "didn't have a lot of difficulty."

The point is that, if you're changing the character enough, it's no longer imitating Disney. "He's not Simba", he explains. "So we showed Disney our drawings and everything, and shared that, and we got that approved. But at the same time, it wasn't the real character. So I think, in that respect, it was easier."

BTW, in-context, "real character" means in correlation to how it feels, not that KHIII Simba is "another" Simba from the past games.
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help after you are done.
 
Bobsican said:
BTW, in-context, "real character" means in correlation to how it feels, not that KHIII Simba is "another" Simba from the past games.
Click to expand...
The above also applies to the "He´s not Simba" part.

In fact, Jiminy´s Journal entries for them in KHIII point out that they are the same characters they meeted before.
 
I'm going to need you to show me that it means that in context, cause I don't see where in context that's what it's saying.

All that it states for Simba is:

"The Lion King (1994)

A friend that answered Sora's call through the power of the Heartbinder."

That would just further show they're being amped and it's not their physical selves.
 
No, the Heartbinder is used for the call itself. Them being amped is another thing.

As for the context:

"In what might seem like a counter-intuitive approach, Square's found that the more outlandish a change its wants to make to a character, the more likely it is to be approved with little fuss by Disney. The Lion King's Simba, for example, appears as what co-director Tai Yasue calls a "fire entity". It seems like a tall order, but Yasue says they "didn't have a lot of difficulty."
 
The power of the heartbinder shows them in a completely different form and Sora holds it to his heart. It's clear what the implication is here.

All that quote states is that Disney won't fuss if they change the design, doesn't state them not making the character the character.
 
My point is, Simba in KHIII and Simba in past games are the same character, them looking different or being amped is another thing.
 
What's your point? Do keep in mind, those weaker Heartless are probably downscaled from consuming the Heart of a World (Or Twilight-Xemnas feat but lol scaling fodder to a final boss.) & also, keep in mind the high end to low end ratio of the values for the tiers, as is listed on the Attack Potency page:

Even at maximum 4-C, maximum High 4-C is about 715.59 times stronger than that, & maximum High 4-C is about 881.86 billion times weaker than maximum 4-B (Solar System Level).

Being generous and supposing maximum 4-C for even the weakest of Heartless, that's 881,860,000,000 * 715.59 = 631,050,197,400,000. And that's only maximum 4-B/baseline 4-A.

Meaning even several hundred trillion stronger-than-average Heartless aren't very close to Universal. And I'd doubt there's even several hundred trillion Heartless in a single entity, like, say, the big Demon Tide at KH3's Keyblade Graveyard.
 
Imaginym, where did any of that come from? This is about getting rid of the disney profiles that don't follow our standards. Heartless don't even have anything to do with this.
 
Sorry. I guess it was a bit presumptuous of me to assume some such premise was involved. I can remove the reply if preferred.
 
No, what I meant is that those that can´t scale to Sora and company can just scale to the heartless they can keep up with instead (4-C).

As we can already know that they are separate counterparts from the "mainstream" ones, and we never really cared about author intent when scaling stuff anyways, them just staying as they are is still to be considered.
 
Ah yes. That might be reasonable. Shame in KH2, I can recall Shadows dodging Kairi's Keyblade swings, but not her dodging their attacks. Still for KH3 Kairi & other weaker characters, scaling them to the weaker Heartless, or maybe Nobodies, Dream Eaters or Unversed might be fine.
 
I agree with that overall, but more input is needed.

And with that, I can finally be working on draft profiles for KH fodder.

For starters, it seems Shadow (the Heartless) will have to be combined with the Demon Tide page, for obvious reasons, I´ll ask for a rename later when I´m done with the edits.
 
Okay, so I checked and normal basic fodder Shadows are 4-C and that's the biggest piece of bullshit I've heard in a long while, and I'm not just talking about in KH or even the wiki.

"A single Shadow can absorb the "heart" of a "world", taking it down to darkness in the process, which normally include at least an Earth to Sun distance"

That's... blatantly false. Heartless doing this always do it in large swarms, there is no instance or evidence that it's done by individual Heartless, and even then I'm 99% sure that's just chain reaction stuff and not something they can do by itself.
 
I mean, look at the entirety of KHI, Cal

Also, Matt seems to have deleted it, which likely was too much as it could have been just reverted to the Demon Tide instead.
 
I also think the profiles for Shadows and Demon Tide should not have been deleted. The reasoning given was also "wank", which I think seems like an early conclusion.

At the very least, could scale them very far down from Twilight Xemnas, being part of a swarm that destroys a world over time, or discussing other feats.
 
I agree, but yeah, first the tier for a "normal" Shadow has to be discussed and accepted first, then we can just scale those that can´t scale to Sora and others at all to them.

So far, what s to be brought up for a Shadow´s tier? Currently the 4-C rating seems to be debatable now.

Good thing I had a backup blog just in case
 
Debatable? No. Outright wrong. And yes, I've looked at KH1. It was both, a full on swarm and a chain reaction for Destiny Islands.
 
If it falls as chain reaction (aka, not scalable to AP), what other stuff is there around to scale them to? Early game Sora is a no, of course.
 
@Matthew

Poisoning the well fallacy

Anyways, let´s just continue, the page can just be redone better in either case.
 
I assume you consider backscaling to Twilight Xemnas not an option for Heartless? If so, I understand, since TX is a Nobody & a final boss, unlike the fodder Heartless Shadows.

Also, what of KH1's destruction of Destiny Islands? IIRC, when Ansem (In the brown cloak) said "the door is open", that was meant to indicate when the Door to the Heart of Destiny Islands was exposed.

It wasn't THAT long between the door being opened and Destiny Island's destruction, right? How much does the matter of it being a chain reaction interfere?

Otherwise, yeah, we'll have to find other feats.
 
It only took minutes at most IIRC, Imaginym.

But yeah, regardless of the timeframe, as it´s done via hax and a chain reaction of the world just falling to darkness due to lacking a heart... other feats will be needed instead.
 
I assume we should discuss those other feats to tier Heartless & other "fodder" by in another thread? Or is discussing it here fine?
 
Well, this thread could be to see which profiles shouldn´t scale to Sora and others at all while the fodder stuff could realy use another thread for it, so making another thread for that isn´t a bad idea, so this can go somewhere overall.
 
Okay, so after seeing this (Which is a bit outdated/could use a bit more research, BTW), I can see the issue here now.

Basically, if the rule is removed, everyone and their mother would scale to the tier 4 stuff, which is obviously too much.

Anyways, the only characters that have profiles that can't leave its homeworld to scale Sora, scale to someone that could actually leave its homeworld or just scale directly to Hercules/Hades in some way are:

James P. Sullivan (Kingdom Hearts)

Mike Wazowski (Kingdom Hearts)

Tron/Rinzler (Kingdom Hearts)

Tarzan (Kingdom Hearts)

It's to be noted that Sulley managed to restrain Vanitas with no problem, so I'm not sure of his and Mike's (As he should somewhat scale to Sulley with no issues) case, same with Tron as he is explicitly "another" Tron from the main one, being copied to a Radiant Garden computer and all, and Rinzler could remember his adventures with Sora in the past (Even if it was when it was too late), meaning that Tron and Rinzler should be safe.

But for Tarzan... yeah, there's really nothing that supports tier 4 to him beyond scaling him to a Heartless, for now I would just put those that can't scale to Sora and company to just Unknown rather than being deleted, as I have planned another CRT for them to just scale to the Heartless they can indeed keep up with.

There's also Woody and Buzz, but as they are stated to be explicitly in a "data" world, which explains how they get all the new powers and so on, which they even point out, they are quite an exception to this due to the context.
 
Again, anyone that hasn't been able to break the rules of the world shouldn't scale. Only Olympus because they have the feat itself, and th eones that broke out of the rules. Sully restraining Vanitas is huge PIS, I don't see why Tron would scale from what you mentioned, Woody and Buzz are shocked by a feat that creates an alternate world, and the only amp they get is that Buzz gets legitimate lasers, they're still depicted as toys with no real powers. There's literal puzzles they can't get past because "Oh blocks are in the way".
 
Well, if we only scale the ones that have been able to leave their world there would be issues with scaling, say, Mulan to Mushu, hence why I think just scaling Mulan to Mushu for example should be fine.

I can totally see Sulley restraining Vanitas being PIS, but then again, that is Lifting Strenght, not AP, but I get your point of them otherwise just not having anything legitimate to scale to beyond Sora and others.

Tron is unique in that the computer he was in was making Heartless for the "real" world, which everyone considered as a thread, but I can´t say the same for Rinzler, who would scale to Dream Eaters anyways (As Meow Wow and Komory Bat are among the weakest Dream Eaters, which already scale to Sora and Riku),

Woody and Buzz have never seen stuff like that before, so that is to be expected, they also get the capability to summon a rocket, which they even joke about a bit, as for the blocks thing, well that would fall as Lifting Strenght, not AP.
 
Summons are amped and that's Mushu's spirit along with Sora doing the feats, not Mushu himself. Also why would Mulan scale to her guardian spirit

If it's lifting strength then it doesn't scale to his AP regardless.

Uh no, them needing gigas' to blast away the blocks is not lifting strength, that's AP.
 
Spirit? Can you explain? Mushu even remembers all of that and points it out right at the start when they meet him again in the Land of Dragons.

Edit: Oh, now I remember, well Mushu still had a physical form and all, he wasn´t just a soul when summoned, and managed to go back to his homeworld after Ansem´s defeat. with no issues.

Yeah, then Woody and Buzz have nothing to really scale to.

Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency, them being unable to get them out of the way doesn´t mean that they can´t keep up with tier 4 beings.

And again, I already admitted that Sulley and Mike really have nothing to scale to overall.
 
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